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http://MichaelMoore.com/2001_0912.html http://MichaelMoore.com/2001_0914.html http://MichaelMoore.com/2001_0915.html http://MichaelMoore.com/2001_0917.html http://MichaelMoore.com/2001_0919.html http://MichaelMoore.com/2001_0922.html
You don't have to agree with Michael Moore, just understand that he is a well known American who has been asked by foreign countries (and I believe he has turned down most requests) to speak about the Tragedy, while our country ignores him.
What is the point of freedom of speech if no one is listening?
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-Alex
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For those interested, MichaelMoore.com also has a forums section.
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Alex
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Just thought I'd post the blow by blow comments from a topic post that I posted here and on the Michael Moore Forum...
-Alex
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Author
Topic: Some Sad Math About the Afghan War....
Alex1111
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posted 10-28-2001 01:07 AM
We may have already spent 100-200 billion dollars fighting the War in Afghanistan.
Meanwhile, we aren't feeding and sheltering the Afghan refugees who got out of the U.S.'s way by
marching to Pakistan before the war started.
This heroic action by the Afghanistan people has allowed us to move against the Taliban in a
much easier manner....the exodus by the Afghani refugees has easily saved our country billions
of dollars AND helped to reduce collateral damage by reducing Afghani civilian targets.
If we don't spend some of the money the Afghani people saved us when they marched out of
Afghanistan, on these same Afghani refugees, we have become just as evil as the Taliban.
Will Afghani deaths in the tens of thousands from starvation and lack of shelter this coming
winter be comparable to our loss in the WTC?
Or were the people in the WTC somehow more innocent, and more "valuable".
Is it possible that one bombing run made by one US airplane costs MORE than what we have
given to the Afghani people who aided our war effort by leaving their own country???
Will that be one of the lasting legacies of the Afghan War.
Will this Sad Math be conveniently covered up by our own media?
-Alex1111
[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Alex1111 ]
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John V
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posted 10-28-2001 01:08 AM
Has anyone notified Alanis Morissette? This seems ironic. Don't you think?
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Alex1111
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posted 10-28-2001 01:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by johnv02139:
Has anyone notified Alanis Morissette? This seems ironic. Don't you think?
Not sure I follow your sentiment.
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John V
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posted 10-28-2001 01:24 AM
I'm saying it's ironic that we will spend the money to kill them but not to feed them.
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Alex1111
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posted 10-28-2001 01:33 AM
Sorry, I mistakenly thought perhaps your original post might be sarcastic.
We're not killing the refugees directly, it's more that we are pretending the marchers don't
exist...
We are killing them by ignoring them.
The Afghan Refugees protested the war in the most peaceful way possible, by leaving their own
country.
And we are leaving them to die in the looming winter...???
What it would cost to save their situation is so profoundly less than what they saved our own
military operation in the region, hasn't anyone in the Bush Administration pointed this out to
President Bush?
[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Alex1111 ]
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frosty
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posted 10-28-2001 01:40 AM
This seems to be a tendancy in the modern western world ...... too many leaders are willing to
spend money to kill people but not to save them .......
if just doesnt get the same support from the redneck greevilvoters
EG John Howard is willing to send soldiers to Afganistan to kill them to crawl to Bush but he is not
willing to spend money to take in Afgan refugees
as to Bush he just wants power, popularity and glory and with what I hear far too many americans
saying he wont get any of those by feeding poor starving Afgans
we are a sick society ........
[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: frosty ]
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Alex1111
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posted 10-28-2001 02:23 AM
What's really bugging me is this should be viewed as a business decision by our Republican
Administration.....1 million Afghani Refugees moved out of the way....
(sound of calculator crunching numbers is heard).....
The U.S. has verifiable cost savings AND less public relations snafus as it relates to our bombing
mistakes because of the million Afghani refugees who left the area and made it easier, safer
and faster for our troops to carry out their mission..
(savings of 5 billion dollars)...
But the noble who are suffering, those who peacefully left the area, the Afghani Refugees, get
none of the savings they helped create.
That's bad business.
(Republican ears prick up at this last statement....they ponder....momentarily...than buy more
stock in missle manufacturing)
[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Alex1111 ]
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babka
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posted 10-28-2001 06:11 PM
Bush has already named it: "fuzzy math."
