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Well,
I just looked at the bottom of one of my posts and saw it said I've been a registered member since 2002. In truth, I have been registered and posting since 1999 at the latest. No problems, but any ideas why web-guys???
Anyway, the point of my post is to show you a post I put up just after I joined that fired up some hearty disscussion (but I since can't find). It was six years ago almost but forgive the double posting...
"Is Dennis still "Dennis The Menace"???
Before I even start, I must stress that Dennis Chambers has got to be one of the all time greats. His power, speed, dexterity, chops and groove are among the best ever. I have his videos and one of his books, and had been dying to see him for years. He has been inspiring to so many people!
I got my chance to see him when he embarked on a clinic trip of the UK. I was excited to say the very least!!!
Unfortunately, (and I know that I am going to step on a lot of people's toes here...but....) he seemed to be a three trick pony.
1. Crossing his foot over to play both hi hat and double bass pedals.
2. Doing a crosshanded tympani move on the cymbals, (crossing one hand over another whilst playing cymbals.
3. Playing fast tom flourishes around the kit.
I grant you, Dennis is phenomenal at these things which he does. But that's just the thing. His videos are nearly fifteen years old and he's still churning out the same stuff.
There is just no way that the average drummer down the street will ever be half as good as him...it just seemed to me like I'd seen it all somewhere before.
What I think really clinched it for me...(and I know this definitely won't be the case for all of you)...is that Dennis seemed more than just a tad egotistical.
Some are thinking, "He's one of the greats...he's got a right!" but I'm afraid that's not one of the qualities that I look for in a clinician.
A chap in the audience during a (rather drawn-out) questions and answer segment of the clinic shouted out, (actually as a compliment), "Dennis, can we hear you play some more!". Dennis snapped back saying,
"No. Why the hell do you people shout things like that out. Listen to me, that's how you learn, not by watching me....what do you think? That you will watch me and go home and play this s**t? No, you won't be able to, you aren't Dennis Chambers are you?" (I sh*t you not...)
The room went silent. Everyone was gobsmacked. The organisers, (a company called FreddieGee Promotions) jumped in to stop the nervous silence with a raffle, but everyone was stunned. In the interval all anyone could talk about was how rude he was being. Hardly an example for the toddlers and the younger drummers in the room!!! He did have a fair point, in the fact that nobody else there could have done any of that......but to say that????
There were other comments he made, and the fact that he generally seemed as though he couldn't be bothered to be there....like he had something better to do. This wasn't just the fact that he was tired either, I've spoken to lots of people that have seen him at different clinics worldwide, and have said that the same types of things had happened there too.
I got a chance to meet him afterwards but I wasn't really as excited as I thought I'd be, especially after seeing him be so rude to members of the audience.
However I phrase this, it will sound like I'm slagging him off, but he was really just doing the same tricks over and over. His power is phenomenal and
his speed (like I've stated before) is amazing, but as far as being a PIONEER of the instrument.....that's a different story...
MP
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yeah thats incredibly egoistical...i mean like you hear people in the vinnie clinic mp3s saying play some more...or slow it down..shouting stuff out and vinnie just makes a joke out of it, u know and i guess he probably just takes it as a compliment... acually..your story reminded me a bit about mike mangini at a clinic i attended of his not so long ago...he was saying (literally) this at his clinic: "The only way to learn something is to stick to it for 2 weeks....its useless trying to work on more than one thing at a time...trust me i would know, im a college professor"
he was basically saying that his approach was the only right approach...well i certainly dont practice like that...i will almost always have 2 or more things that im working on and i will split my practice schedule or time to fit the things i have to work on...
with dennis though u can tell hes a bit cocky just by the way he plays (u know the whole eyes closed chewing gum) it just comes across like that..even if he doesnt mean it to
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 16, 2005 07:37 AM: Message edited by: S.P ]</font>
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Well, I wasn't around back when you first posted that. And I can see why it might have caused a lively debate. But I agree with it, pretty much - though not because I saw him in clinic.
I came to the same conclusion when I bought all three CAB CDs from eBay one day. I was pretty buzzed - I mean, a stellar cast, right? - and couldn't wait to listen. My first CDs with Chambers and Bunny Brunel, plus I get to catch up with Brian Auger again. When they arrived, I listened to samples from each one, loved what I heard. I then put all three back-to-back in the car changer.
By the time I had listened to all three, I was a bit nonplussed. First off, great music - love it. Second, his playing has much to get excited about. Not many people can get the articulation at the speed he can - only Cobham and Rich are comparable in my book - you can hear every note. Third, you can hear some development in what they play as a group and (most importantly) in all but one of the players. That one being Dennis. He's still doing the same stuff on the third CD, in much the same place in each tune. Oh sure, I won't ever get within a light year of his playing, physically, emotionally, technically, however you want to measure it. But it's the same licks, in the same places, in the same slightly "abstracted" manner - like you could replace any set of licks in one tune with those in another, and you'd not notice the difference. They'd "fit" just as well almost anywhere. It's like he throws in the "regulation" blowing in the same place in every song.
