The Herberts V Andy Tyrrell

I recently found a post on my message board from a member of a relatively unknown punk band called The Herberts. The message was a personal attack on me which included false accusations regarding my politics as well as a bit of childish name calling.

I posted a counter message on their website here which was met with even more personal abuse. I have invited them to come on to this forum to debate why they feel the need to abuse me in this way. I chose this forum because it is the most widely used amongst local music fans, I hope the moderator doesn't mind.

Most people who know me, even those who have dissagreed with me, and/or dislike the music I choose to play, must agree that I have always been prepared to discuss anything openly and with good humour. I am quite happy for The Herberts to dissagree with my politics as well as intensely disliking the music I like, but I won't let personal abuse go un-addressed.

Cheers Andy.

LETS GET IT ON

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I hope the moderator doesn't mind.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah be my guest

I sort of agree with the Herberts guys badly typed philosophies....a majority of the anti capitalist movement are just kids rebelling against something there dont really understand...there was some shit on tv the other day where a kid refused to work because he didnt agree with capitalism..yet he still claimed benefits!...Ive got news for people like that...you have to work whenn you are communist!!

Not knocking Andy for his beliefs,I dont agree with them but at least he is genuine about them...if he went to a reclaim the street demonstration..I have no doubt his intentions are within the nature of the event...and not to take as many drugs as possible and smash up Mcdonalds.
Whatever personal digs they may have made...they are not fair he is a nice guy and does get a lot of respect...or perhaps that is what the problem REALLY is...jealousy.Deal with it..

They've got pictures of themselves on the site in camo-gear, including a balaclava holding a shotgun....

Bless, they'll grow out of it.

http://www.geocities.com/romperstomperoi/IRA_matt.JPG

privelliged kids trying to be revolutionaries and talking about politics they dont understand?
pot.......

Ok, I've read all the replies to date from the Herberts and I'd like to respond to as many points as possible.

Matt, the person who started this uses the name ALPUNK on Hostboard and his comments were abusive and personal. In response to that I posted a message on your guestbook. I'll happily accept that you are not Nazis if thats what you say, but it was merely the kind of response you must expect get when you use the language that ALPUNK did. I am not a Communist, I am a Socialist ( if you want to discuss what socialism means to me then we'll have to meet up in a pub somewhere). Will you please clarify what you mean by 'trendies' 'cause I'm pretty sure I'm not one (and I've never beaten anyone up in my life. I'm incapable) and I'm certain Tom Robinson isn't either. If you listened to his show on BBC 6music you'd see what I mean. You say you dont want to make enemies and think there is something wrong with anyone who thinks you do, then the following lyric from one of your songs isn't going to help your image much.

Violence in our Minds

Walking down the road with a dozen pals of mine
Looking for some aggro just to pass the time
We met a stupid hippie who tried to run away
I punched him in the nose just to pass the time of day

All the lyrics I read on your website seem to promote violence including the ones you didn't write eg: Where Have All The Boot Boys Gone, by Slaughter And The Dogs.

When I was an out and out punk in the late 70's (I owned a copy of that Slaughter record in those days, I might still have it somewhere) I behaved in some ways that I'm not proud of now so perhaps your aggression can be put down to youthful exuberance. Ultimately, I respect you for getting a band together and having the balls to get up on stage (eventually). I don't agree with what you stand for but that doesn't mean we have to hate each other about it, does it? By all means debate our differences but lets try and refrain from abuse?

Ants. Thank you for your kind words and I'm sure if we talked more we probably would find some common ground.

Cheers Andy.

rite firstly dont judge me on what alpunk does say! we are different people!! and all i stand for is traditional Oi! values, have a laff listen to some music and have a laff. thats all i want to to and all i want to be! and i know wot u mean bout people thinkin we're nazi's buy my mannor of dress, because yes national front has virtually ruined the skinhead cult along with the media! if you whant to no our true values i suggest the book "spirit of 69" that should convince you were not all little terrors smashing every thing up! maybe i can lend u it wen u tell me about socialism over a pint lol oh and if u do still have slaughter and the dogs i will buy it off you, a prime example of northan punk [img]smile.gif[/img]

oh p.s jonny ret or who eva that was at a fancie dress party adn its not a shot gun its a pool cue. sorry to disapoint you

Matt, I'm not judging you on what ALPUNK posted, I'm judging ALPUNK on what he posted. After reading your website, however, it's clear we are unlikely to agree on much, especially politics. I may not have read the book Spirit of 69 (I have read quite a few excerpts and a lot about it) but you have to realise that I was at my most impressionable age between 1969 and the post punk Oi movement and I witnessed many acts of violence by it's supporters during that time. You may be just having a laugh but the skinhead ethic is one I'll always oppose. I definately would like to meet you so we can talk properly about these things and I've got the perfect time to do it. As you may have read on an earlier topic, I am supporting Peter and the Test Tube Babies in Februrary at the Winter Gardens. PATTTB are an out and out product of the Oi movement from the late 70's, a band you should see if you are serious about Oi. And a band I'm happy to support.