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Alex1111
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posted 10-28-2001 09:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Alex1111:
What's really bugging me is this should be viewed as a business decision by our
Republican Administration.....1 million Afghanis moved out of the way....
(sound of calculator crunching numbers is heard).....
The U.S. has verifiable cost savings AND less public relations snafus as it relates
to our bombing mistakes because of the million afghani marchers who left the
area and made it easier, safer and faster for our troops to carry out their
mission..
(savings of 5 billion dollars)...
But the noble who are suffering, those who peacefully left the area, get none of
the savings they helped create.
That's bad business.
(Republican ears prick up at this last statement....they
ponder....momentarily...than buy more stock in missle manufacturing)
[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: Alex1111 ]
Or Fuzzy Logic.
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moomba
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posted 10-29-2001 07:00 AM
Yes.The sad math and fuzzy logic will be conveniently covered up by the mass media.
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Alex1111
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posted 10-29-2001 02:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moomba:
Yes.The sad math and fuzzy logic will be conveniently covered up by the mass
media.
Or will it? I can see reporters showing human "death camps" filled with the emaciated Afghani
Refugees hanging on.
Then we will save the day ala the "Grinch".
Typical wait till the last minute approach...I want to see the Afhani Refugees helped
IMMEDIATELY...
....not three months from now when many tens of thousands have died and perhaps ten times
that amount suffer serious health issues they will never fully recover from.
On HBO last night, we saw the re-enactment of the U.S. Troops coming into the Holocaust Camps
and just take in the deploreable conditions caused by the "other" side.
What will our excuse be for what is going on RIGHT HERE AND NOW!
I mean, is this not the ultimate in irony, millions of American sit at home watching Television,
misty eyed at the plight the many millions of Jews and other groups suffered in World War II, yet
we are actually laying the seeds RIGHT NOW for the same deploreable conditions!!!!!!!
We know why the Afghanis Refugees, they left to get out of our way....
....we know this saved our military money, time, and decreased the likelihood of "Collateral
Damage", Collateral Damage IS the wild card of any war.
What will we spend dropping bombs to get Osama while simultaneously ignoring the Afghani
Refugees who marched away from their homes to live and die in makeshift tents?
What pittance didn't we spend to spare these poor innocents compared to the amount we have
spent dropping bombs?
[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Alex1111 ]
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Juror
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posted 10-29-2001 03:05 PM
I agree. Bombing the Taliban only strengthened them and pissed off other muslims. If we only
played the physcological battle against the Taliban a bit longer. Meaning the threat of war. I
think this would have dissintegrated the Taliban much quicker than bombs, while we spent more
money on aid to the refugees. also the Muslims pissed off at us would have much less to be
pissed off from if they see that we're really helping them.
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Alex1111
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posted 11-01-2001 09:21 AM
Everytime I hear the Bush administration use words like Resolve...Resolve....Resolve....
I think of the unrequieted Resolve of the suffering and dying Afghani Refugees who moved out
of the way.
If the taliban is recruiting/forcing family men to join them....if these same men forced into the
Taliban then find out the U.S.
is protecting their very own wifes and family...won't the Taliban fall apart more quickly from the
inside???
I mean, we know this, don't we?????
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Dart
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posted 11-01-2001 09:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by frosty:
This seems to be a tendancy in the modern western world ...... too many leaders
are willing to spend money to kill people but not to save them .......
if just doesnt get the same support from the redneck greevilvoters
EG John Howard is willing to send soldiers to Afganistan to kill them to crawl to
Bush but he is not willing to spend money to take in Afgan refugees
as to Bush he just wants power, popularity and glory and with what I hear far too
many americans saying he wont get any of those by feeding poor starving Afgans
we are a sick society ........
[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: frosty ]
Frosty
Why are you so anti-American. You spew out nothing but criticism about America. Just because
you may or may not have gotten sick by an American company in YOUR Country. Try blaming
yourself or your goverments polocies.
I'm not saying our country is perfect, but who's is. It seems like every single day, I read some
post, and there's frosty bashing America again. It get really tiring.
Quit feeling sorry for yourself and do something meaningful with your life.
Dart
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Alex1111
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posted 11-02-2001 10:41 PM
Perhaps we can melt Frosty by not treating the war in Afghanistan as a "contest" to be won.
