Evidence

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January 14th, 2007, 06:07 PM
stormchaser

This argument has popped up in pretty much every thread here, so I'll make it a separate thread. Here are the only two arguments for God I've ever heard:

The world is too complex to happen without a God.
Actually, given the size of the universe(known to be either infinite or big enough for this to be true anyway) the odds are higher that everything that has happened would have at some point.

Where did everything come from if not a God?
Then where did God come from? You can say he was just "always there", but why does that make more sense than the universe having just been "always there"?

Every culture in the world has a belief in God!
True. But two things:
You could say it was divinely inspired, but notice nothing like that has happened in the last, oh, 1000 years. And before that it was INCREDIBLY common.

People need to explain things. If they couldn't figure out where things came form,a God was, for the time, the most logical answer.
I've never heard any proof for the Bible being the word of God. Please post any if you have it.

See, there's no evidence against God, but there's no evidence for him. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU. Scientifically, if there's no evidence, it doesn't exist.

That doesn't mean there's necessarily no God. There could still be one, but he just doesn't have any visible evidence. I just choose to believe that he isn't there because I've seen no reason for him to be there.

Any more evidence you'd like to share?

[ January 22, 2007 07:47 PM: Message edited by: stormchaser ]
January 14th, 2007, 10:22 PM
Emmalina

Here is an article I found which contains proof that the Bible is the Word of God:

Please take the time to read this, it will give you many answers to questions you have asked.

The Bible is a miracle! The existence of the Bible is evidence of the one Who works miracles.
No Contradictions

First, the Bible was written by about 40 different human writers who lived over a period of about 1500 years (50 generations). Many of these writers had no opportunity to collaborate with each other and yet, there are no contradictions in their writings! Like no other book, the writers all agreed on such themes as morality (which certainly has changed drastically in a few generations in our society), child rearing (likewise a changing philosophy), husband and wife relationships (which have been altered in a single generation), the character of God, the way of salvation and the birth, life, death and resurrection of the Saviour of mankind, in minute details.
Scientifically Correct Hundreds of Years in Advance

Second, where the Bible speaks on scientific subjects, it is accurate centuries ahead of its time. For example, in a book entitled "None of These Diseases" by S.I. McMillen, M.D. 1, the doctor cites various hygiene laws God gave to Israel. These were far ahead of the knowledge of the scientific world of that time. Here are a few examples.

Deut. 23:12-13. Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad: And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee.

We may be prone to laugh at something like this in our day. However, in the eighteenth century in Europe, human excrement was cast into the streets of cities in ignorance, giving rise to epidemics of typhoid, cholera and dysentery.

We will cite just one more example. In relatively recent years the medical professions have been warning against the build up of cholesterol in our veins since it may cause clogging and a heart attack. A large source of cholesterol is animal fat. Hear what God told Moses centuries ago 4.

Lev 3:17. [It shall be] a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.

Relative to other areas of scientific fact centuries ahead of scientists, see

Isa 40:22. [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Eccl 1:7. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea [is] not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

1Cor 6:18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Job 26:7. He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Prophecy

A third proof of the miracle of the Bible, and thus proof there is a God Who is the author of the Bible, is prophecy.

For example, would anyone care to select a large metropolitan area and predict in advance, and in detail, how that city will be destroyed? The Bible did, and not with just one city, but many!
City of Tyre

The two great cities of Phoenicia were Tyre and Sidon. Ezekiel as a captive in Babylon made some very specific predictions about the seacoast metropolis of Tyre. In Ezekiel 26 and 27 the destruction of Tyre was given in detail (592-570BC)

Ezek 26:3. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

Ezek 26:4. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

Ezek 26:5. It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken [it] saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

Ezek 26:7. For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Ezek 26:12. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

Ezek 26:14. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it] saith the Lord GOD.

Nebuchadnezzar came against Tyre in 585 BC (fulfilling vs 26:7). The siege lasted until 573 BC. When he broke down the gates of the city he found most of the population had escaped by ship to a city they had built on an island about a half mile out into the sea.