Now, pick another drummer for comparison. Put on three Weckl CDs that cover the same kind of timescale. You will hear development, change, evolution, growth. Some might not like what he's become, preferring the old to the new. But you can't avoid the fact that he has evolved.
I still like Dennis. But I much prefer him on, say, Tom Coster's "Let's Set the Record Straight" where he's mostly about groove. And he can groove.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 16, 2005 07:56 AM: Message edited by: moosetication ]</font>
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Reading this saddens me. Dennis is one of my favorite players, but until just now i never realized that you guys are exactly right about all your points. His playing has not evolved and they in which he plays does seem cocky.
And what he said at that clinic is horrible. Wow.
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Hey Guys,
You think that Dennis does the same thing, what about Steve Gadd...
We are human being with good and bad mood so...
And worse, us artists/musicians are very sensitive, you add jet lag, tiredness and some misunderstood, well everybody can be "rude"...
Anwyay, I don't look for giving an excuse to DC but I think that there is alway a reason for something, unless if the people concerned is well know for being an asshole...
Cheers.
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I had Dennis at my shop in '04. We had a similar situation in that durring the Q&A part after taking questions for about 40 min., a kid (10 or so) said essentially the same thing "Can we hear you play some more?". Man, Dennis laid into him, berrated him, humiliated him in front of 300 people. Finished by saying"You better think twice before you say some shit like that again!'. I was mortified! He then finished out the clinic by playing to tracks from "Outbreak" and the Graffitti album. His playing was unbelievable, those "Timpani" crossovers you refer to, he is now doing from his 18" floor tom on one end of the kit to his 10" tom on the other at mind boggling speeds. All in all the clinic was great, but that incident marred the whole thing. The big wigs from Pearl on hand were very appologetic, but not DC. He said afterwards" he's lucky I went easy on him". Wow!
I think this is maybe what happens when certain personalities are at the point where everyone around them constantly tells them how great they are. On the other hand, I've met Vinnie several times and he is always warm, friendly and gracious. Just different personalities. I got an email from the kid that night cussing ME out I guess because I brought Dennis there. I didn't honor him a response as that was uncalled for as well. You know what though, hangin w/ DC later that night, he was totally cool, laughing, telling music biz stories, raving about Billy Cobham on some Mahavishnu bootleg he had-lol!
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How come Virgil didn't do the CAB CD's? It's always Virgil playing with CAB here in LA at the Spud, never Dennis.
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Nice read. In discussions with my drum teacher some years back, I discovered similar stuff. This was when I first started out and I came to him saying "Do you know Dennis Chambers? He's really good!". Now while my drum teacher agreed that he is an amazing player he also added that hes been playing the same stuff for years and has not evolved much.
If you ask me, evolving as a drummer is a process that should never end, no matter how good you are. It's vital to keep people guessing what's coming next. It's disappointing when you hear a drummer play one track or solo and you've heard it all.
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If I may put on the analyst hat here: Chambers constantly faces a dilemma where he pretty much HAS to do clinics/store appearances, etc. to remind people that he is the "world's greatest drummer" (in his mind, at least), but then he feels like the people who came to watch him and the whole clinic situation is beneath him (because he is the world's greatest drummer). that's when dennis lashes out at people (to remind them that he is the world's greatest drummer). he is basically conflicted about how he should relate to his 'fans' and suffers from some basic insecurities that relate back to his childhood experiences of playing in adult clubs at age 4 and having to prove himself in that harsh setting.
the solution? we could see his 'nicer' clone carter beauford in clinic situations. he closes his eyes, chews gum and tries the timpani crossover. let's just pretend carter is dennis, and we'll all be fine.
D
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As for Mangini, he usually means don't watch TV and practice on your pad at the same time. You must have undivided attention to program your muscle memory to perfect your playing in the shortest time frame. It is hard to argue with his level of development, speed and discipline. Do I agree with everything he, or for that matter Virgil, Vinnie, Weckl or anyone else says? Nope. They are committed to what has worked for them and that makes sense. I don't mind someone stressing what they think is crucial (after all, he's offering the ideas to help you - not put you down) which is a lot different from DC's widely seen and known arrogant behavior.
In my teaching, I stress reading, counting and a rudimental approach to grip because I believe those things will shorten a students learning curve and have seen it work over and over. Those are things I harp on continously, for the same reasons Mangini may harp on his "90 minutes a day, four days a week for six weeks" to get something down for life. It's worked for him so it might work for you. It doesn't take into the fact that we all learn differently, and think differently. In the end, you alone are responsible for your own development. My advice, get several opinions from people who can actually do what you want to do and then use your own best judgement.
Brad
