George "W"

[rotten]

Actually on a side note.. when i think of my dad who was drafted into the marines during vietnam at 18 i cant believe how young that is. Im 26 and i still feel like a kid and im almost 10 years older than he was. thats a trip.. everyone he was there with was 18 19 20 thats just so fucking young.
I really dont think people realize what war really is unless they have been in one. You come back from the cause and 10 years later no one gives a shit and they're stuck with all kinds of life long shit and all the patriotic "lets go to war and kick ass" sentiment all the rest of society had at the time is long gone. Course in vietnam it was never really there.. but thats another story

<font color="#0000FF" size="1">[ February 07, 2003 03:48 AM: Message edited by: rotten ]</font>

[Moby]

Fact : The only people that really know what and where the arsenal is located, are Saddam and his chiefs of staff.

Fact : The Middle East is a hot bed of terrorist activity and the only thing that controls it in Iraq is the fear of death from Saddams regime.

Fact : War causes chaos, confusion and things go missing.

Okay now here's a scenario for you ...George W and his posse ride into Baghdad and assume control...terrorist groups that previously were outlawed start gaining ground and support...who will know if some weaponry (conventional, biological or chemical) goes missing. Look what happened after the break up of Yugoslavia it was a mess...look at what's happening right now in Afghanistan...I'm not saying Saddam's an innocent victim, as we all know he isn't. I do believe that the Bush administration is calling the shots and using Blairs government to sell it to the rest of the world and the U.N.

Regarding the oil theory..isn't it a coincidence that the tempo for invasion moved up a beat when the crisis in Venezuela pushed the price of oil up.

In their haste America and Britain may well open a pandora's box of terrorism.

I have no idea what the answer for this is...Saddam pays about as much attention to the U.N as Bush
does.

I do think though that a more comprehensive list of what is there, is essential.

[Moby]

This is off topic I know but... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="times new roman">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#00003C"><font size=2 face="times new roman">The fact is that the whole world bitches about American arrogance but runs like hell to us when they need money or need to be bailed out when they get invaded. Australians and most of the south pacific would probably be eating with chopsticks if it weren't for the use of the atomic weapon in WWII. And Europe would be knee deep in sauerkraut if we hadn't shown up there too. It may not be a happy fact to admit but its a true one... don't want us in your business... quit asking us for money.

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If Pearl Harbour had not been attacked by the Japanese on December 8th 1941, the USA would not have joined the war to "bail out" the rest of the world.

Perhaps if they'd have joined in 1939 millions of Jews wouldn't have died...Or even the convoys that ran up and down the eastern seaboard of the US...convoys that were torpedoed as no navy guard was asigned....The head of the U.S navy thought it was beneath them apparently...one more thing...

Europe would be speaking Russian not German

Ironically the Battle of Bulge which was the USA's finest hour during WW2, had more to do with the German war machine running out of fuel than anything else.

If you don't believe me watch the movie with Henry Fonda.

There's a great line in it.

Countries are not evil...Only men are evil.

<font color="#0000FF" size="1">[ February 07, 2003 06:12 AM: Message edited by: ((((M?B?)))) ]</font>

<font color="#0000FF" size="1">[ February 07, 2003 06:24 AM: Message edited by: ((((M?B?)))) ]</font>

[Annabananabelle]

I'm not saying that we didn't have our reasons for the war in the pacific.. I'm also not saying that we shouldn't have gone into europe.. both of causes were noble and justifed.. however.. those were just the examples I gave because most of the "America as the Great Satan" crap was coming from persons deriving from those nations.. the fact remains that foerign countries are constantly seeking US support... not saying we shouldn't help.. but just pointing out that they can't have it both ways... ya can't run to us and hide in our skirts when you want something and then tell us to get our noses out of it when you abuse the aid given. ( understand please that I'm using the word "you" in a very liberal sense, not pointing to any nation in particular ).

there is no easy answer.. thats all my point was.. I can't defend everything Bush does. I can't defend a lot of it.. but I can't in good conscience say that its all wrong either. Just because he may be cleaning up Daddy's mess does not negate the fact there is still a mess to clean up.

and Rotten darling, the draft doesn't work like that.. all men ages 18 to 34 are eligible in random order. Older men often have a better chance of trying to gain exemptions is all.. because they are most likely to have families and such.. but even that isn't a gaurantee of safety...

[heidi!]

When I say "Americans this and that"...when it comes to War Im speaking of the American goverment...Not the American people....some of the closest people to me in the world are American...So I hope I dont come off sounding anti american...because Im not.
With that said....the scare of all this comes from the thought of weapons of mass destruction being used...Im not sure when we look at the Iraq people if we realize they are just like us in many ways...they have kids....they love..they have feelings....they are more scared than any of us.
And I can assure you most of them love their life more than they hate Americans.
I also agree with rotten..(did I just say that)..its not the leaders goin to fight this war its the sons and daughters ..sisters and brothers....and those are whom I feel the most fear for
I'm Canadian.....Im not from a country that comes running to the Americans for money or security as annabelle put it...but we are a country that is neighbors with the U.S....We have a loyalty to our "brother" as such...and Im sure there is pressure there to join them if they go to war...