Cheers Andy.

ok i'll b there at peter and the test tube babies,wouldnt miss it for the world "iv been cheated tonite, TRANSVESTITE" who knows we could even agree on somethings. we were hoping to support PATTTB but i think we have left it far to late. and i as far as politics are concerned i keep out of that side, i have my own oppinion, the band isnt a political statement just a change for the local music scene, coz come on there is no varity at all and even you must admit that.

You're in a punk band and moaning about lack of variety????LOL!

rite i have no idea how all this has started but it seems to be getting totaly outta control!!! i think this needs carming a touch im more than willing to talk personally over a beer at nxt gig (if u pay [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] i dont personally abuse people i dont know! all i no is that u are basically calling us nazi's and wanna chat about benn the leftie. i am t oup to discussions about things in a less havey environment i think so ok as u said ur open to talk bout ur belives are u a commie???

i swear to god matt, you cant type for shit!!!!
i know matt, he's not a nazi. he's alright.

I've read the outdated tripe on the website.

Punk ethics are dead anyway.

Plus, if those lyrics are about who I think they are about, you are pretty sad. Taking personal digs in lyrics are not very funny or clever. You are writing about alot of things that you need to keep to yourself, otherwise you will get into some serious trouble.

SUBURBAN REBELS

They're the sons and daughters of well off bankers
Tom Robinsons' army of trendy wankers
Flared blue jeans and anoracks
With yellow streaks all down their backs
Who act so tough when their on tv But trendy wankers don't scare me

;Chrous:

Oi!, Oi! Oi! Chosen few
This is what we think of you
Surburban rebels playing at reds
You would be urban terrorists
You don't scare us with your badges and banners
You know fuck all about heavy manners

You're the middle class kiddies from public schools
Who write the slogans on the toilet walls Like Tony Benn's clones in plastic masks
You wave a hammer and sickle, never Union Jacks Got lots of mouth when your in a crowd But when your alone you don't speak loud

I mean, come on. This is shit and offensive. If you are trying to get enemies, you are going the right way about it.

rite for starters that song is not taking a personal dig at ne 1 as that particular song is a cover! hence "tom robbinson's army are trendie w***ers" which is tom robbinson who sang that annoying motorway song!!! so its not offencive in ne way bout ne 1 in particular!! its just laffing at the situation of all these people who think there alt by protesting but wen it comes down to it there nothing spesh! if ne thing you should b supporting us!!! but if u feel happy wiv the way so called trendies can beat u up and push u around then thats ok, but we feel that is slightly wrong!!! and no were not out to set enemies, but if u interp our stuff that way, u have something wrong with you!

Right then it seems that every 1 has decided to put this all down to me then. ok First of all i want to say we arnt priviliged kid we are all working class kids whos families dont have much money.Im not trying to romance about this but its the truth. The reason i went onto Andy's forum and "verbally Abused him" is because of his take down the union jack banner . as I find it offensive that so many people gave their lives for the good of this country and you get people who dis respect that with bullshit slogans. As for my politics im am not just some A LEVEL kid who thinks he has an idea . i know what i belive and i will explain it to any one of you. Id like to apologise to Andy for some of what i wrote IE: personal abuse , But i will not back down or apologise for my political and moral views. Im not trying to criticise andy here but dont you think socialism is dead anyway i mean it just dosent work does it even the once socialist labour party have realised this and have changed thier ways . In the end andy you are not the problem its a few people on this forum who have no understanding of these matters and just type any old shit and think they know what they are talking about. As for our lyrics you may think they are poor but at the end of the day were doing what we love and that is playing punk rock . you may think they are violent but then its a violent world we live in im not condoning it but there you go if i see you at peter and the test tube babies we can discuss it then over a beer. Cheers Ali

oh yeh and thanx matt for droppin me in it to save yerself lol!

Ali, I accept the retraction of your personal abuse, and as I said in an earlier post lets put it down to youthful exuberance. As I don't know you personally so I can't judge what political knowledge you have and I haven't done so yet.