We can never win the war in Afghanistan if we allow the Afghanistan Refugees to suffer and die
by the thousands.
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Steven Glazer
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posted 11-02-2001 10:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moomba:
Yes.The sad math and fuzzy logic will be conveniently covered up by the mass
media.
Once again, the fact that the refugee crisis is already being covered ... NOT "covered up" ... by
the mass media completely escapes your notice.
I should keep count of the number of times I've heard people claim "the American media will
never report this" when it's on front pages and leading broadcast news reports. It's into double
digits already and I've only been on this board about three weeks.
Here's a hint: If you live in another country, and especially one on the other side of the world, it's
a good bet that you have very little idea of what the American media is and is not reporting. So
how about doing a little research before making a declaration?
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justme
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posted 11-02-2001 11:00 PM
It may not be enough, but we have been spending money helping the Afghan people:
http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/glob...s/01102503.htm
It is information provided by our country, so, you may choose not to believe it.
Additionally, I can tell you that our family personally has not only donated money to
WTC/Pentagon funds, we have also donated money to Doctors Without Borders, a group which
directly offers aid to Afghan refugees.
We have also forwared a letter to Colin Powell which requests more aid/supplies be directed to
the Afghan refugees and the countries that are offering them assistance.
There is always hope when one simply looks for it.
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Steven Glazer
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posted 11-02-2001 11:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Alex1111:
If we don't spend some of the money the Afghani people saved us when they
marched out of Afghanistan, on these same Afghani refugees, we have become
just as evil as the Taliban.
I agree the humanitarian situation is grim. However, there are some important things to take
note of.
First of all, the Afghani exodus hasn't been that large. The Washington Post
reports that only about 80,000 people have fled, quite a bit less than the 1.5 million predicted.
Probably more importantly, your question carries with it the assumption that the US bombing is
somehow responsible for the risk of starvation. I would argue that the brutality of the Taliban
coupled with a years-long drought has much more to do with it.
The Taliban have stolen food meant for the people. They have beaten aid workers and just
before our bombing started were about to put several aid workers on trial for allegedly preaching
Christianity, a capital offense under their theocracy. As the article I linked to above notes, it is
the Taliban who are herding refugees into camps and forcing them to sleep outside rather than
enter Pakistan.
I wonder how concerned you were for the Afghans prior to the beginning of the war. The Taliban
caused more death and suffering than our bombing will, and the people may be much better off
once we're done, if a more benevolent government is established.
So just how is it our fault, exactly?
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Alex1111
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posted 11-02-2001 11:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Glazer:
So just how is it our fault, exactly?
Unlike the WTC, the Refugee situation is happening in slow motion, additional suffering occuring
on a daily basis.
The less Refugees there are, than the easier it should be to protect and care for them.
Otherwise, we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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justme
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posted 11-03-2001 12:00 AM
If anyone is interested in helping, the link is: http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/
Our own pediatrician volunteers for this organization. He is a wonderful, caring person. There are
things we can do as individuals to help, as well as putting pressure on our government.
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Steven Glazer
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posted 11-03-2001 12:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Alex1111:
Unlike the WTC, the Refugee situation is happening in slow motion, additional
suffering occuring on a daily basis.
The less Refugees there are, than the easier it should be to protect and care for
them.
Otherwise, we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I agree with that, but my point is, the US didn't create the refugee situation. The bombing may
have exacerbated it somewhat, but the Taliban caused it and have been causing it for half a
decade now.
Read this interesting
article that I found in another thread for an example of what I mean.
I do agree we should do all we can to help the people there. I do not agree that we are the
primary people at fault. The US is the largest contributor of humanitarian aid to Afghanistan and
has been for years. The Taliban is a brutal regime of fascists that thinks nothing of harming the
people, and have been for years.
We could be better good guys, but we are not the bad guys here.
[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Steven Glazer ]
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babka
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posted 11-03-2001 01:01 AM
...um...two wrongs don't make a right...(clears throat nervously).
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Alex1111
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posted 11-03-2001 01:01 AM
Sometimes, Wars are Won or Lost by the perception of how the innocents are treated.
Images of the U.S. helping the refugees may also help quell potential anger in neighboring
Pakistan.
