Time Keeping

I'm not sure why this isn't talked about more since drummers are a big part of this.
How is good time developed?

I can play with a click all day and never faulter, but take it away and put a few musicians with different concepts of time and everything goes to h!$# !
I find playing jazz is easier since my movements are smaller. But in rock when I'm playing with a much more dynamic range things can get a little pushed or pulled.
Time should be internalized so the physical part shouldn't matter. It's just when playing live when the adrenaline kicks in, the time (pulse in my head) can get confused.
Anyone have this problem?
I have a tendency to slow down now because I've heard my self rush so many times in recordings. Now I'm slowing things down ever so slightly.

A bass player friend of mine said you must lose your ego and listen to not just my time but listen to everyone's time and make it work together. His concept was that if you are told to only look at a pack of matches on the table and nothing else you will fail after a short time. Now, if you can look at the pack of matches and ALSO be aware of everything else in the room, it will be a lot easier to keep my eye on the matches. Interesting? No?

So now I'm trying to listen to the whole band and not think about my tempo. It actually helps us play together better and it sounds better even though it may sway a hair.
It's a deep topic.

I try to really listen to the music as if I were not playing. I try to make it sound like a good CD, or a good live performance, one that I would enjoy listening to (NOT ENJOY PLAYING. BUT ENJOY LIASTENING TO. There is a large difference.)

As far as physical aspects not playing a part, I would disagree. Getting smooth and even motions (like the Moeller technique for example) will help keep things even and flowing. Like riding a bike, or walking. The sound of the drums is just one part of a circular motion. When we walk we dont step, halt and step. Same with playing a groove I think. Getting fluent motions can affect one's groove in a BIG way.

The thing that help me the most with my time is not thinking about the notes but conentrating on the SPACE between the notes. Giving the space it's due value and keeping the space even during the criticial moments like bringing the backbeat in on 2 after nailing one after a large fill. I think Dennis's pocket is amazing, I look to him as a role for good groove and time. One of my ALL TIME favorite CD's that is a perfect example of what I'm talking about is [ame="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000DGT6/qid=1071607705/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-6540038-8195240?v=glance&s=music"]Gary Willis's BENT.[/ame]
I just looked on that page and there is a free sample of what I'm talking about. Everyone owes it to themself to stop and listen to the drums on the first sample tune, "Hypmotize". Trust me. Deepest. Pocket. Ever.

As far as the different feeling playing live, I know what you mean. The adrenaline kicks in, you have to play harder maybe.
Don't.
You've done it a million times before, just do it the way you know works. Relax, and play. Let the mics do the work for you. And if you DO dig deeper, don't let it get out of control to where you're just bashing. Turn up your monitor if you have to, just don't bash. Stay in control.

Nice pointers Steve.

I have trouble with time also when the adrenaline & excitement levels increase. The space between notes is also a thing I listen for and I also try to 'think ahead' (ie be ready for that next fill, accent, etc) so I don't get caught out and rush things!

Really being relaxed and ensuring you hit the centre of each head every time also helps me - you get more power out of the instrument that way. Everyone in the group is responsbile for the time & if you approach it that way, the music wins.

I used the excuse that my time gets messed up because the physical aspect of my playing needs to be worked on. Like moving from cymbal to cym, drum to drum. Again, my bass player said if you have good time you will not use the physical as an excuse. You hear it and play it and that's it. So, I agreed on that but only if it's simple enough technically. He basically said if you can't do it physically don't sacrifice the time. Play more simple but don't sacrifice the time.

Some guys that don't play the drums come on my set and play really nice time (whether it's loose or precise). So, it's somewhat debatable as to whether you need all of the physical togetherness just to translate good time. I think they hear it and then play and don't really think about technique but have that inner clock happening.
It's the chicken or the egg question. I tend to try to balance both out because I've worked on alot of technique in the past but that didn't neccessarily give me better time. If I hear the tempo moving, is it my mind or is it the physical?

Dennis played with a big band at Berklee and after the performance he was kind of hiding and shy. He was embarassed because he sped up so much and he aplogized to the guitarist. When they came back to the head they could barely play it. So, it happens to everyone.
I'm not saying Dennis doesn't have good time, but it's something that can be such an enigma.
Time can sound stiff if it's thought about too much but can go out the window if not thought about enough.

I know the drill of having nice time with the click and then on a gig watch the time push and pull.

We don't play in a vacuum and are influenced by those around us. If we focus on complementing the sounds around us and those sounds start to rush or drag, we'll be influenced to follow. In these cases you have to make a choice:

Do I flow with the subtle time change?
OR
Do I stand my ground and say "no this is where the pocket is" even though this may result is an obvious (or not so obvious) clash in tempos between players?

Tris "locksmith" Imboden TOTALLY sped up this past Friday at the Carlos gig. Did it SOUND or FEEL bad? No. It felt great.

I think Weckl has a very interesting POV about speeding up and slowing down: doesn't matter. Well, we ALL know that's not exactly true, but to Dave's point, if the BAND feels better playing fast, then is that bad?

Personally, I'm MOST concerned with time when playing with vocalists because the phrasing of the words and melody are MUCH more affected by speed, both too fast or slow. My method is to REALLY know a phrase in a song, sing it in my head, and keep that as the reference point for tempo.

Just my 2 cents...

Danny

Hey, it's an issue we have to
deal with. I find that watching
Steve Gadd play is the best rem-
edy. He is all quarter-note. I
think you must find those notes
and accent them, not by hitting
them harder but by hitting the
others softer.

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Peter, I depend on that method all the time. But the hard part is when you have to play VERY even and sound like a machine. A perfect example is the 16th hihat part on After The Love Is Gone. John Ferraro is also one that does the HEAVY quarter note pulse, and he was saying on that tune, it's SOOO hard because the hihat 16ths need to sound totally EVEN.

But, I agree. The quarter note or other pulse is VERY important and really helps with time.

I know what you mean. In that situation,
I would bring the level of the 16ths
down and the kick and snare up, letting
them be the "nome" for me, if you know
what I mean. Another thing I sometimes
do is pardiddle through the pattern be-
cause it's a more dynamic pattern and
emphasizing the 1/4's, if that makes
sense. Do you know what I mean?

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