Continued from Pregnant Women who Smoke Part One...
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-03-02 19:27
The perversion of "rights" and "freedoms" that causes harm to an entity that has no say, no ability to immediately, is rampant among a few of you.
Self Absorbed behavior lives!
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Mark (216.140.50.---)
Date: 01-03-02 19:36
Alex,
...and in your world, judgement and jury rules. That sounds familiar.
Mark
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Chuck Cliff (---.bynxx2.adsl.tele.dk)
Date: 01-03-02 20:10
// Read between the lines on post Alex's response to me of 01-01-02 //
Don't see why, the responses are more interesting than his replies which make me yawn...
Cliff
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alma Jurgensen (209.240.222.---)
Date: 01-04-02 00:06
Alex: your logic escapes me. Knives can be used as utility items. They can be used to cut up one's food. Knives can also be used to kill or injure Someone.
I have no control over how a person uses the knife.
The woman smoking that cigarette was not harming You. Whether she was 'harming' her fetus is questionable...we simply don't have all the facts.
If you saw that same woman knifing herself in the stomach would you have stopped her? Is it your 'duty' to do so? What about the risk to You that would
have been involved?
Do you think that you have a Moral obligation to 'police' the smoking world and to 'scold' pregnant women?
You do not.
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alma Jurgensen (---.public.svc.webtv.net)
Date: 01-04-02 00:06
Alex: your logic escapes me. Knives can be used as utility items. They can be used to cut up one's food. Knives can also be used to kill or injure Someone.
I have no control over how a person uses the knife.
The woman smoking that cigarette was not harming You. Whether she was 'harming' her fetus is questionable...we simply don't have all the facts.
If you saw that same woman knifing herself in the stomach would you have stopped her? Is it your 'duty' to do so? What about the risk to You that would
have been involved?
Do you think that you have a Moral obligation to 'police' the smoking world and to 'scold' pregnant women?
You do not.
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-04-02 00:13
Alma, I just can't seem to track your point. Is being harmed by smoke somehow less damaging than being harmed by a knife?
Do you know what the coolest response would have been to my original post?
"Alex, I would hope I was never put in the situation in you found yourself in, because no matter what I did, it would be wrong".
You'ze peepull need ta take sum filosissy classes.
-Alex
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: General Smythe (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 01-04-02 00:28
Alex:
Only you know if this incident actually happened. Personally, I am
100% sure it did not. I believe that you just took a little dramatic
license to advance your point. Just about everybody has nailed
you on every point you are trying to make so I'll not "pile on."
My question is (and I'm surprised that someone has not called you
on it already): You say that animals have rights as if it were true
and we all should know it. Well, it isn't true. Animals have no
rights. In most jurisdictions it's illegal to abuse animals but that
doesn't mean they have "rights."
Rights are granted to people, not animals.
General Smythe
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-04-02 00:36
And I believe my previous post pretty much supercedes most of the responses, if not all.
Sigh, the story is true...and if animals don't have rights, than people have rights to protect the animals.
If people have rights to protect animals, than shouldn't non aborted babies be afforded even a modicum of rights via the rights of others to protect them?
-Alex
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.156.234.241.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-04-02 01:26
Alex,
You ask "Is being harmed by smoke somehow less damaging than being harmed by a knife?"
You have completely lost it! That is probably the dumbest question ever asked on this forum. Stick a lit cigarette in your mouth and a knife in your stomach
and tell me which one 'harms' you the most. That is, if you're able to.
Then you write what the 'coolest' response to your original post would be, in your opinion, and screw it up so bad it doesn't even make sense.
You don't need to take any more 'filosissy' classes and you really need to get off the stuff. We're here for you!
Curt
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-04-02 01:32
Curt, the final line was satire.
The part about "no matter what I had done in the situation I would be doing the wrong thing", was not.
-Alex
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: General Smythe (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 01-04-02 01:49
Alex:
Forgive me, and I don't want to be patronizing but you are treating
words that are diverse as though they were interchangeable. I'm
referring to "rights" in the place of obligation as in when you said
"people have rights to protect the animals." You did it again when
you said, "via the rights of others to protect them?" When you do
that, it makes the sentence difficult to understand.
In my opinion you have misunderstood the difference between
rights, obligations and ethical considerations throughout this
thread.
General Smythe
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-04-02 02:40
That being said.....Did Alex have a right to pluck the smoking pregnant strangers cigarette from her hand?
Did Alex have an obligation if he did have the right to pluck the smoking pregnant stranger's cigarette from her hand?