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justme
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posted 11-03-2001 01:09 AM
And oftentimes, the quality of a country is judged on how well it treats its women and children...
I think we know how the Taliban scores on that one, regardless of 9/11.
[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: justme ]
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babka
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posted 11-03-2001 09:54 AM
People who once lived/worked in glass houses
now throw big stones.
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diesle
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posted 11-03-2001 10:03 AM
your a pin head
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Alex1111
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posted 11-03-2001 12:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by justme:
And oftentimes, the quality of a country is judged on how well it treats its women
and children...
I think we know how the Taliban scores on that one, regardless of 9/11.
Does it really matter how the Taliban treats it's women in relation to how we treat the refugees?
Are you saying that if the Taliban treated it's women better, we would treat the refugees better?
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Alex1111
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posted 11-04-2001 03:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by babka:
...um...two wrongs don't make a right...(clears throat nervously).
Well said.
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seanmcginty
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posted 11-04-2001 06:53 AM
Unfortunately, I don't see the plight of Afghan refugees having such a big effect on the American
psyche. If the majority of the American public are willing to allow their government to kill a million
Iraqis through starvation they are unlikely to do anything to stop Afghan refugees, whom their
media constantly tell them are harboring these terrorists who killed Americans, from sharing the
same fate.
An interesting article I just read from FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting) stated that it is
now official CNN policy to not report on refugee suffering without adding a disclaimer to the effect
that that suffering is entirely justified because of September 11. The effect, according to FAIR,
will be to turn CNN into little more than a propoganda machine for the US government's war
effort.
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Farhad
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posted 11-04-2001 07:41 AM
I probably don't need to say this, but the very first action US took in the war was not against the
Taliban but against the US citizens. I am talking about the control of information. It was the free
flowing information out of Vietnam that showed American's how unjust that war was and also that
it was possible for their country to be the bad guys. The US did a pretty good job of it in the Gulf
war when Bush senior and his men did not want a repeat of Vietnam. ANd now it has got to the
ridiculous point of no information is coming out of Afghanistan. Why? Because America has alot
to hide and feels as long as its people are kept in the dark they could do whatever they want.
It seems like the only news from inside Afghanistan and not the borders is coming from the
Al-Jazeera network who have admitted openly about AMerica and her allies (Saudi Royal Family)
have been doing their best to stop them from telling the world the story from inside Afghanistan
as it is.
Even though I don't agree with what Osama Bin Laden has to say, I think that is wrong for US
govt to not allow its people hear what their enemy has to say. I think that the American people
are intelligent enough to make up their own minds and don't need to be told what is best for
them.
What is happening here is as bad as living under a communist state where you are not told
anything and only know and have the right to know what the state tells you. I think it is even
worse because at least everyone knew what the communist regimes were upto. America is playing
the good guy and yet for some reason they are too afraid to let the world see their actions and
the result of their actions even if it results to a multi million exodus of refugees or tens of
thousands dying directly out of the actions of US alone.
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Farhad
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posted 11-04-2001 07:43 AM
Shame!
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Alex1111
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posted 11-04-2001 10:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by seanmcginty:
Unfortunately, I don't see the plight of Afghan refugees having such a big effect
on the American psyche. If the majority of the American public are willing to
allow their government to kill a million Iraqis through starvation they are unlikely
to do anything to stop Afghan refugees, whom their media constantly tell them
are harboring these terrorists who killed Americans, from sharing the same fate.
I don't think the above analogy is fair. Doesn't Sadam rule completely by instilling fear in his
people over all over emotions?
Sadam has gone to great lengths to hide his manufacture of chemical weapons of
mass-destruction.
If Sadam offered to step down to help his own people, and we continued to blockade his country,
you would have a point.
quote:
Originally posted by seanmcginty:
An interesting article I just read from FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting)
stated that it is now official CNN policy to not report on refugee suffering without
adding a disclaimer to the effect that that suffering is entirely justified because
of September 11. The effect, according to FAIR, will be to turn CNN into little
more than a propoganda machine for the US government's war effort.
If this is true, than we in America will be harmed to a much greater extent in the FUTURE by our
guilt-free media as it relates to the CURRENT plight of the Afghani refugees.
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Steven Glazer
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posted 11-04-2001 02:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Alex1111:
Does it really matter how the Taliban treats it's women in relation to how we treat
the refugees?
