Hello everyone, I'm new here , just wanted to say hi!
I have a pair of Model 19's and I love them... i'd like to learn more about Altec horns/drivers etc..
Thanks,
Mike:snickerpup:
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Hello everyone, I'm new here , just wanted to say hi!
I have a pair of Model 19's and I love them... i'd like to learn more about Altec horns/drivers etc..
Thanks,
Mike:snickerpup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike m
Hi Mike, Welcome to the board ! Is there anything in particular that you are looking for or just history,etc..
Multicells,Sectoral,Mantaray, Large format or Small format drivers.The search feature works well there has been been countless threads on horns and drivers already if you can't find what you are looking for.Then start a new thread.Do you have some pictures of your 19's, what do you have walnut or oak.Mine are oak and love the sound as well.Great vintage speakers.Regards ~ AB
AG- I'd like to learn about the different horns and the drivers that go with them. I'm fascinated with the wide variety of drivers that Altec has produced! I'll use the search feature to learn more on this subject!
My 19's are oak, they are complete with the grilles-they even have the "tangerine" phase plug tag on them still. I've enclosed a few pics for you...
I own all of the Klipsch heritage series speakers(except the belle/la scala) and was perfectly happy with what I had, until I came across these model 19's... they are just big friendly speakers with great sound..
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike m
Cool, well let's get you started have you ever had the XO's replaced.You may want to put new foams around the horn as well that's how they came stock.Also it looks like the veneer on your cabinets could use some oil,or wax liquid gold.The veneer looks like it is drying out on your left speaker you may want to apply some kind of protection to it.This is a good start.If your Xo's are original the sound on your 19's can and will get much better with some maintenance night and day difference.:D
AB,
Yes I've been using LG on the veneer-those pics were taken the day the arrived at my home. Who does the XO repair or where can I buy the parts? How can I tell if the Xo's are bad or need replacement? These speakers sound pretty good, it would be amazing if they could sound better!
Do you notice a difference with the foam surrounding the horns? I do not have the foam on my 19's..
Thank you AB!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike m
Your Welcome :welcome: Mike Anytime !!
The ground lugs over time can oxidize as well and should be bypassed I highly recommend.I will get you the info you need if you want to put the foams on them.I think (Hear) there is a difference on my horns.I recommend you install them.They are $55 + $8.95 shipping they are selling on eBay for $109 here is there email Paul & Debbie Darst <[email protected]>
I'll put together a photo album on photobucket for you to look at with the foams and Crossovers.If you need anything else let me know I would be more than happy to help you. :2thumbsup: Regards ~ John
Thanks john ,
I look forward to viewing the pictures!
Yes, Hi Mike....Altec Best has you on the right track. I too thought that the 19's couldn't possibly sound any better than they do, but some of the simple little mods that the experts here have come up with really make them shine. This speaker is one of the best around.
I run a set of La Scala's (highly modified) along with these 19's & I can tell you that the 19's have no trouble keeping up.....Enjoy
Thanks J Henry! AB has been more than helpful !!
Thanks Guys !
Hi Mike here they are.This is what you need to rebuild your Crossovers.
Capacitors
a) 21uF , so you will need a 12uFand a 9uf
b) 16 uF, so you will need 2 8uF's
c) 8 uF
d) 6 uF
I used Solen 400v DC
Resistors if out of spec.
a) 3.9 ohm 10 watt 2% audio grade 2 will be needed.
b) 3.0 ohm 10 watt 2% audio grade 1 will be needed.
c) 2.0 ohm " " " " " 1 will be needed
DO NOT replace the (Coils-Inductors) they are part of the voicing and very rarely go bad ! Only if they are bad should you replace.Of Course.
The L-pads should be cleaned thoroughly with De-oxit or can be replaced if needed but they should be OK with a cleaning you should be able to tell by checking while using them if cleaning would be enough.
Replace all wires with new 14 awg minimum. 12 awg would be better.