Did Alex have and obligation based on his personal code of ethics even if he did not have the right to pluck the smoking pregnant stranger's cigarette form
her hand??
Is the fact that a pregnant women is smoking a matter for ethical consideration??? Now for the big question...
.When or is it ever ethical for Alex to decide to pluck a smoking pregnant strangers cigarette form her hand????
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: General Smythe (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 01-04-02 03:34
Ms. Cricket:
1. He had no "right" to pluck the cigarette.
2. He had no "right" so this question isn't applicable.
3. No. He may have "felt" or believed that he had an obligation
based on his personal code of ethics but he had a "duty" to
overcome that urge and obey the law.
4. Yes, If he is prone to believe that harm is being done to to
the fetus and it offends his personal code of ethics, he owes
it to himself to do something about it. What he does about
it however, must conform to the law.
5. It is never ethical to steal. If it were, the word would be
take, not steal.
I think that an old but applicable saying is in order: "Your
right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose."
General Smythe
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-04-02 03:45
If I were grading your work you would receive an A++, General. You would have received an A'+++ but you should have proof read your work. If you've
noticed you are not the only one who likes to be in charge!
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Joe Marquez (---.mis.prserv.net)
Date: 01-04-02 04:15
One of the biggest things that bothered ME was that Alex said that 'it' wasn't SURE if the woman was pregnant. So maybe Alex' concern wasn't the fetus'
rights it was more that Alex' story was better if 'it' made most of the story up.
Then you claim that people have the right to protect animals rights, eh Alex? Do you know the meaning of these words (I know it's been addressed, I just
haven't seen an ANSWER!)
You're a waste of sperm Alex. A true excuse for being PRO-ABORTION.
[email protected]
And I feel the egg was a waste too, but IT had a choice.
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-04-02 08:55
In my opinion you have misunderstood the difference between
rights, obligations and ethical considerations throughout this
thread.
General Smythe
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General, the differences between these three words are very small.
"Animal Rights"...surely you have heard that word bandied about.
If we want to conclude that animals do not have rights, I'll agree with you, but then the next logical conclusion is that we as humans have rights to protect
animals, and those rights come from laws...AND...ethical considerations AND obligations to protect those weaker than ourselves.
The words lend themselves to each other.
-Alex
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-04-02 08:58
general, I believe the word "take" is more apropo than steal.
I took the lit cigarette,...and I did it without even touching the pregnant lady, not even for a moment.
-Alex
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-04-02 09:02
I think that an old but applicable saying is in order: "Your
right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose."
General Smythe
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General, how about we say "Your right to inhale cigarette smoke ends at the tip of my nose."
signed...fetus baby #1111
-Alex
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Sandy Price (---.lakehavasu.ispchannel.com)
Date: 01-04-02 12:23
Well, it sounds like Alex wants another level of federal law to protect the unborn, in this case the innocent child having to put up with a smoking mother to
be.
What he can do is this: Be sure his wife doesn't smoke! That's it! Then he adds that the federal government should protect every single unborn fetus as
part of their job. Now wait a minute, let's take this to the obvious conclusion. It doesn't matter whether we are discussing abortion or smoking.
Let's say the Federal government issues a new Amendment called "Protect the Fetus Law." This should cover all Alex's problems. Now how do we
implement this new law?
Every woman who sees a doctor and is found to be pregnant must be tested for tobacco in her system. To be certain that she does not sneak a smoke,
dogs should be trained to sniff out any traces of the dreaded tobacco. We will need these dogs to meet the new arrivals at every airport, give a sniff and if
tobacco is discovered, these women must be returned to where they came from.
In the same vein, all American pregnant women must be xrayed to determine that they are forced by federal law to carry the fetus to term. Naturally xrays
will be necessry at every airport and determined that she still be pregnant when she returns home. (Back in the 50s, women used to fly to the south of
France for their abortions). Dogs again can be trained to sniff out a pregnant woman and should be trained to stop any woman who has suddenly had a
change of smell.
How secure we will all feel when Uncle Sam has this authority voted in and approved by our house and senate. Why, we have yet to discover what else we
need to do to make Alex feel secure. Oh, yes, natural abortions will need an independent counsel to be appointed immediately by John Ashcroft to cover
any possibility that a woman can take that magic morning after pill.
Of course, every American woman will follow the new federal laws without question. We will all become immediately moral and saved from our own selfish
desires.
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-04-02 12:36
Sandy, you taken this to the incorrect conclusion.