Sometime after defeating the Persians in a battle in 333BC, Alexander III in a southern campaign demolished old Tyre and used the materials and dirt (fulfilling verse 26:4) to build a causeway to the new city which had been built out in the water. After a long siege, the island city was destroyed and the materials cast into the sea (fulfilling 26:12).

Eighteen years after Alexander's defeat of Tyre on the island, Antigonus laid siege to the city and again destroyed it. The Moslems were next to win and occupy it for a time but were defeated by the Roman Crusaders. Still later, the Moslems again retook and utterly destroyed the city with a vengeance, seeming to hate the very stones on which the Crusaders walked. All these "waves" of conquerors fulfilled vs 26:3.

Today, Tyre is literally a place for local fishermen to spread their nets to dry. The proud commercial seaport of ancient Tyre has never been rebuilt (fulfilling vs 26:5 and 14) 5.

Numerous other cities could be cited about which series of prophecies to minute detail were fulfilled. Only a few more of the Bible references will be given here to complete the point:
City of Samaria

Hosea 13

Micah 1

(Estimated fulfillment by chance: 1 in 40,000 6
Cities of Gaza & Ashkelon

Amos 1

Jeremiah 47

Zephaniah 2

(Estimated fulfillment by chance: 1 in 12,000 7
Kingdom of Edom and its capitol, Petra

Isa 34

Jeremiah 49

Ezekiel 25 and 35.

(Estimated fulfillment by chance: 1 in 10,000 8
And yet we have not considered the greatest, oldest and most detailed of all Bible prophecies, those that pertain to the birth, life, death and resurrection of the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ!
In 1956 a book was written about the grand prophecies regarding the Lord Jesus 10. It contained the following challenge to the world.

"We Challenge the world - $1,000 Reward Offered!"

"We hereby challenge the world with this double challenge; and we will give $1,000 reward to any one proving either of these two propositions:

(1) Show that there is another book than the Bible in the literature of the world that contains prophecies about a coming Messiah, similar to those in the Bible; and after a lapse of four hundred years gives evidence of a definite fulfillment, in twenty or more details.

(2) Produce any "Christ," living or dead (other than Jesus of Nazareth) who can fulfill even half of the predictions concerning Messiah that we give in this book. We would ask of any who claims or who claimed to be the true Messiah:" (12 specific events relative to the Biblical Messiah are then listed.)

To our knowledge, this reward has never been claimed!
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
His Birth

Location:
Micah 5:2. (about 700 BC) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting. (Fulfillment: Matthew 2:1)

Method:
Isa 7:14. (about 650 to 750 BC) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Fulfillment: Luke 1:27)

Time:
Dan 9:25. (about 500 BC) Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks 11: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

His Lineage

Gen 12:3. (1907 BC 12) And I will bless them that bless thee (Abraham), and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed..mb3

Gen 49:8. (1660 BC) Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee. 9. Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? 10. The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be

Isa 11:1. (713 BC) And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (David's father), and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Jer 23:5. (597 BC) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

His Life

He was to be preceded by a forerunner (John Baptist):
Isa 40:3. (712 BC) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mal 3:1. (397 BC) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. (Fulfillment: Luke 1:17; Matthew 3:1-3)

He was to enter Jerusalem riding on a colt:
Zech 9:9. (494 BC) Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an *** , and upon a colt the foal of an *** . (Fulfillment: Matthew 21:1-5)

He was to bear the sorrows and grief of his people:
Isa 53:4. (712 BC) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (Fulfillment: Matthew 8:17)

He was to be rejected by his brethren:
Psalms 69:8. (993 BC) I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children. (Fulfillment: John 5:7)

He was to be rejected by the rulers:
Psalms 118:22. (1018 BC) The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23. This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvelous in our eyes. (Fulfillment: Matthew 21:42, 45; Acts 4:11-12)

His Death

He was to be forsaken by his disciples:
Zech 13:7. (494 BC) Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (Fulfillment: Mark 14:27 and 50)