You will be completely floored when you hear the difference if your Crossovers are original.And most important bypass the ground lugs with ground wire so you have direct wire grounds.I have a picture in the album showing where the bypass should be made.:2thumbsup:
You need anything else let me know Regards ~ John
Model 19 Modifications pictures by Altec_Best - Photobucket
John ,
wow thank you very much! Thats a lot of info.. Where do I buy the parts ? I'm not sure if I'm capable of doing this tho.. hehe
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike m
Parts Express.com
Madisound.com
Hi also new here just recently bought my first altec hope to learn more here.
Welcome Johnny26, Enjoy your stay :2thumbsup: Regards ~ John
Welcome Johnny26!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike m
You can do it.First get all the parts you need.Then take some close-up pictures to refer to.And then just swap out part for part one at a time.Just solder them in the same location that you take them out of.Put your ground bypass wires in and then change all the other wires.Just make sure you do them one at a time and put them back in the same places same as capacitors & resistors.Get your self a can of De-Oxit 5 and clean the attenuators(L-pads) and that's it.Make sure you give them a good listen to.Because when you install the rebuilt Crossovers you will not believe the difference.Good Luck :2thumbsup: John
Thanks again for the info about modifying my 19s, but yesterday I heard some distortion coming from one of the horns that I'm now concerned about.
At first I thought it was just the recording because these speakers have sounded fantastic with almost anything, but then I played a few more songs and realized the noise is very noticeable and obvious on piano music, but playing anything else I can't hear it. The best way I can describe it would have to be as a fuzzy/static-y sound, almost like a maraca. Also, in comparing both speakers, the sound from the HF horn in question sounds slightly lower in volume.
I've tried different sources and even completely different electronics, all with the same results.
Thanks in advance!
Well, if you have already swapped speaker wires and the distortion remains in the same speaker, then the crossover or the HF compression driver could have a problem. Try swapping the crossovers or the HF compression drivers to determine if it's one or the other. If it's the crossover, check all the wire connections and connect all the ground lugs together before rebuilding the crossovers. Also cleaning the L pads would be good.
If it's the HFcompression drivers, then send them to Great Plains Audio! Just one idea...
Torn HF alum diaphram can make a noise like crinkling up celophane
If you overpowered you could have mechanically damaged or electrically damaged the phram...
Ok, its the driver.. I switched the driver and the noise stayed with it..I'll be calling GPA in the morning. I hope its not too expensive!!
Also-The drivers dont have the Altec logo on them anywhere. Is this normal? I've enclosed a couple pics... There is sticker on the back with 902-8A hand written on it..
Oh I'm over the limit for uploads..
See if you can take the photos at a lower resolution. Here's a pic of one of the drivers that was in my 19's. (An 802 - 8G). Apparently it was quite common for the factory built cabinets to have unmarked drivers in them.
If you can get a photo posted, those more knowledgable than me can tell you if it's the real deal.
OR use photobucket or Flickr they are free.You can also go back and delete some old pics in the Attachments section. It sounds like the diaghram to me. Gpa will have new ones for $90 bucks. I wouldn't use anything else like those cheapies on ebay they are garbage.Take the back cover off and inspect the diaghram but keep screwdrivers away from the "Fram" after all it is a magnetic field.Look closely at the wire leads that go through the diaghram if they are about to break this will happen either way a new diaghram is your only option really.
I was going to obtain a used set of 19 crossovers & modify them with all new components & then I searched & came up with this schematic for the 19 & I thought, well why not just build a new set from scratch. I'm curious as to the values you've given here. Attached is the schematic I found (I think from memory on this forum somewhere) & somtimes these forums raise more questions than they answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
I have limited knowledge when it comes to taking on such a project & so I am confused by the values here & those in the parts list of the schematic.
I can follow the 8, 16, 21 & 6mfd of the capacitors (but can't you get capacitors in 21 & 16 mfd.....is that why you have to make them up from 2 different values?)