The issue is not just me trying to stop a pregnant woman from smoking. It's also what recourse will the fetus have later in life if they truly have problems
directly linked to the cigarette smoke they ingested while in moms womb.
Mom could simply deny that she smoked during the pregnancy.
Lets take the situation I was in...instead of "taking" the cigarette from her hand...(without EVER touching her in any way)...
I could have had the option of taking her license plate down, then simply getting verificiation that she is a registered pregnant smoker.
I never even get to know her name or anything else about her, just that she has been honest enough to admit that she smoked during her pregnancy, and
put such a statement on paper...if she has not declared that she smoked, than she would have to either deny my assertion, or just tell the truth, and
register that she was a smoker during her pregnancy.
I know it's a tough call, can the government ever demand someone tell the truth...
I think if the only result of this "federal" demand is that the fetus would have the choice to sue at a later date (and most "kids" would not), than mom's rights
have not been abridged...and the only one who could take her to task would be the only one who was harmed by her actions.
That seems pretty fair to me.
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: General Smythe (---.asm.bellsouth.net)
Date: 01-04-02 13:56
Alex:
In our discussion regarding rights, obligations, and ethics and
their meaning, I stated that you were treating these words as
if they were interchangeable. In response you said: ?the differ-
ences between these three words are very small.? Let me try
to prove you wrong.
Right
In the context of our conversation, we are discussing the word
?right? as in ?a right to do something.? For example: The right
to smoke a cigarette while pregnant or at any other time.
Where do you get a ?right?? Answer: ?The term right in a civil
society is defined to mean that which a man is entitled to have,
or to do, or receive from others within the limits prescribed by
law.? (Blacks Law Dictionary)
Returning to the context of our discussion, you have to ask,
?Did the lady have a ?right? to smoke her cigarette?? ?Was it
within the law for her to do so?? The key question, in this case,
is: Was the circumstances surrounding her smoking ?within the
limits prescribed by law?? Assuming the fact situation that you
described is accurate and assuming that the city or state that
the event occurred in does not prohibit smoking in such circum-
stances, the answers to all of the above are yes ? she had a
right to smoke.
Obligation
You might say that you had an ?obligation? to protect the fetus
and was only fulfilling this obligation when you ?took? the cigarette
away from the mother.
Looking at the word obligation we find: ?That which a person is
bound to do or forbear; any duty imposed by law, promise or con-
tract, relations of society, courtesy, kindness, etc.? (also Blacks).
Now, before you go off ?half cocked? and try to fit in the ?relations
of society, courtesy,? etc. into the fact situation, understand the
following. Blacks also says, regarding obligation: ?That what con-
stitutes a legal or moral duty and which renders a person liable
to coercion and punishment for neglecting it.
Going back to the fact situation: Did you have an obligation to
?take? the cigarette from the ladies hands? Would you have been
subject to legal punishment if you failed to act? Answers: No and
No.
Ethics or Ethical or Ethical Considerations
So far we understand that (1) the lady had a ?right? to smoke her
cigarette in the privacy of her car. And (2) you had no ?obligation?
to prevent her from doing so. Blacks treats ?ethical? as follows: ?Of
or relating to moral action, motive or character; as ethical emotion;
also treatment of moral feelings, duties or conduct; containing pre-
cepts of morality; moral?; and secondarily as ?professional stand-
ards of conduct.?
Did you have an ?ethical responsibility? to stop her from smoking?
Off handedly you would say YES! But, where do you find the ethi-
cal standards that demand you act in this situation? Do you belong
to the American Society of Busy Bodies whose first Rule Of Ethics
is to interfere with conduct you find offensive? And, if you do, would
the law find that this rule is ?reasonable? and is good reason to over-
ride the lady?s right to smoke? You cannot make up ethical consid-
erations. You cannot simply say that: ?it was against my personal
standards concerning ethical considerations.? Ethical considerat-
ions must pass a ?reasonable? test.
Summing Up
Words mean things. In our everyday life we find that the meaning of
words becomes blurred and/or upside down. ?Cool? isn?t always frigid
and ?right on? may not mean sitting on top of. When making a point
in a debate, one cannot simply invent meaning when it comes to our
language. It appears to me that this is what you want to do. You
take the easy way out and come back to ?your definition? of words
when trying to make a point. Perhaps that is why you are refuted
so frequently and why you have a problem accepting opinions that
don?t fit into your personal standards.