As far as the Take Down The Union Jack banner goes, you really should have found out why I take the stance I do before you attacked me, a simple question on my message board would have done the trick. The whole campaign was about rediscovering our Englishness, (in a time when the Scotish and the Welsh are moving their administration centres away from London), and where that fits into the multicultural society we live in today. The Scots, Welsh, and Irish have an intense sense of national identity but the English, on the other hand, only seem to harbour pride in our imperial past. I strongly oppose imperialism and the icons that represent it ie: the monarchy, the class system and, of course, the union jack. None of this sentiment is in any way disrespectful toward those who fought for for the freedom of Europe, and I am very grateful for their sacrifice. That, however, doesn't mean I have to be proud to be British, which I am not.

As for Socialism, no Ali I dont think its dead because it's an ideal. However, Socialism, in it's purest sense, will never prevail. The same goes for the notion of a completely free market, capitalist society. Most of us are reasonably happy to fall somewhere inbetween. We all have to bend a little if we are not to break.

I'm pleased you're into punk as it's probably my favourite genre. I lean toward bands such as The Clash, The Jam, The Adverts, The Vibrators and the UK Subs (to name only a few) whose lyrical references to violence were to put it in a negative light unlike yours. Punk was the biggest political influence for me in my youth. It allowed me to be angry without being violent. It's a shame your influences cant do the same.

Cheers Andy

ali i havent dropped you in owt, i was gettin challanged to all sorts adn wanted to no y!!! i agree wiv most of what u said and i recon if u cant b proud of were u came from wot can u be proud of????

Matt, Why can't you just be proud of who you are? Wrapping yourself up in the union jack doesn't make you a better person, only you can do that.

Cheers Andy.

Andy! i read your reply and in some parts i agree with what you are saying, however with reference to your stance on britain i have to dissagree> I am from a Northern Irish background with a family who are staunch loyalists and amomg the comunities of Northern ireland there is a vey strong alliegence to the union flag the queen and Britain , More so than in England . The people in Northern Ireland are more British than people in this country . so im afraid i dissagree with you on that part I think as a whole people should be proud to be British as well at English or whatever. But you have to remember that the country is far better as a united Kingdom than as several countries. as for the monarchy yeh i take your point but the monarchy is part of the countries heratage and you have to respect that. as for our imperial past alot of what we did i dont agree with infact some of what we did was totally wrong but that was the nature of the times. Im also afraid I am proud to be British and nothing will change my mind on that. Im not trying to make an enemy of you i think we just have different views ( i dont agree with what you are saying but i will defend your right to say it) i think taht sums it up best hey at least were not racist. one last thing the violence i have never gone out of my way to fight with someone however if i am in that sort of situation i will not back down. violence is not something i enjoy but sometimes it is nescessary

cheers Ali

i am proud of myself adn who i am. but i like the idea of unity, every1 working working together to benifit us. and i disagree with your bands that look down on violence, the vibratore - automatic lover were it says "i want to beat people up instead of treating them kind" doesnt sound to anti violent. and we are not violent people im sure u will agree that it is best to get this anger out in song and music rather than actually doing it on people, i am against violence it is has to b a last resort there are other ways to solve things, but as its been said before times have changed and it is a violent world which is a shame, i have been beaten up before for no reason by a gang of druggies that attacked me from behind just have to deal with it and i think it is a time to rebel

Wow, this is all getting very cosy. It's great that in only the space of a couple of days we've managed to get from silly name calling to sharing some common ground. I feel so much better now than I did at the start, don't you?

I have always had a problem with this whole national pride thing, basically because it had nothing to do with me. I didn't choose to be British, I just happen to have been born that way. If we follow that rationale, should I also be proud of being right handed or, more distubingly, white. If, like Ali, you're born into a very patriotic background you're bound to feel a strong sense of belonging. There is no intention, on my part, to try and change anyone's feelings in that regard. I fear, however, that such strong feelings sometimes stifle individuality.

Further to the issue of violence, come on lads your songs are very pro-violence. Violence In Our Minds is nothing more than an incitement to beat people up. At no point in any of the songs you play is violence portrayed in a negative light. Times aren't very different today than they were in my youth. There was a huge amount of gang violence, alot of which I witnessed. Many of the punk songs I listened to at that time reflected that violence but never glorified it like your songs do. Regarding the lyrics from The Vibrators Automatic Lover I've had a look and I can't find the line you refer to. Would you please put up a full transcript of the lyrics you've looked at. I might be looking at a different version. I'd be willing to bet that in the context of the song it doesn't quite come out as you portray it.