L1, L2 & L3 are the inductors?
From the schematic the resistors needed are R1 & R3 are 8 ohm L Pads, R2 & R4 are 3.9 ohms, R5 is 2 ohms & R6 is 3 ohms.
Your parts list calls for
a) 3.9 ohm 10 watt 2% audio grade 2 will be needed.
b) 3.0 ohm 10 watt 2% audio grade 2 will be needed.
So I'm confused here - I assume R1 & R3 are being deleted & replaced by fixed value resistors, R2 & R4 are the 3.9 ohm resistors, but then we have R5 at 2 ohms & R6 at 3 ohms.
So is this schematic an exact copy of the original?
Hope I haven't made this all sound too confusing & appreciate any help.
John
Sorry....this site won't let me upload the schematic N1201-8A, but here's the parts list.
C1 - 8mfd
C2 - 16mfd
C3 - 21mfd
C4 - 6mfd
L1 - 0.3mh
L2 - 2.7mh
L3 - 0.77mh
R1, R3 - 8ohm L Pad
R2, R4 - 3.9ohms
R5 - 2 ohms
R6 - 3 ohms
Here's the schematic.....by Jim Easley
Thanks for the schematic, it's interesting.
Nominally, it's Butterworth with LP at 625Hz, 2nd order and HP at about 1500Hz, 3rd order. Plus adjustable high and mid EQ for the horn.
But that's just nominal. I'll have to see if I can figure it out with actual driver impedances. Wonder where the acoustical crossover point really is?
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Henry
Hi John, You should have grabbed them that's what I did I bought 2 pair and still have my originals and I just rebuilt the donor sets.
I posted them for Mike M. as he was unsure if he could do it so I posted as simple as I possibly could.The values I posted are for an original Model 19 crossover that is how they came from the factory.The inductors/coils rarely go bad if ever.They can but all is needed is to check them for the most part.
Now for Jim Easley's schematic it is just a tweak,you can tweak them forever.I recommend you try to just rebuild them first to factory spec,if you don't like you can always tweak till your hearts content.But just replacing the caps & resistors cleaning the L-pads bypassing the ground lugs made such a huge difference any further tweaks will be unnecessary IMHO. I can almost guarantee you will Love the improvement.I can probably find you a dozen more schematics of tweaks of the crossover they are someone Else's preference and you may not necessarily like them.So this is why I recommend starting with the original design and then go from there.
The original crossovers will just bolt right back in this is why I recommended you snap up a pair of donors.After rebuild you can hook them right up to baffle.If you don't like how the improvements go I would be shocked.;)
PS.Yes the doubled up Caps values is because no one makes a 21 uF 16 uFso the ones that have 2 caps that's the reason.Well I used Solen's and they don't have them in those values.You can always have them made up but there is a quanity limit and custom values are very expensive so it is just easier and cheaper.
[quote=Altec Best;1828930]Thanks John,Quote:
Hi John, You should have grabbed them that's what I did I bought 2 pair and still have my originals and I just rebuilt the donor sets.
I posted them for Mike M. as he was unsure if he could do it so I posted as simple as I possibly could.The values I posted are for an original Model 19 crossover that is how they came from the factory.The inductors/coils rarely go bad if ever.They can but all is needed is to check them for the most part.
Now for Jim Easley's schematic it is just a tweak,you can tweak them forever.I recommend you try to just rebuild them first to factory spec,if you don't like you can always tweak till your hearts content.But just replacing the caps & resistors cleaning the L-pads bypassing the ground lugs made such a huge difference any further tweaks will be unnecessary IMHO. I can almost guarantee you will Love the improvement.I can probably find you a dozen more schematics of tweaks of the crossover they are someone Else's preference and you may not necessarily like them.So this is why I recommend starting with the original design and then go from there.