Regarding your ?taking? the cigarette, permit me to give you a better
description: ?Larceny is fraudulent taking and carrying away of a
thing without claim of right, with intention of converting it to a use
other than that of the owner, without his consent. (Thomas v.
Kessler, 334 Pa. 7, 5, A. 2nd 187, 188)? You could look it up.
General Smythe
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-04-02 15:15
General...Your grade is now an A++++...Bonus for the research!
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.56.53.158.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-04-02 15:57
Alex,
I are a Collidge gragiate and I no the last lin were satire.
I was referring to the quotation immediatly prior to the the last line.
Curt
No big deal, as I do it all the time, OK?
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.56.53.158.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-04-02 16:07
Alex,
What does fetus baby #1111 say when the doctor turns it around, pulls all of it out but it's head, punches a hole in the back of it's head and proceeds to
suck it's little brains out.
Probably something like "At least my mommy didn't smoke," huh?
Curt
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.56.53.158.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-04-02 16:23
General,
Under the circumstances, I still think the ladies husband would have been 'right' to find Alex and bitch slap him around a bit.
Curt
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Sandy Price (---.lakehavasu.ispchannel.com)
Date: 01-04-02 17:57
Good heavens, my mother smoked for 60 years including those months when she was carrying me. I smoked during both of my pregnancies and managed
to give birth to perfect babies and extremely intelligent adults.
We had a couple of Medical doctors who were told by our political leaders to attempt to take out the tobacco companies and do it by scaring the crap out of
American citizens. One of these doctors also wanted to demonstrate to the school kids how to masterbate for their own protection.
I edited a bunch of books for a woman who was a Numerologist. She lived to be 101 years old and had smoked non-stop for 70 years. She was extremely
healthy and only died after she fell down the steps of her apartment.
Get off this smoking kick and stop trying to make it a moral issue. Alex, the only obligation you had to take that woman's cigarette was if she were your wife,
carrying your baby and even then I would have kicked your ass!
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.156.235.90.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-04-02 18:38
Sandy,
Obviously all great minds think alike! I suggested a good butt kicking for Alex in the very first post.
My Dad only made it to 93 and in his later years he bragged about how proud he was to quit smoking cold turkey when he was 75. I think the only days he
was ever sick were the last three days of his life when he succumbed to congestive heart failure.
My Mother smoked and it finally killed her at 83. Actually, it was her third stroke that did it and I don't think the strokes were related to smoking.
Just rambling, so I'll quit.
Curt
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-04-02 19:29
Sandy, Sandy, Sandy.
A small percentage of the population carries the smoking gene...they can smoke all they want, and they still live to be a 100 years old. But that is a small
percentage, significantly less than 10% of the population.
Why don't you type the words, smoking and pregnancy, into the internet search engine of your choice, and tell me what you find.
Perhaps you can create and then be the posterchild for the FIRST AND ONLY website that advocates smoking for pregnant women.
Curt, you vascilate between adulthood and dolthood. Perhaps you've been in a fight or two, too many.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Smythe, as eloquent as your rambling appears to be, your dissertation fell apart when you got to the ethics part.
I'll cite an example for you.
Remember the little girl who was repeatedly beaten and raped in a Las Vegas casino bathroom about 3 or 4 years ago. No charges were ever filed against
the imbecile who watched his partner rape beat and rape her because he never officially participated.
The fked up souless lawyers argued that technically no law was violated by the "watchman", so the idiot "watchman" was never prosecuted!!!
Ethically, he should have stepped in and stopped what was going on, or gone and got help.
According to your definition of ethics, this "watchman" was within his rights to just stand in the doorway of the bathroom and watch his partner abuse and
rape, AND KILL this little girl.
Do you really believe that? Your definition of ethics would require you to answer yes.
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Sandy Price (---.lakehavasu.ispchannel.com)
Date: 01-04-02 20:37
Alex. I never have been an advocate for pregnant women smoking. I am an advocate for limited federal government. If you want to live in a city where
pregnant women are forbidden to smoke then get out an initiative, gather up the signatures and get it passed in your city. Leave mine the hell alone!
Damn you socialists can't seem to handle your own problems without bringing in the government.
Alex, you constantly blame everyone for the ills in your life. You come off as a caped crusader who will get Uncle Sam to correct all the problems you seem
to have. This is not your fight!
You are not a pregnant woman! You never will be one and so go on and try to clean up the actions of all the young men who have no regard for anyone
else on this planet. Take on the Ritalin problem. Too many of our young pre-teen boys are being drugged into behavior patterns that sadly are causing kids
like the Columbine to suddenly kill classmates and then themselves.
