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Although I didnt get to know you all that well, I'll miss the common link we shared. I joined up to the board after the heyday, but it is still a great tool, and I hope it transitions to a great honda/import forced induction board.
I want to thank you all for helping me into my transition to boost. Especially Holden, whose website got me thinking more.
Initially, I went supercharger because I thought it would limit my desire to upgrade, and that I got stuck with one I "won" on ebay.
Although I was happy with my initial results, I was rather depressed with the decrease in HP over the 6 months with a perfect engine still to boot. Instead of trying to fix a dying horse, I chose a simple route that would be more reliable (no belts) for the future.
So needless to say, I was presented with an offer I could not refuse. I was able to get a complete turbo kit for basically the cost of me selling my charger, btc, cam gears, header, intake and exhaust minus labor to remove the charger and put the turbo on.
Here is the details:
t3/t04e 60-1 stage 5 wheel
spearco air-air intercooler
tial wastegate
blitz BOV
Cast Manifold
2.5" DP mated to a 3" cat with a 3" thermal
vortech 12:1 FMU
This kit will enable me to sell most of my current setup and still break near to even.
Thanks you all. I'll be sure to post dyno results in a few weeks. This kit should get me over 250/180 (i hope) and then some.
Brad
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 08, 2004 09:17 PM: Message edited by: gsrteggie ]</font>
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Wow, going over to the dark side huh? Well, tell me how it is cuz I contemplated whether to go turbo or supercharger, & I chose the latter. I've recently started boosting so I haven't gotten sick of it yet. Post the dyno when you have it hooked up [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] Good luck...
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Let's just hope the problems you failed to fix were Supercharger related and don't occur with the new turbo setup.
Darkside=FI (any form) by the way [img]wink.gif[/img]
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CROM...You took the words right out of my mouth!!!But you know if he has issues with the turbo setup like the JRSC he would never admit it here [img]tongue.gif[/img] It wont matter what FI he runs....if the FI is not installed/tuned correcty it will never run right. Patience is the key...diagnose and solve those issues one by one and you will have an awesome setup! you just cant be impatient when it comes to tuning and expect a good end result...oh well we could have helped if he let us [img]graemlins/thumbs_down.gif[/img]
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I am hoping its supercharger related too... And I would be humble to admit it if it werent. We'll see. This is more a deal I could not pass up than being totally fed up with the supercharger, and not wanting to fix what I had. Although my problems do play a factor.
Tell me, if you could almost break even by selling your supercharger, intake, header, exhaust, and other misc parts, and turn out to be over 250 horse (and increase of 60 hp based on a setup identical to this one on a b16), it's cheaper than what I would need to figure out what's wrong with the setup, install a stepper pulley and related equipment.
It makes sense to me.
and btw, by saying the darkside, i meant the darkside of the darkside within forced induction.
Please all, do not take offense that I did try to figure out what is wrong. It was a deal I couldnt pass up.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 09, 2004 05:16 PM: Message edited by: gsrteggie ]</font>
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OK, so you got a GREAT deal on a Turbo kit. The real question is "Can you afford to replace/rebuild the engine right NOW if your failure happens quickly ???"
Sadly, the real secret that dominates the Turbo family is ENGINE FAILURE. If you have a stock Honda/Acura engine, the proper term is WHEN you have a failure... not IF. This almost always happens within six months... especially if the car is tuned moderately aggressive... or better. Only the really conservative tunes survive past the 'year' mark... with a rare exception thrown in just to keep things interesting.
Odder still, the Turbo family seems to ACCEPT this dire destiny... and usually without complaint. This makes little sense to me, because the occasional engine failure within the JRSC family almost always comes with heavy Bi*&$ing, complaining and finger-pointing... yet, in either case, the engines themselves have been forced to function with stresses and loads that are 40-100% greater than those found in the engine's stock form... well beyond the intended design limits.
A well tuned turbo engine will make more peak HP than a similiar Supercharged powerplant... which is MORE stress. In addition, the power is delivered in a non-linear form... which also creates MORE stress and FATIGUE within the engine.
The bottom line is, if YOU are happy... then I am happy for you. Either path offers great reward... and commands great respect from the Import Scene that surrounds you.
So, go and make power... and kick AZZ !!!
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you definitely raise valid points that make me rethink all boost, and they are being taken into consideration.
What I have to ask is if those turbo cars were just making too much HP for stock engine.
I mean if a car is doing 250 supercharged or turbocharged, I do not see a difference beyond lower intake temps for the turbocharger (b/c of intercooler). However, running additional boost, as in any application, raises the stress level in my engine, and obviously, increases the wear.
As for my engine, my compression and leakdown figures are close to stock, and identical to preboost. (190-205, 1,2,2,6) Granted, I can easily spin a rod bearing or blow a head gasket (solved by some head studs), which is not related to piston ring and valve train condition that the test checks.
Tell me if I am wrong, but being conservative in boost with some reduced timing (I am think -2 degrees to avoid any detting issues) and plenty of fuel, I do not think the 8psi turbo system will increase my chances of engine failure than over a supercharged system currently on my car.
I think anyone expects engine problems eventually when their car is nearly doubles in HP to the wheels, hence the turbo community accepting that fact. Being lower HP, the jackson community is not as used to it, but as we see with Holden, the engine eventually gives way no matter what you do.
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I don't think it's really fair to use Greg (Holden) as an example. His car has taken more abuse than almost anyone I know, yet it still performed like a champ for YEARS (4+, if I'm not mistaken). His car shouldn't be used as an example of engine failure, it should be cited as an example that all of us should strive for.
Without this post becoming a turbo vs. supercharger argument, I just wanted to add how I believe turbos will eventually lead to engine failure. Although boost is boost, we all know that superchargers (roots style) do not run in boost all of the time. Our bypass valve permits us to run in vacuum most of the time. Turbos on the other hand, cannot help but boost all of the time.
Gsrteggie, I hope that you're making the best decision for yourself and your car. Other board members have done the same (gone to turbo), and they've loved it. But they're reasons were not because they could not make adequate power with the blower. The problem underlined here are most likely tuning issues, which will increase when you go turbo. Either way though bud, best of luck to you.
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One cannot compare a JRSC @ 8psi to a DRAG III kit @ 8psi... given adequate tuning, the turbo set-up WILL make more peak HP at equal boost levels. This is the benefit of intercooling... without a noticeable loss in CFM. I have tuned stock B16A2's with a DRAG III kit to nearly 280 wheel HP at 10 psi... I have never tuned a JRSC B16A over 220 wheel HP at this boost level. Also, remember that the JRSC delivers the increased HP in a linear fashion... gradually increasing the stresses on the internal parts equally throughout the rpm range. A turbo on the other hand will have essentially N/A stress levels on the internals of the engine right up to the point where the turbo begins to spool up... then the stresses increase exponentially as the power spikes... more like you would see if you used Nitrous, only not quite as fast. It is at this point in the powerband that the stresses are the roughest on the bottom end.
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turbo's run in vaccum as well.
As for Holden as an example, that was an example of how all modified cars eventually peace out no matter what the HP level. It was used to show that turbo guys run more HP hence may have problems faster, but eventually it happens to everyone. I thought that was easily understood.
I feel my problems are more than tuning since I had the power and lost it with nothing changed, and hours upon hours on the dyno could not explain such a loss of that magnitude.
Bah, anyways, I hope this works out, otherwise I have a turbo kit/car to sell.