Are you saying that if the Taliban treated it's women better, we would treat the
refugees better?
If the Taliban were the sort of people who took a benevolent view of human rights, they wouldn't
be sheltering and hiding bin Laden or protecting Al Qaeda and we wouldn't be fighting them.
Think of it ... these are people who protect and hide a known terrorist (known to have been
involved in several attacks apart from 9/11 and publicly praising his followers for causing deaths)
while abusing the people they are supposed to be governing. How perverse is that?
I still say, anybody who is truly concerned about the welfare of the Afghan people should be
applauding any action that weakens the Taliban.
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Steven Glazer
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posted 11-04-2001 02:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by seanmcginty:
Unfortunately, I don't see the plight of Afghan refugees having such a big effect
on the American psyche. If the majority of the American public are willing to
allow their government to kill a million Iraqis through starvation they are unlikely
to do anything to stop Afghan refugees, whom their media constantly tell them
are harboring these terrorists who killed Americans, from sharing the same fate.
An interesting article I just read from FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting)
stated that it is now official CNN policy to not report on refugee suffering without
adding a disclaimer to the effect that that suffering is entirely justified because
of September 11. The effect, according to FAIR, will be to turn CNN into little
more than a propoganda machine for the US government's war effort.
FAIR is wrong, that's not what CNN said at all. Here is a story that is more accurate.
Perhaps you should get your news from less biased sources. The CNN policy is much less
dramatic than you portray, calling simply for balance in reporting and not taking the Taliban's
word for things.
And for the millionth time, Saddam is responsible for the welfare of his people. The resources
are available to feed them, he just prefers to let them starve so he can claim the US is
responsible. And fascist-loving suckers like you fall for it.
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Alex1111
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posted 11-04-2001 02:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Glazer:
If the Taliban were the sort of people who took a benevolent view of human
rights, they wouldn't be sheltering and hiding bin Laden or protecting Al Qaeda
and we wouldn't be fighting them.
Think of it ... these are people who protect and hide a known terrorist (known to
have been involved in several attacks apart from 9/11 and publicly praising his
followers for causing deaths) while abusing the people they are supposed to be
governing. How perverse is that?
I still say, anybody who is truly concerned about the welfare of the Afghan people
should be applauding any action that weakens the Taliban.
It's tough for any indegenious people to correct their own government.
The U.S. was founded specifically because people were enslaved as indentured servants in
Europe.
If the "problem" has to been "fixed" from the outside in relation to Afghanistan, aren't we a
great enough country to both fight the Taliban AND help the women and children of the
Afghanistan Refugee Camps?
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4th horseman
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posted 11-04-2001 04:30 PM
Much of the problem in getting aid to the refuges has to do with getting into Afghanistan first.
OXFAM, Doctors without borders, and other aid agencies speak of all their equipment as well as
supplies being looted by the Taliban. As much as I dislike war, the situation in Afghanistan has
been allowed to rot so long that there is not choice but to rid the country of the ruling Taliban
before anything else can be done.
Having said that, I'm surprised that I don't see the U.S. offering food aid in the refugee camps
in Pakistan. Correct me if I'm wrong there. It seems to me that Pakistan would be willing to take
more refugees at this time if someone else would help feed them.
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Alex1111
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posted 11-04-2001 11:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 4th horseman:
Much of the problem in getting aid to the refuges has to do with getting into
Afghanistan first. OXFAM, Doctors without borders, and other aid agencies speak
of all their equipment as well as supplies being looted by the Taliban. As much as I
dislike war, the situation in Afghanistan has been allowed to rot so long that there
is not choice but to rid the country of the ruling Taliban before anything else can
be done.
Having said that, I'm surprised that I don't see the U.S. offering food aid in the
refugee camps in Pakistan. Correct me if I'm wrong there. It seems to me that
Pakistan would be willing to take more refugees at this time if someone else
would help feed them.
Maybe the Pakistan President's meeting with Bush will discuss this issue. The best way to
appease the Pakistani youth is too show that we value the Afghani Refugees.