Why do I feel that you blame the guns?
When thousands of 12 to 15 year old girls are being raped and find themselves pregnant I imagine you will call them sluts and blame their mothers for not
raising them property. But the boys who raped them will get a "boys will be boys" nod from you and you will send the girls to jail when they want abortions.
You need to go back to the beginning and start being reprogrammed in human behavior problems. For God's sake stop asking the Federal government to
solve your problems.
You have my permission to find a girl who doesn't smoke, marry her and let her have your babies. That is your total and only authority and area of
responsibility.
Remove your cape immediately and remember the last two Supermen. One fell off a roof and the other off a horse.
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: gobrent (199.244.214.---)
Date: 01-04-02 21:21
{his idea that you cannot acknowledge "fetus" rights because it elevates them to "human" status is interesting.
However, animals have rights, and we don't treat them as humans...as a matter of fact, isn't it odd that we do acknowledge certain rights for animals and
yet no such "rights" exists for fetuses?}
True, we do have animal rights??but I challenge you to show me any law concerning fetal-animal rights.
To be pro-choice, as I am, a person must NOT consider a fetus to be a human being??to think otherwise WOULD be condoning murder.
Before that, you wrote:
{ gobrent, all of your counterpoints were so stupid and ill-informed, I'm not even going to justify them with an answer.}
There?s nothing stupid or ill-informed about anything I said??you won?t answer it because you can?t.
You wrote a blatantly stupid piece thinking that someone was going to call you ?Human of the Year? and instead you?ve gotten roasted.
And for some reason, you seem to be the only person in this thread who doesn?t know that you?re pro-choice! What you?re really trying to do is weasel out
of your stupidity with vacuous double-talk and ?I?m-just-trying-to-stimulate??.duh??duhhhhhhhhh!!!!? nonsense.
What you did was wrong and illegal, and a real man would admit as much. But then again, a real man wouldn?t snatch cigarettes away from a defenseless
woman while her daughter looked on.
Sandy Price:
You and I don't agree on much, but that Superman line is great!
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.156.235.58.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-04-02 21:42
Alex,
Actually I have been in one fight too FEW. If you steal any cigarettes from any women I know, I will then have had exactly the correct number of fights.
I am impressed tho.' Sandy wrote that you need an ass kicking and you didn't try to bully another woman. That's one in a row for you! I wouldn't have to
take up for her as she does a pretty good job of taking up for herself. Speaking of dolts, I defend a womans rights, you want to deprive her of them. You
lose!
Curt
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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: General Smythe (---.asm.bellsouth.net)
Date: 01-04-02 22:22
Alex:
If you believe my post was "rambling" then I guess anything
further in this regard would be a waste of your time and mine.
I believe that I have gone far enough with you and I'm going to
give up after this post. No answer from you is required as I will
not respond further on this topic.
I can try and explain to you but I can't make you learn. Either
you don't possess the necessary reading comprehension skills
or the intellect to understand what I'm saying, or you are too
lazy to read what is put in front of you. My bet is your problem
revolves around all three. Let me try to explain in another way.
When you laid out the fact situation at the beginning of this
thread, you admitted to committing a crime. That crime is call-
ed larceny and the elements of the crime are described in my
prior post.
The words ?obligation? and ?ethical consideration? best describe
the type of defense that you would be attempting to use if
charged with larceny as an outgrowth of this incident. That is,
assuming that you admitted the act but allege that you had a
good (insert legal) reason to do what you did.
If, in defense of your action, you assert that you were ?obligated?
to take that cigarette from the women, then you would have to
prove that the obligation you followed passes legal muster. You
would have to show that if you didn?t take that cigarette from the
lady you would have found yourself ?liable to coercion and pun-
ishment.? How can you prove that? You can?t, because it isn?t
true. Perhaps your failure to act would have made you feel bad.
You might have even been ?down in the dumps? but you certain-
ly would not be subject to a fine and/or imprisonment if you would
have just kept walking. Hence you had no ?legal obligation? to
steal her cigarette.
The same conditions apply if you assert that you had an ?ethical?
duty to take the cigarette. The burden would be on you to outline
the ethical duty that confronted you. Once again, the ethical duty
would have to be grounded in the law and not simply plucked from
the sky.
Now we come to your comment that ?your dissertation fell apart when
you got to the ethics part.? I would like to advise you that your fact
situation is flawed to the point that it cannot be used to support your
argument. I am familiar with the case cited by you and I believe the
following is accurate:
1. The ?watchman? was not charged with anything involving this case
because he was needed to prove the identity of the murderer. He
was immunized to provide testimony to convict the sicko.
