Panel Upgrade

[Zapped]

Hi, here is my service entrance switch:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/marilynwhite/swith.jpg
-80A fuses
-red wires feed 20A sub panel for flat rate water heater which I don?t want anymore
-bottom neutral lug has neutral from original 8 circuit sub panel, a ground wire that is a piece of #14/2 and heads out the top of the box to a nearby copper cold water pipe and a white wire of about 8 gauge that is bonded to the side of the box on the upper right
I would like to do the following:
-remove all sub panels and install a new Siemens panel connected to the service switch with NMD#4/3 cable. Here?s an illustration:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/marilynwhite/Electric2.jpg
Connections in the new panel:
-#4 black and red to the 100A main breaker
-#4 white and bare copper to lugs at the top of the neutral buses on each side
Connections in old service switch:
-#4 black and red conductors to fused lugs
-#4 white and bare copper conductors to lower neutral lug along with existing bonding wire to box and a new #6 ground wire connected to the water service
Problem: Neutral lug would have 2x#4 wires, 1x#6 wire and 1x#8 wire and I don?t think they?ll all fit or pass inspection. What should I do?
Any input would be much appreciated.

[electricguy]

Its looks Like you are trying to do a service upgrade, In British Columbia that would not pass Code at all. You haven't taken into consideration the main service conductors.When A customer calls for an upgrade we have to change service riser,meter base, and lateral to service main breaker.PLEASE Call an electrician ,Looks like you have purchased a panel already , but did you do a service calculation to see if you are within the parameters for that panel.

[Zapped]

Thanks for your reply Doug.
I had an electrician from my local utility come to get me off the flat rate hot water but he couldn't because there was nothing else to power the heater from.
He did suggest a new panel and putting 100A fuses in the service switch. I believe 100A is fine for a 1200 sq. ft. bungalow with no A/C or electric heating loads.
My meter says 100A and the lines from the pole must be OK since I have 80A metered and 20A unmetered. I guess I need to verify that the conductors from the meter to the switch are big enought to carry 100A instead of 80.
Perhaps I'll have to have an electrician look at it again. I do have a permit to do the work myself but don't really want to pay for multiple inspections at $107 a crack.
Z

[jeeper]

This maybe a little late but here in Sask.
1) The main fuses can be changed to 100 amp as long as the disconnet is rated for 100 amp. which it probably is. 2) The conductors to the service connection from the utitity are rated at 100 amp. Or just leave the fuses and just change the secondary panel after the main disconnect. If the main disconnect is not being rewired then the service components are not being touched so no upgrades required. The secondary panel you have pictured is a service rated panel and may be used as a stand alone panel, so you may chose to dump the 80 amp main disconnect and just use the new panel. But then the entire service (meter socket, point of connection, etc) will need upgrading. If you install the new panel after the older main disconnect as pictured then a few changes will be required from you drawing. First remove the neutral to enclosure bonding strap as the neutral can only be bonded in the first main disconnect/panel. Also the ground wire (yellow one) between the two panels should be used to bond the two enclosures together only. Lastly #3 awg copper is rated for 100 amp fuses not #4 awg. There are a zillon other rules that are necessary to be aware of, so if not positive with what you are doing hire a professional. You could be making your insurance company uneasy. Last note I promise, in Sask an owner's service permit is a one time $50.00 fee as all electrical work is required to be done under the authority of an electrical permit. Good luck

[Zapped]

Thnks very much for your detailed reply jeeper. Not too late at all.
Yes the switch is rated 100A.
I guess I would need to aquire fittings to bond the #3 ground conductor to each of the enclosures?
Here is my revised diagram:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/marilynwhite/Revised.jpg
The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority charged me $107 +GST for a permit and inspection and will charge the same again for each subsequent vist required. With this in mind I will hold back until I'm pretty confident in getting it right the first time.

[jeeper]

Yikes! Ontario permit fees are high, I guess this shows we may need a fee increase in Sask. last one was in 1994. But it seems as if our last real pay increase was also long ago. Ours includes as many vists as needed.
The bond wire will not need to be a #3 just the hots and neutral follow Table 16 #8 I think(sorry my CEC is at work) but a #6 awg copper will work for sure and should fit existing lugs. As the sub panel is after the main disconnect a non service wire maybe used such as #3 awg NMD cable which will have all cables in it. This will also be the cheapest and quickest method. You also may want to look at this other CEC forum as it is moderated by an Ontario Inspector and there is nothing better then getting information right from the source.
http://electrical-contractor.net/cgi...opics&number=3

[Zapped]

Thanks for another helpful reply jeeper.
I will post to the other board you mentioned in case anyone there has more to add.
So I'll use some #3 NMD cable between the two boxes. I assume the bare wire in this cable will be #3 or is it smaller? The lug on the enclosure of the switch has the bonding wire from the lower neutral lug in it. I nedd to get the bare wire from the #3 cable bonded to this enclosure as well. Using this same lug?
The new panel has no lug to attach the bare wire to. The bonding was the metal strap onto the neutral bus that I need to remove. I am left with 2 neutral lugs only so I guess in need to buy some sort of retrofit lug?

So I'm still needing to figure this part out.

[jeeper]

No the bare wire in the NMD cable will not be a #3 but is size as required as a bond conductor. Yes just attach it on the same lug at the top of the box where the bond from the neutral attaches. Then attach it to the enclosure bonding lugs (long silver ones) on either side of the neutral bar in the second panel.

[Zapped]

Thanks jeeper,
I think I've finally got it now.
Unfortunately I'm so busy right now I may not get to it for a week or 3. I will let you know what happens when the inspetor comes.
I looked at the other board but it specifically asked that DIY (do-it-yourself) questions not be posted. Perhaps the same applies to this board and I just didn't read the rules very closely when I signed up.
Thanks again for all your help jeeper. I gave you 5 stars.