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seanmcginty
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posted 11-05-2001 01:59 AM
Stephen Glazer,
The argument that Saddam Hussein is 100% responsible for the suffering of his people even
though it is US and UK forces that are enforcing the blockade is somewhat ludicrous. I'm familiar
with the arguments, but the fact still remains that were the US and UK to so choose they could
end those sanctions and the associated suffering in a day. I'm not saying that they are solely to
blame, just that they share the blame along with Saddam in the same sense that EVERYONE is
responsible for their own actions.
As for your resorting to personal insults to make your point, calling me a fascist sucker or
whatever, it merely highlights your own mental weakness. If you can't respond with valid
arguments, don't just resort to spitting venom as it makes your position look all the more hollow.
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Alex1111
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posted 11-05-2001 02:59 AM
There are similarities between the Taliban and Sadam Hussein, both seem to put their personal
needs above their own countries welfare.
Hopefully Mr. Bush is not in the same league.
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Alex1111
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posted 11-06-2001 03:13 AM
A lot of news stories about the Refugees today...
The Refugees will be the center of the tug of war this winter, whichever side is more caring toward
the Refugees will gain huge points in the world view of this war.
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Another topic I posted on the Michael Moore Website that I also had posted here.
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Topic: We Should Make a Monument to The Postal Employees Who Died from Anthrax...
Alex1111
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posted 10-29-2001 04:24 PM
Everyone pretty much agrees the postal workers who died were overlooked...perhaps even
disrespected, but not out of intended malice to them.
How about we erect a monument (not now, but in a year or two) in a group likeness of those
postal employees who died in the initial anthrax attack.
Underneath the momument would be a plaque with the words "Never Kill the Messenger".
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Youdidwhat?
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posted 10-29-2001 04:29 PM
Where do you propose the build that? Because they are not going to build any more monuments
in DC after the MLK monument.
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Terror Advisor
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posted 10-29-2001 05:28 PM
How about a dog biting a mail carrier on the ass?
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Terror Advisor
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posted 10-29-2001 05:38 PM
Sorry about that one. I was kidding of course.
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You And Whose
Army?
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posted 10-29-2001 05:40 PM
I think the dog one is very good
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Alex1111
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posted 10-29-2001 09:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by You did what?:
Where do you propose the build that? Because they are not going to build any
more monuments in DC after the MLK monument.
I have never understood why people clump together the quality of an idea (drum roll
please.......) with the feasibility of the idea
So lets not consider the idea of a tribute to these postal employees who died while doing their
job, and never even met their terror face to face...
The response comments I have read in the previous posts come off as cold and calculating.
Don't Kill the Messenger just became "Lets Chill the Messenger"
Ok, maybe I'm partially too blame...I didn't mean a momument the size of a football field...but
statue is not the proper word because it would be of more than one person.
[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Alex1111 ]
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Youdidwhat?
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posted 10-30-2001 11:52 AM
All I was aking was where! I didn't argue the feasability. I meant what city? Where in the country?
I wanted to know. I wanted to be sure you knew that the FED absolutely will not put any more
memorials and monuments in DC after the MLK. That's all. I think it's a swell idea.
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Obliquity of the
Ecliptic
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posted 10-30-2001 12:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Alex1111:
Everyone pretty much agrees the postal workers who died were
overlooked...perhaps even disrespected, but not out of intended malice to them.
How about we erect a monument (not now, but in a year or two) in a group
likeness of those postal employees who died in the initial anthrax attack.
Underneath the momument would be a plaque with the words "Never Kill the
Messenger".
What do you mean, overlooked? I hear about them on the news, every damn day! What do you
want? A one hour primetime special on each individual?- how their hopes and dreams were
crushed by this dreaded disease? While we're at it, we can do specials on each person that was
infected, but didn't die.
Why don't we start building monuments everytime someone dies? Oh- wait, we already do.
They're called grave stones. Monuments should be reserved for those who died in an act of
bravery. Someone worthy of rememberance- NOT for people who were in the wrong place at the
wrong time. Monuments are for heroes, not victims.
Not to mention you're being a little pre-mature on this whole thing. These terrost attacks are far
from over. Try waiting 5 - 10 years, then we can talk.
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John V
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posted 10-30-2001 12:18 PM
This is an excellent thread. I just wish I had something to add to it.
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Alex1111
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posted 11-02-2001 11:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Obliquity of the Ecliptic:
What do you mean, overlooked? I hear about them on the news, every damn day!