The original crossovers will just bolt right back in this is why I recommended you snap up a pair of donors.After rebuild you can hook them right up to baffle.If you don't like how the improvements go I would be shocked.;)
PS.Yes the doubled up Caps values is because no one makes a 21 uF 16 uFso the ones that have 2 caps that's the reason.Well I used Solen's and they don't have them in those values.You can always have them made up but there is a quanity limit and custom values are very expensive so it is just easier and cheaper.
Starting to make sense now. So this "Jim Easley" schematic is not of the original....I wasn't aware of that....thought it was the original design. I agree with your comments & just want to rebuild the original crossover with newer components. I'll go ahead with that & let you know what I think.
Back to the original though......Surely there must be a schematic somewhere for us to build a brand new crossover to the original design? Is there something in this design that is an Altec patented secret????? Are there components there that are not available to anyone else??
I would imagine there would be a healthy market for someone to come up with this product, (& please don't anyone mention Iconics version as I think that lives in fairyland) as I have read countless threads from people trying to resolve this problem.
Just an observation from someone who knows nothing about electronics.
John I just rechecked my paper work and sure enough there is a typo resistors are:
3.9 ohm two will be needed
2 ohm one needed
3 ohm one needed
I'm so sorry for any confusion.It was last summer when they were done memory isn't what it used to be.:o
So that maybe the original schematic.
Again I'm sorry for the confusion I will go back and edit case someone else see's it I want it to be correct.;)
No problem....but if this is the original it will make things a whole lot easier for someone to build one from scratch.....I wish Jim Easley could chime in here & clarify.
Yes it is the original :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by J Henry
That's great news! So now I might go the whole way & build a set from scratch. Should be an interesting comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
Thanks John
Hi John, I was talking with Dave,and he said have a look at this thread from 2006.Regards ~ John
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/alte...vers-ebay.html
Thanks John,Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
From what I can make out here, Jim states that as far as he can tell the schematic of the 1201-8A is the right one for the 19.
They are identicalQuote:
Originally Posted by J Henry
Great!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
I can't wait for your opinion or I would like to see the expression on your face after install and you have a chance to listen.It should look like this.:D :2thumbsup:
I'm going to perform these xover upgrades myself.
Well, at least the caps. What's the motivation for changing resistors? Typically age should not be a concern, right?
I replaced the crossovers in my Klipsch Forte IIs (1990), as I posted in the other thread, with new Bob Crites xovers, and the Fortes now eclipse the 19s in some ways. The change was pretty amazing.
[quote]
You won't regret it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Folbrecht
You only change the resistors if out of spec 2 of the 4 of mine were out of spec so replaced all.They are so cheap why wouldn't you just to be sure.Quote:
Well, at least the caps. What's the motivation for changing resistors? Typically age should not be a concern, right?
I replied to the statement in the other thread, that will change believe me, if this is the case then there is something wrong.Your XO's are toast or driver issues but I'll bet it is the XO.Caps are way out.I had a similar experience.Before I put the Crites XO's in my Cornwall II's. I wasn't impressed with them at all in fact I liked the originals better so back in they went.Anyway I thought the Cornwalls had better bass and mids.When I replaced the XO's with the new rebuilds in the 19's the difference was dramatic.They blow away the Cornwalls and haven't looked back with the 19's since.:D Rebuilding the crossovers in an original set in the 19 is the single biggest recommendation I can give.The performance of the speakers was night and day. ;)Quote:
I replaced the crossovers in my Klipsch Forte IIs (1990), as I posted in the other thread, with new Bob Crites xovers, and the Fortes now eclipse the 19s in some ways. The change was pretty amazing.
Paul, I've own Cornwalls and have listened to K-horns but for me the 19s are superior. I also prefer the original caps but found I had to solder a wire to the 4 ground lugs to restore the HF response. Maybe listening to another pair of 19s will tell if something has significantly changed on yours. Or perhaps you just prefer the Klipsch sound, which some people do.