2. If he was indeed a ?lookout? assigned to warn the murderer of the
impending approach of another person, he is just as guilty as the per-
son killing the child. Without immunity he would have been charged
accordingly.
Notwithstanding, the erroneous fact situation as presented by you, I
think that I can still help by providing the following illustration:
A man is raping a woman in an alley and during the act and before
he kills her, she shouts for help in a manner that is heard by 26 people
in nearby apartments. All 26 admit to hearing the screams for help
and not one of them called 911 to report the incident. They all state
that it was none of their business. When pressed by the police as to
the reason for their failure to report, they all regained their wits and
allowed that fighting between men and women occurs frequently in
their neighborhood. They rationalized it away by saying: ?who?s to
know what?s a crime and what?s a simple domestic dispute.?
Was their behavior unethical? Of course, if you didn?t understand that
ethics are standards that must contain ?precepts of morality? or be
contained in ?professional standards of conduct? you would know that
their behavior couldn?t be unethical. You know this because you ran
to the dictionary and looked up the word precept, didn?t you? No,
you didn?t. You didn?t understand the meaning of the word but you
glossed over it and continued to make up your own version of our
language.
Since your previous tendencies are to be lazy, I know that you will
still not look it up.
Precept (noun) (1) Rule of personal conduct (2) A doctrine that is taught
So, for there to be an ethical violation, you now know that a known
standard must have been violated. In the instant case there isn?t an
existing standard that says you must call the police when you hear
a scream in the night. It?s a great idea! It makes sense to do so but
it isn?t a rule or a standard that we must follow.
This is an actual case that occurred in New York several years ago.
The fact that they didn?t report the incident to the police does not mean
that these 26 people aren?t jerks, dolts or anything that you want to
call them. It just means that they didn?t commit an ?unethical? act.
You did, however - you committed a larceny, which is coincidentally,
also a crime. If you soon hear a loud knock on the door, it will be Joe
coming to make a ?citizen?s arrest.?
In this forum we tend to get carried away and sticking to the subject
becomes very difficult to do. Please remember that this all came
about by your assertion that the words rights, obligations and ethics
were synonomous. I hope, at a minimum, that this is cleared up
now.
General Smythe
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-04-02 22:30
Sandy, Sandy, Sandy, Sandy....as I said many posts ago, anything I did or didn't do once I was put in that situation, would have been the wrong thing to
do.
and cut the superman crap. I presented a situation for others to discuss in an intelligent matter...instead, I was repeatedly attacked personally.
My original topic post clearly stated how I thought it was sad that as pro and anti abortion foes battle each other, no thought has gone into even minimally
protecting the well-being of the fetus that will eventually be brought into the world.
Instead, you Sandy, make personal attack responses such as "you constantly blame others for the ills in your life"...what utter garbage, and for you to
personalize and trivialize this issue rather than address it's true importance is about as inhumane as one can be.
You pidgeon hole EVERY ISSUE as being States Rights versus Federal rights...get off that high horse please...and watch your step.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go Brent....yes, Go Brent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curt, you stud.
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-04-02 22:33
Smoking Gene......????
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-04-02 23:03
Yes Cricket, Researchers have discovered that certain people can pretty much smoke all they want with virtually no ill side-effects.
Fortunately or unfortunately, a very small percentage of the population has such a gene.
================================================== ========================================
By the way...I NEVER intended for even one moment for anyone to think I was "bragging" about what happened...that is pure utter nonsense.
But this type of personalizing of any topic post goes on far too often on this forum, rather than simply analyze the topic post content and give a
well-thought out response, many here seem to aim their response as to the motive of the writer, and in the end offer conjecture, opinion and speculation
about the topic post writers personal belief systems rather than deal with an issue from a strictly intellectual perspective.
Instead of a forum, it should be called an agnum.
-Alex
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-04-02 23:28
Mr. Smythe.
No, I did not commit larceny.
And your take on the "Watchman" is WRONG.
Their were hordes of people both in California and Las Vegas who DEMANDED this idiot be charged with accessory to a murder.
They had surveillance cameras that showed the perp going into the stall to kill the girl. THE WATCHMAN, (who was the lookout guy) SHOULD HAVE
STOOD TRIAL.
But he didn't. Your definition that you choose to use to pin me with some type of law breaking activity, when that same definition is used on Mr. Watchman,
COMPLETELY EXONERATES him...