What do you want? A one hour primetime special on each individual?- how their
hopes and dreams were crushed by this dreaded disease? While we're at it, we
can do specials on each person that was infected, but didn't die.
Why don't we start building monuments everytime someone dies? Oh- wait, we
already do. They're called grave stones. Monuments should be reserved for those
who died in an act of bravery. Someone worthy of rememberance- NOT for people
who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Monuments are for heroes, not
victims.
Not to mention you're being a little pre-mature on this whole thing. These terrost
attacks are far from over. Try waiting 5 - 10 years, then we can talk.
Interesting, you may be the only one on the planet who missed the ethical issue of the Initial
Postal Employee Victims being ordered back to work while the Capitol was shut down.
That was the double standard that made many upset, and they are justified.
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Peter - Brisbane,
Aust
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posted 11-02-2001 11:31 PM
This is why america will lose the war.
America is SO overwrought with sentimentality it is sickening.
What happens when tens of thousands start dying?
You'll all be too busy having telethons, charity concerts, holding hands, waving flags, lighting
candles, singing songs, having parades to honour 'the heroes' etc, etc, etc....
What is wrong with you people??
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Peter - Brisbane,
Aust
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posted 11-02-2001 11:33 PM
Save your typing - I know I'm insensitive & a moron & unkind etc, etc....
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grip
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posted 11-02-2001 11:38 PM
Peter-
Get a grip man. There might be a dose of sentimentality here, but we deal with our share of
scum. We try to pull it together and bring a little quality and reverence to life. You have a
problem with our cultural temperament that you perceive through your media? It does sound like
your problem.
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Rifty
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posted 11-02-2001 11:39 PM
What about all the illegal workers who were staffing the kitchens and cleaning the toilets of the
WTC? Are they any less worthy of a monument or a benefit concert? We know that they are
factored into the US budgets and that the economy relies fairly heavily on them being there, yet
most of them them will never even be named amongst the dead because their families are too
scared to even report them missing.
How many fucking monuments and Elton John concerts will it take to make Americans understand
what is happening to them?
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Peter - Brisbane,
Aust
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posted 11-02-2001 11:42 PM
But why is it that if you die this way your a fucking hero & deserve special treatment, medlas & a
presedential thank-you but if you die another way no-one except your mum gives a shit.
I just can't stand the stupidity & hypocrisy of it all.
Can't you see that Those In Power are manipulating your emotions to control you???
How do you really expect to win a war when with each death you want the country to grind to a
halt & all run around waving flags & holding benefits?
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Peter - Brisbane,
Aust
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Member # 2621
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posted 11-02-2001 11:44 PM
"What about all the illegal workers who were staffing the kitchens and cleaning the toilets of the
WTC? Are they any less worthy of a monument or a benefit concert? "
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!
Exactly.......
Fucking hypocrites....
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Peter - Brisbane,
Aust
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posted 11-02-2001 11:47 PM
"How about we erect a monument (not now, but in a year or two) in a group likeness of those
postal employees who died in the initial anthrax attack."
Or of more practical benefit, close down the mail system & make their work place safe.
Won't happen will it??
Seems there are limits on what you'll do for your 'heroes' & they involve money....
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grip
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posted 11-02-2001 11:48 PM
Ooh Those in Power - sounds like Big Brother. I think people have emotional reactions all on
their own. You might be seeing the larger news, but on multiple levels we are aware of everything
around us. You are questioning human nature rather than Americans.
We have constant death and violence and this machine doesn't stop for much. Sometimes it just
takes a little while for our hearts to catch up again.
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LOCKEandLOAD
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posted 11-03-2001 12:19 AM
Someone answer me this, please; how are these people, or the world trade center victims,
"heroes"?
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babka
Member
Member # 1495
posted 11-03-2001 12:55 AM
It is the consolation prize of the language of War: a folded flag for every widow, a ticket to the
game for the slain fireman's daughter, a crack at the microphone @ the celebrity rally, an
attempt to assuage rage before the reality sets in, a transparent label-bandaid of valor-speak,
the celebration of the everyday courage of the worker and those abruptly "terminated" before a
phrase could be coined for their slaughter. Type thing.
