-------- Creation and Innovation in the World of Drumming

I had a great discussion with a long-time mentor of mine last night after a gig in which he brought up a very good point about being innovative as a drummer, which is something that is VERY rare. He told me that although my performance was great, everything that I had played has been done... even though I was spontanious and creative - I didn't do anything 100% original. I took it in stride and thought, yeah well it's a pop gig... I can't strech out THAT much here! But he was not trying to offend me, he was unveiling a great subject...

He asked if my fave drummer was still Vinnie Colaiuta, to which I replied: OF COURSE! He then asked me what Vinnie has created or innovated as a drummer. I thought for a while and could not come up with a quick answer to this other than... uhhh, he has played close to every style of music possible and very well... ummmm, he has an amazing sense of time and it seems like he can play and comprehend anything.

Ok sure - but what has he shown us that nobody has shown us before? Well... he was known for playing odd-time with Sting and making it sound straight (4/4 against an odd time signature) is what I mentioned, but then realized that a lot of the times that was really Sting's idea (Seven Days).

There might be a drummer per decade that comes along and really innovates... does something new, original, exciting, amazing. Let's see if we can come up with a list of true creative innovators on the drumset through time. Maybe Vinnie is not as "innovative" as I thought. That's OK, he is still the best in my eyes. He takes A LOT from Tony Williams and Stewart Copeland, and of course many others and makes it his own, like we all do but I am talking about PIONEERS in what they did...

50's
-Buddy Rich (first drummer to possess such technical abilities on the kit)

60's
-Max Roach (first drummer to be "musical" and really modulate time)

70's
-John Bonham (to be honest, I am not a big fan - but he was onto something!)
-Tony Williams
-Billy Cobham?

80's
-Stewart Copeland (radical and original)

90's
-Terry Bozzio (I think you know why!)

00's
-Virgil Donati (He has really pushed the envelope for modern concepts and ability)
-JoJo Mayer (For mastering the art of current electronic music and flawlessly applying it to the drumset)

So I think I covered a drummer or two from each decade from the 50's to now. Can you think of anyone else who has really contributed something ORIGINAL and groundbreaking to our art?

* Before you reply please keep in mind that this is not, by any means, an anti-Vinnie thread [img]smile.gif[/img]

Very interesting topic [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I'll add Clyde Stubblefield and Jabo Starks for create the funk beat

Steve Gadd, the "father" of Dave Weckl and then all other who follow

I did a quick search on MD DVD archive and this is 2 small articles that can help on this:

MD January 2000

1) Gene Krupa: "Gene was the first drum
showman. He influenced the attitude of the
entire public toward the drummer."
2) Chick Webb: "Chick was the drummer
who initiated soloing and playing good
time."
3) Buddy Rich: "Buddy came along and did
things that seemed impossible."
4) Steve Gadd: "No one plays with that con-
viction, note after note."
5) John Bonham: "He took rock drumming
in a very clear direction toward a bigger
sound."
6) Ringo Starr: "...for making everyone
want to be a drummer."
7) Tony Williams: "Tony invented things
with the language of drums."
8) Elvin Jones: "God lives in the space
between when Elvin's stick goes up, and
when it comes down."

And this:

Mitch Mitchell brought the jazziness of
Elvin Jones to rock; Ginger Baker popu-
larized the extended drum solo; Bill Bru-
ford fused miscellaneous percussion and
the drum set into a single innovative in-
strument; Carl Palmer put a patina of ac-
ademic legitimacy on rock drumming
and expanded its tonal and visual possi-
bilities.

I'am sure some pro here can add more specific things, for example a song or a album that definitely changed the world of drumming
[img]wink.gif[/img]

Excellent contribution, donu!!!

I was going to mention Krupa and Gadd in my post too [img]smile.gif[/img]

Funny how you mention "the creators of the funk beat" - when that is another topic we discussed that night... (anonymous) inventors of beats. I mean, why do we not know WHO invented the "rock beat" or "the shuffle" or "the disco beat". I mean, SOMEONE did... where did those all originate and from who specifically?! Not many people know this, if any! Very puzzling.

i'll throw Zigaboo Modeliste in when it comes to funk.He came up with this kind of 'swampy' feel.

Earl Palmer invented the backbeat upon which all modern drumming is based.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 18, 2005 05:44 AM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>

Jo Jones for developing hihat technique
Kenny Clarke for bebop drumming and then Max Roach for taking it further
Max also layed the groundwork for what Terry B and Marco have gone on to do
Earl Palmer, definitely
Ringo...
Billy Cobham (For Simon P, Terry B et al.)
Bill Bruford for his approach to the sound of the kit
Stewart Copeland for pushing pop drumming

When you really think about, Vinnie may be the greatest drummer of our time to some people, he plays a less significant role in terms of being a true innovator if you ask me. Is this perhaps a something he is lacking?

However, I would say that he is innovator in terms of creating fills that are extremely creative and surely never heard before by me.

Colaiuta's main innovation to the craft of drumming is his ability to continually play the unexpected, to never repeat himself when improvising, and to NOT rely on 'licks' to put forth musical ideas. On top of that, his sheer technique and how he applied advanced metric subdivision on the kit during his tenure with Zappa raised the bar and made it feasible for others to reach for the impossible themselves. [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]

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he was known for playing odd-time with Sting and making it sound straight (4/4 against an odd time signature) is what I mentioned, but then realized that a lot of the times that was really Sting's idea (Seven Days)

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which Sting lifted from Bruford (KC), Cobham (MO)...that wasn't an innovation at that point. I'm sure it goes back farther than Frame by Frame.

What Vinnie innovated can be found all over Joe's Garage. He innovated very wierd fills, wierder than Michael Giles, another out-there innovator.

You look at pics of Giles and his set up and you would swear it was an early pic of Neil Peart.

I know what VC innovated, the 32nd syncopated fills on the HH and between the HH and SD (think Dong Work for Yuda). I've never heard anyone do that before he did like that.

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Originally posted by benrand:
I know what VC innovated, the 32nd syncopated fills on the HH and between the HH and SD (think Dong Work for Yuda). I've never heard anyone do that before he did like that.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gadd did that stuff (not exactly, but it was surely the inspiration) back with Chick Corea and Al DiMeola. It's also a big part of the Gary Chaffee studies. Vinnie def put his stamp on it though. The thing is, Vinnie has never been someone to rely on 'licks', and that can't be said of many drummers (Tony Williams included).

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Allan Holdsworth:"The whole concept of this lick thing is kind of offensive to me, because I don't think that's what it's about. A lick to me emphasizes the fact that it's something that you've played before, which is something that i really don't want to do, even though I do it, because when you run out of ideas, and you're lost and you're stuck, my brain will only do so much. Then i go, "Oh geez, I'm not playing that shit again am I?" But really, the whole idea of music is exactly the opposite of that. You have to practice things that will allow you to have control, I suppose eventually. The idea is to practice so you have enough control over the instrument to actually be able to play what you can hear, and then that way you really are truly connected to the instrument. To play licks means that you sat down and figured out a few licks and are trying to find a place to put them all."

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<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 18, 2005 11:56 AM: Message edited by: drumming sort of person ]</font>