One final point, Matt says that he likes the idea of unity, everyone working together to benefit us all. Hang on, isn't that communism, or at the very least, Socialism.

Cheers Andy.

Matt,

I think if you read between the lines of those Vibrators lyrics then you'll see that he's saying there's something wrong with him, so much so that he want's to "beat people up instead of", what he would normally do, "treating them kind". Hardly a promotion of violence, unlike your lyrics.....

Hanging in the sub way, waiting for the scum
Especially trendy faces, kick their fucking bum
When they plee for mercy, we will show none
Skinhead, skinhead, 'til the job is done

Which anyone can see is positive promotion of violent behavior.

Trust me Matt, things haven't changed from, as you put it, back in the day.

Cheers Andy.

hahahaha them lyrics still make me laf!!! come on its betta showing our agro this way than actually going out and fighting dont u think???

if things could b this simple....

World politics as......football teams

USA: Man Utd - Utterly Arrogant and motivated by greed. If they suffer the slightest injustice the whole world hears about it. Leader sees himself as bit of a visionary, most see him as bit of a Tyrant.

Al Qaeda: Leeds - Thugs who like to take out opponents behind the play. Capable of upsetting just about anyone. Leader is a paranoid nutter.

UK: Aston Villa - Trying to move forward having been stuck in the past for decades. Have a leader who loves the sound of his own voice, full of rhetoric whilst ducking the important issues.

France: Ars*nal - Perennial bridesmaids. Have a huge armoury but heavily criticized in the past for misfiring. More likely to bore you to death than to be a real threat to anyone. Leader has a habit of turning a blind eye.

Pakistan: Chelsea - Trying hard to be one of the big boys, but has upset a large percentage of it's supporter base through its over involvement with foreigners. Could soon experience a revolt within its own ranks.

The Taliban: Liverpool - Strict disciplinarians where members are measured as much by what they wear and do as who they are. Leadership suffered a bit of a shock recently but clinging to life and always hard to beat at home. Very much a bloke's team.

India: Sunderland - A sleeping giant, not a contender at the moment but with a huge supporter base. Likes to think it's opinion is worth plenty, yet is largely ignored by non fans. Local derbies can be a bit fiery.

The Northern Alliance: West Ham - An undisciplined rabble in need of sponsorship dollars.

Israel: Tottenham - Rabid supporters tucked away everywhere and usually only become vocal when they start winning. See themselves as the chosen but in reality suffer from an over inflated sense of self. Local transport can be a bit dodgy.

Palestine: Fulham - A team currently looking for a home, had been on the periphery for many years before the mid 90s. Not regarded as a big contender but has a strong youth policy. Funded by rich Arabs.

Japan: Everton - No attack, last campaign of any note 1942. Big player financially in the 1980s, however struggling a bit these days.

Iraq: Millwall - Serious hard ars*s who could be on the way back. Opponents prefer to see them out of the Premiership. Most of their neighbours hate them, they know it, and they don't care.

Russia: - Newcastle - Once a great superpower, recently in decay. Have chosen some real muppets as leaders.

Uzbekistan: Leicester - Stuck in the middle. Has a bit of an ars*hole but light on ammunition.

Germany: Wolves - Tendency to self destruct. A strong history but off the scene of late. Unfortunate uniforms.

Australia: Southampton - Completely harmless. Not a contender. Just in it to make up the numbers. Supporters are loyal but regularly embarrassed.

Egypt: Derby - Had a crack at world dominance and though the remnants are still there they hark back to the glory days. A bit over defensive and vulnerable up the middle.

Please note that no country can be associated with Middlesbrough. The closest thing was Lebanon but apparently certain parts of war-torn Beirut are bordering on pleasant.

you so cut and pasted that, it was so obvious, cos we could actualy read it.

'and yes we have progressed in 2 days i thinkbut i do think times are very much differnt to bk in the day'

you were not there 'back in the day', Andy was.

who in the hell are you????? were did you pop up from? and yes i no i copied and pasted that, did i claim ne thing else? i seem to think u'v been stickin ur ore in the monkey abuse business as well. oh well so i take it, its round 2 of ur oh so great insults.

im james, i didnt realy pop up from anywhere.
up with socialism an all that.

aaaaahhhhhh good old xitup i persume?? y is it u seem to be in our face all the time u always pop up like that bad smell in public toilets, this was between us and andy, like b4 u pop ur nose in, i do take it u go to college from other comments in other places?

its like 1 of the last verses after the chourus

there is something on my mind
i wanna beat people up
instead of treating them kind
im winding my self up
real real tight
feel like death in the morning
and a dog at night.

and i didnt mean wot i put in communist or socialist way i no wot i mean but im shit at typing wot im thinking, and yes we have progressed in 2 days i thinkbut i do think times are very much differnt to bk in the day

sorry didnt c the link to the lyics!!! its not on there but after the last verse it does the chourus again then it says wot i put above + some extra's the whole lyrics dont seem to be on here the song was taken off the comp album "teenage kicks".