So, what's more important to you, protecting Mr. Watchman, or understanding my pain.
by the way, I called your ramblings eloquent, and I only questioned the final part about ethics.
-Alex
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-04-02 23:34
Alex...you have to admit ....this one was over the top!
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Joe Marquez (---.mis.prserv.net)
Date: 01-05-02 01:06
Alex whines (poor leetle gurl)
>>and cut the superman crap. I presented a situation for others to discuss in an intelligent matter...instead, I was repeatedly attacked personally.<<
So assaulting a pregnant woman in front of her minor daughter (whom YOU pretended to care about, but didn't know for SURE that her mother was
pregnant) is okay for a macho commie lib like you right? YOU almighty Alex knows whats right for everyone else.
You should have gottne a medal, and then you get attacked personally. No one EVEN touched you cry baby. No one assaulted you as you did a pregnant
woman. Hopefully she keeps your info and if her minor daughter has any psychological problems may you can be held civilly liable. You go girl!
[email protected]
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.25.136.150.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-05-02 01:36
Alex,
C'mon (blush, blush) who told you? At my age, it takes a lot of Viagra.
Curt
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-05-02 03:42
Joe, the girl in the front seat was NOT her daughter, as I stated in the beginning, this pregnant young lady looked to be in her late teens, maybe early
twenties...the girl in the front seat was probably a younger sister...You will be thrilled to know I didn't check to see if she was pregnant.
Curt, I'd be careful about taking any product with a name that rhymes with Niagra.
-Alex
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Sandy Price (---.lakehavasu.ispchannel.com)
Date: 01-05-02 13:35
Alex. When you constantly want laws added to our lives regarding any potential changes it is only natural to distinguish these as federal or state/city. I
believe I made it very clear that we can protect the unborn, animals etc., by changing the laws of our cities.
My concern is when you all try to bring these new laws into the Constitution. You don't seem to realize that the Constitution gives us the right to make
changes within our cities. This concept of division of authority is what America is all about.
Take up your changes with your city council.
Don't you see that when you want a law such as pregnant mothers smoking, you are starting a law that would have terrible consequences for thousands of
other innocent men and women? Do you ever think out of your box about stuff like this?
Americans have become selfish to a terrible degree and think of the federal government as the only authority for their actions. It shows the rest of us that
you are unable to understand the division of powers that have protected all of us for 227+ years.
I guess I can't blame you for your lack of understanding. I understand that civics classes aren't being taught anymore. What scares me is that you probably
vote for house and senate members who also want the feds to be the total authority.
Get out your constitution and give it a quick read. Pick up a few articles by Jefferson, Madison and Franklin and see why the division of power was so
essential.
At this point of time in America, too many people are totally unaware of the safety of our government when run by the constitution! Everytime the house
and senate meets, more of the constitution is eaten away by those lazy men and women. 60% of the issues discussed should be kicked back into the
proper authority. I watch and have attended the Governor's conferences and see them waiting in line to turn over their authority to the feds. The whole
system is lost in their lack of ability to govern.
We elect men and women who look as if they were chosen by casting directors rather than dedicated Americans. Those of us who actually bother to vote
often use absurd reasons for our choices. For the last 11 years we have voted against a candidate and not for one. So we end up with what we don't want!
I thought the internet would be used to really hash out some of the issues that are running our government. I was wrong! The issues aren't even defined
accurately! I blame the uneducated posters who are unable to define the agenda accurately and then locate the authority for correction.
Someday I hope someone will have a forum where the issues are broken down into state and federal threads. From there each state will clearly define their
existing laws and how they are being broken. When we get it all fixed in our minds the problems can be solved! Then we should demand that the divisions
of government follow the same rules.
Just think of the wonderous debates we could have if we defined our terms and could investigate all the various sides of any issue...I'm dreaming!
I will return the forum for open whining!
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.25.136.233.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-05-02 14:41
Alex,
I don't really take Viagra yet, but will admit that it now takes me all night to do what I used to do all night. : -)
Curt
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-05-02 16:45
Sandy, Sandy, Sandy, Sandy, Sandy....
I found your words first ironic, than condescending.
"Think out of the box" you say...now that is ironic, right up there with smoking gene.
"selfish"...
who's selfish Sandy, me, or mom, who REFUSES to think about her own box that is growing her future child.