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Alex1111
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Member # 1505
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posted 11-03-2001 01:10 AM
"Don't kill the messenger" as a bronze statue, in the likeness of the postal employees done in
by anthrax.
Suddenly it's wrong to reserve a few heroic spaces for those who were doing the job of
"messenger".
"Never kill the messenger" a phrase known from the beginning of time....I believe harming a
messenger was universally known as unnacceptable.
According to a couple of you....
Because waiters and busboys died in the WTC, we cannot build a statue to honor the Postal
Employees who died while on duty...
Now that makes a lot of sense.
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Peter - Brisbane,
Aust
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posted 11-03-2001 02:21 AM
"According to a couple of you....
Because waiters and busboys died in the WTC, we cannot build a statue to honor the Postal
Employees who died while on duty..."
Hey - build away.
Just pointing out the idiotic hypocricy of it all - that's all...
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Phylis Sophical
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posted 11-03-2001 04:40 AM
A monument to the double standards of the Health Department? I think rather they want ya'll to
forget about that a.s.a.p.
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Peter - Brisbane,
Aust
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posted 11-03-2001 04:48 AM
Hmmmmm - don't think this thread went the way it was originally intended
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CBQ
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posted 11-03-2001 06:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Peter - Brisbane, Aust:
"According to a couple of you....
Because waiters and busboys died in the WTC, we cannot build a statue to honor
the Postal Employees who died while on duty..."
Hey - build away.
Just pointing out the idiotic hypocricy of it all - that's all...
Because, of course, it would be better to forget all about them.
Way to fight the man there. Boy, the powers that be sure would hate us to overcome our
"sentiment" in this case (i'm being sarcastic). After all, it's not like they knowingly allowed these
people to die. It's not like our government in fact ordered them into an unsafe workplace. It's
not like our entire country went into a squealy fit over the safety of our precious little white male
politicians while dismissing the lower class (and, from what I've seen primarily black and
minority) people at this post office as disposable.
No, of course not.
You ever think, maybe you're so busy telling everyone not to follow the crowd of lemmings, that
you may have simply become head lemming?
I'm all for a monument. A big friggin monument. That states
exactly how they died on a big friggin plaque underneath.
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Alex1111
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Member # 1505
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posted 11-03-2001 12:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Peter - Brisbane, Aust:
But why is it that if you die this way your a fucking hero & deserve special
treatment, medlas & a presedential thank-you but if you die another way no-one
except your mum gives a shit.
I just can't stand the stupidity & hypocrisy of it all.
Can't you see that Those In Power are manipulating your emotions to control
you???
How do you really expect to win a war when with each death you want the country
to grind to a halt & all run around waving flags & holding benefits?
Of course, you realize I did say in a year's time, not now...now would be too soon.
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Alex1111
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Member # 1505
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posted 11-04-2001 03:42 AM
quote:
Originally posted by John V [no numbers]:
This is an excellent thread. I just wish I had something to add to it.
Cool.
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Alex1111
Member
Member # 1505
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posted 11-04-2001 11:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CBQ:
Because, of course, it would be better to forget all about them.
Way to fight the man there. Boy, the powers that be sure would hate us to
overcome our "sentiment" in this case (i'm being sarcastic). After all, it's not like
they knowingly allowed these people to die. It's not like our government in fact
ordered them into an unsafe workplace. It's not like our entire country went into
a squealy fit over the safety of our precious little white male politicians while
dismissing the lower class (and, from what I've seen primarily black and minority)
people at this post office as disposable.
No, of course not.
You ever think, maybe you're so busy telling everyone not to follow the crowd of
lemmings, that you may have simply become head lemming?
I'm all for a monument. A big friggin monument. That states
exactly how they died on a big friggin plaque underneath.
Bravo.
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Peter - Brisbane,
Aust
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posted 11-05-2001 01:43 AM
"You ever think, maybe you're so busy telling everyone not to follow the crowd of lemmings, that
you may have simply become head lemming? (Me??? Absolutely not.....)
I'm all for a monument. A big friggin monument. That states exactly how they died on a big
friggin plaque underneath. (I totally agree....)
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Alex1111
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Member # 1505
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posted 11-09-2001 02:08 AM
I'm still not understanding why Peter thinks it imperative to compare the waiters and busboys
who died in the WTC building with Postal Employees who died from anthrax.
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