Automatic lover x 4

Here she comes she's crazy,
But she knows the scene.
She carries an automatic pistol,
But she ain't got no magazine

Run for cover, run for cover,
She's the kinda thing I was warned of by my mother

Well here I am,
Outta my brain.
Everything's comin',
Back round again.

Well there you are,
Movin' real real fast,
It's a long long night,
I don't think you're gonna last.

Automatic in her hand,
She wants to wear the pants.
There's something wrong here honey,
Won'tcha give me half a chance

You talk about,
This or that glory.
But me honey,
I'm a different story.

When you get mad,
An' start countin' up to ten,
I'm outta that door,
An' on the streets again.

This is still puzzling me alot. matt is just a walking contradiction no offence mate but you have contradicted yourself about a million times. As fo the violence does it matter that much to you Andy ? i know billy Braggs music is all luvvy duvvy because ive listened to it and if you like it thats fine by me but If you had been subjected to the violent attacks that me and some of my friends have over the years then i think you would maybe agree with our Lyrics more.and at the end of the day thats what they are just lyrics its not like were singing about how we've just beat some one up. Now As for the Nationality how can you not be proud of your country? you should be grate full you live in a civilised country such as ours because if you lived in say afghanistan you would be killed for having the views you do.do you not feel any sense of belonging to a country do you not want to live somewhwere where evrry 1 has a common bond?

Ali

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ALPUNK:
but If you had been subjected to the violent attacks that me and some of my friends have over the years then i think you would maybe agree with our Lyrics more.and at the end of the day thats what they are just lyrics its not like were singing about how we've just beat some one up.
Ali</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
with respect ali, getting chased a bit, or getting smacked a couple of times isnt a "violent attack", its part of growing up. andy is talking about something alot more serious.

i wasnt just talking about that i was talking about when ted got put in hospital but im not really botherd cos it shouldnt happen at all

Nearly forgot If like you say ed a few smacks or a chase isnt much well thats all wer singing about but people are still getting upsett about it
I cant be fucking arsed with this anymore

oh yeh Olly and chubbs know loads of people who have been stabbed and beaten up .

Ali,

Firstly, I think the reason Matt seems to be contradictory, occasionally, suggests that he may not be quite as hardened in his opinion as you are. I'm not saying that you having a hardened opinion is, particularly, a bad thing, but maybe Matt needs a little more time and debate to fully realise where he stands. After all you are both very young and I can't remember having such debates at your age. If I'm wrong in saying that Matt then please forgive my presumptouosness.

The violence does matter if, like in your songs, it's being promoted rather than just a reflection of the times we live in. As a matter of fact I have been subjected to a few violent attacks, the worst being on FA cup final day in 1978 when four "mods" beat me up , leaving me nursing a broken wrist and requiring several stiches to a knife wound. I understand why you feel your lyrics are necessary, but I'm afraid I can't agree with them.

I thought I'd dealt with the national pride issue already, but I'll try and clarify it further. The stumbling block in this issue is the cadence of the word proud. I feel strongly that to be proud of something you must have to have had some input into it ie: I'm very proud of the relationship I have with my wife (who I happen to think is a very beautiful woman), I'm intensely proud of my two sons who are both intelligent, talented and likeable, I also feel some pride toward my limited ability to play the guitar and that people have come up to me after gigs and told me that they enjoyed what I do. Like I said in an earlier post, I just happen to be born where I was. I haven't had any influence on my nationality so why should I be proud of it? I am, as you put it extremely grateful to be in this society. We have, probably the best democracy in the world (although it's about time we had a proper written constitution). And of course I have a common bond with my countrymen, and like anyone I would stand and fight for those things. If we were threatened again, like we were in 1939, I would be straight in there, but I would be fighting to retain our democracy and way of life, not for queen and country. When I look at my family I feel love and pride inside me, I feel nothing when I see the union jack or hear the national anthem because they don't represent the things I believe in.

I appreciate that you don't agree with my logic in these issues but I hope you can at least respect me, as I respect you, for having an opinion.

Cheers Andy.

the term boring has hit amazing new highs