I also offered a compromise...as long as the planned fetus has the right to sue mom for blatant irresponsibility (once out of the box), than mom could
smoke. (and I'm not even happy about that compromise, as it will keep many lawyers busy)
The way it stands now, Mom could have her smoke and eat it to by lying years later as to whether or not she smoked while pregnant.
As for me going on a mission to make or change a law...no thanks.
Common Sense tells me if society has such little regard for the nuturing of a fetus that will one day be their own child, they get what they deserve...all I ask,
don't do it front of me and force me to accept such a rampant act of stupidity and violence toward another.
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-05-02 16:50
Sandy, I posted on another thread that you see everything as either Federal or State issues. (I think it was the lesson to be learned topic post) I think you
have just proved that here.
Common Sense should supercede both of state and federal perspectives.
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: General Smythe (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 01-05-02 17:15
Mr. Alex:
Why is it that those who do not possess a trait always think that
others should display it?
Common sense - if you had it you would have kept on walking.
General Smythe
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (209.179.129.---)
Date: 01-05-02 17:43
According to you, I should have just walked on by, like the song says.
Now that would have made me par for the course. What we all strive to be. par.
Your logic breaks down because kids under 18 years of age were involved, both the younger girl in the front seat, who was not her daughter, and the fetus
to be baby someday.
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.56.53.93.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-05-02 19:37
Alex,
There is a reason for the separation of Federal and State authority and/or power. It is in the Constitution.
Amendment X.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the
people.
Some have read it and understand it, some haven't. Which one are you?
Curt
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: General Smythe (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 01-05-02 20:18
Mr. Alex:
Why is it that those who do not possess a trait always think that
others should display it?
Logic- if you had it you would have kept on walking.
General Smythe
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Mark (---.austin.texas.net)
Date: 01-05-02 23:58
Alex,
This may have been mentioned before, but should we assault/kill abortion doctors or just walk on by?
Mark
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: General Smythe (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 01-06-02 00:31
Mark:
It depends on whether they smoke, or not.
General Smythe
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Mark (---.austin.texas.net)
Date: 01-06-02 00:33
Generalissmo,
What if they are smoking while aborting? What if the smoke damages the fetus prior to the abortion?
Mark
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-06-02 00:36
I think Sandy's philosophy is closest to mine on the point about abortions and doctors. (Alex attempts to turn the angry throng against each other)
Most of a guys vote happens when his lever is pulled, so to speak.
-Alex
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Joe Marquez (---.mis.prserv.net)
Date: 01-06-02 01:12
Alex, if you park next to me, be certain not to pull MY lever. I'll knock you for a loop if you'd attempt to assault me. (you wouldn't, I rarely have people try
and confront me, especially for no reason, as you did the pregnant woman and her minor accomplice)
Pregnant women should not smoke. Pregnant women shouldn't drink alcohol. (although there are supposedly some merits to some alcohol) Pregnant
women maybe shouldn't engage in certain strenuous activities. At which point would Alex (the god of thought/action police) step in. If the woman was
eating a meal that wasn't proper? Obviously cigarette smoke isn't CERTAIN to hurt the fetus as Alex has already stipulated by virtue of his 'smoking gene'.
But certain fats, peptides (and other things I know nothing about) could put the fetus in immediate danger. Why isn't Alex seated in a restaurant taking food
from other pregnant womens' mouths. Because he doesn't believe in any of the crap he/she purports to be true.
What about the emmissions coming from the woman's car? Did you check to see if the car was safe? How old was the front seat passenger. In some states
(North Carolina is one at least) prohibits passengers of a certain age from sitting up front in case of air bags (whether or not the vehicle is equipped with air
bags or not). Alex, I'm sure you aren't the villain you try and pretend to be. Your little story has generated a large volume of posts (very few backing either
the idea that your story was real, or that you were right to violate the pregnant woman) I'll leave it at that, but DON'T pretend to care about the unborn. If
you did you'd be doing a lot more that pretending to assault pregnant women.
[email protected]
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-06-02 02:50
Joe, I just visually demostrated how I removed the cigarette from the lady (without ever touching her) and asked him if that was assault.
He instantly sneered and said "of course not".
Ah, talking to the normal people again, it sure feels good.
Now back to you.
If I remove lint from your coat, is that assault.
NO, it was probably leftover dinner.
-Alex
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-06-02 03:40
Alex...(in true Joe fashion) you asked if it was assault...only if the lint was on her @ss! I refuse to take this thread seriously any longer. Forgive me!
Reply To This Message
Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-06-02 05:39
Well, I'm trying to infuse humor where only Joe'sm's dared thread.
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