I know sadam has to be stopped...I dont know if war is the only answer...although I think it will happen no matter how much its discussed.
but yanno......I'm Canadian......the peace loving country......we're indifferent ...Rotten tells me... [img]wink.gif[/img]

[imzredhead]

<font color="#0000FF" size="1">[ February 22, 2003 10:54 AM: Message edited by: imzredhead ]</font>

[rotten]

annabelle dont talk to me about how the draft works.
especially in a condescending way.. im not saying they only draft 18 year olds the fact is 18 year olds and young kids are the ones fighting.

Im talking about the marines and the army not the airforce or the regular division of the navy that are nice and comfy in the back.

<font color="#0000FF" size="1">[ February 07, 2003 03:35 PM: Message edited by: rotten ]</font>

[rotten]

On the opposite side these americans who put down their own goverment as in saying how we're worse than hitler. that they hate this country etc piss me off more than any other group. I can see other countries bitching cus thats what they do.. no country likes being told what to do. But the ones that are here... im all for sending them to whichever goverment they adore so much.

I hate this topic really and ill stay off of it now.. theres so many different issues but most of all i just feel apathetic. Towards the people who are gonna die in the middle east.. its hard to feel sympathy for people who are so different from us. Im not saying this to justify it but its the cold hard truth. We say they're people just like us.. but i think their differences are what stick out more. Like it or not one reason this is gonna happen is cus our our collective apathy towards them losing their lives.. as well as some hatred towards them. And none of it is completely wrong.

who knows..theres just too much shit here to really form a solid opinion one way or the other.. i only see flaws in certain viewpoints but really that gets me nowhere either.

[Australis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="times new roman">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#00003C"><font size=2 face="times new roman"> You can take Sept. 11th lightly if you want, the terrorists deserve to be brought to justice...and wherever the terrorists are, they need to be taken care of or its going to happen again...

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Far from taking the events of sept 11 lightly i was, as every person with an ounce of humanity was, appalled at the morally abhorrent actions of the terrorists that day. I actually agreed with the american government and military going into afganistan to try to bring those responsible to justice. I can't say that i agree with the way all the problems of afganistan have been dealt with since the US military entered the country, but then i'd be the first to admit that there are no easy answers to that situation.
People also need to realize that far from being the leader of a terrorist organisation, Saddam is in fact the leader of a country (whether we like it or not) and as such there are certain protocols that must be observed in dealing with the problems that exist there.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="times new roman">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#00003C"><font size=2 face="times new roman"> Aurora's comments tend to rub me the wrong way, another reason why I've stayed away *L* She seems very "anti" American, and seems to love to group us all into one big Bush support group....

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I'd also like to add that i am NOT "anti-american" *L* when i referred to the US in previous posts i would have thought it was obvious that i was referring to the US government & military. If you took my comments out of context and then decided that i was being racist before clarifying the meaning, not much i can do about that, but i might suggest that in these politically heated times it pays to check before accusing someone of racial bigotry.
I just happen to think that the UN alone should have the final say as to when and who enters iraq. This is after all what the UN is supposed to do here. I also think that the US should not enter iraq if a force is sent there (and i think a force should be sent remember) mostly because the iraqi government are trying to accuse the US of just being after the oil. Something that has occured to more than a few people even before Saddam mentioned it. Now if the US then aren't sent in... what argument has Saddam then? none.
I believe that the US of all western countries are probably the least tolerated by the arabic and muslim communities and that and the fact that the US government ARE a bit too hot for a fight, was my reasoning for the US being told to stay home. Diplomatically it would be the solution that would be most acceptable, i feel, to the majority of the international community.

As for a pre-emptive strike against iraq... NO COUNTRY should be allowed to get away with that one. It just encourages exactly what is now happening with korea. The koreans are now saying that it is not the perogative of the US alone to make a pre-emptive strike against another country. They are now threatening the US with just such action. The UN alone should have that perogative.

my views might not be shared by everyone but i know that alot of people do share them and alot of american people do to.

most people just want the US to respect the authority of the UN and to wait for direction from them as to what to do next.

As for this:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="times new roman">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#00003C"><font size=2 face="times new roman"> when you said you were only half listening to the news.. you weren't kidding were you...
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yes i was only half listening... BECAUSE the report in question was a CNN report... and i don't read, listen to or watch gutter journalism.

As for the rest of that post... most of it doesn't even deserve the dignity of an answer so i won't comment except to say that i suspect i know where the feeling behind those comments really stems from *L*

for anybody that is seriously interested... i get my information mostly from the sessions of parliment that i sit through every day and the hansard ( the transcipts from the sessions of the australian house of representatives) can be viewed here. FEB 4 & 5 are the ones to look at for the debates on iraq.
http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/hansreps.htm

They certainly make interesting reading and i also believe that they are very indicative of the mood of the australian people as a whole.

<font color="#0000FF" size="1">[ February 07, 2003 08:47 PM: Message edited by: (((Aurora Australis))) ]</font>

[imzredhead]

<font color="#0000FF" size="1">[ February 22, 2003 10:53 AM: Message edited by: imzredhead ]</font>