He was to be sold for 30 pieces of silver:
Zech 11:12. (494 BC) And I said unto them, If ye think good, give [me] my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty [pieces] of silver. (Fulfillment: Matthew 26:15)

His price to be given to purchase the potters field:
Zech 11:13. (494 BC) And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [ pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. (Matthew 27:3-8)

He was to be smitten, spit on, mocked and beaten:
Isa 50:6. (712 BC) I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. (Fulfillment: Mat 27:26-30)

Psalms 22:7. (993 BC) All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying 8. He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. (Fulfillment: Matthew 27:43)

Micah 5:1. (704 BC) Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. (Fulfillment: Matthew 27:30)

He would be silent before his oppressors:
Isa 53:7. (712 BC) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (Fulfillment: Mark 15:3-5)

Lots would be cast for his vesture:
Psalms 22:18. (993 BC) They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. (Fulfillment: Matthew 27:35)
His hands and feet would be pierced:
Psalms 22:16. (993 BC) For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. (Fulfillment: John 20:25-27)

Zech 12:10. (494 BC)...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced...

Yet, none of his bones would be broken:
Psalms 34:20. (1029 BC) He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. (Fulfillment: John 19:33-36)

He Was To Be Crucified (Crucifixion was a means of death invented hundreds of years after the writing of Psalms 22. At the time of the writing of Psalms 22, Jewish capital punishment was stoning.)
Psalms 22:14.(993 BC) I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. (Fulfillment: Mark 15:24-38)

His grave was to be with the wicked and the rich:
Isa 53:9. (712 BC) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. (Fulfillment: Matthew 27:38 and 57-60)

His Resurrection

He was to be raised from the dead:
Psalm 16:8-10. (1014 BC) I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in **** ; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Fulfillment: Matthew 27:53; 28:6, Mark 16:6)

There were witnesses to his resurrection:
1Cor 15:3-8 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also...

Remember the mathematical discipline called "probability?" Above are over 20 prophesies regarding the Lord Jesus Christ from his birth to his resurrection. The probability of these all happening to a single person is 1 in 246 quintillion (246+15 0's). There are not just 20, however, some have estimated as many as 333 such prophecies!!! There is no need to calculate that probability for if a person will not be satisfied with 1 in 246 quintillion they are not to be convinced!

How about you? Are you sufficiently convinced to make the Bible priority reading in your life? Are you convinced enough to obey the word of God as it applies to your life today?

Psalms 19:7-11 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

It Works!

The fourth evidence that proves the Bible to be the word of God is one which every person may test for themselves. The Bible simply works!

On the subject of raising children (future lessons will center of this subject), those who have made application of the word of God in their families have only regretted they did not follow the Bible more closely.

Pro. 29:17 Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest; yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul.

The Biblical instructions on husband and wife relationships* and order in the home are today contrary to popular belief, but when obeyed the home is abundantly blessed.

Psalms 128:1-4 Blessed [is] every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways. For thou shalt eat the labour of thine hands: happy [shalt] thou [be], and [it shall be] well with thee. Thy wife [shall be] as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table. Behold, that thus shall the man be blessed that feareth the LORD.

The same may be said on all of the subjects on which the Bible speaks, including salvation and forgiveness of sins. For one who has come to Christ and experienced the personal relationship between God and themselves, no additional proofs of the Bible are needed.

1JO 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Whence but from heaven, could men unskilled in arts,
In several ages born, in several parts,
Weave such agreeing truths? Or how, or why,
Should all conspire to cheat us with a lie!
Unasked their pains, ungrateful their advice,
Starving their gain, and martyrdom their price.
-Dryden.

by Weyman Zelder
P.O. Box 662
Orangevale CA 95662

__________

1 S.I. McMillen, M.D., None of These Diseases, Pyramid Publications, New York, N.Y., 1971
2 Ibid, p. 20
3 Ibid, p. 21
4 Ibid, p. 85
5 For detailed study: Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Here's Life Pub., Inc., San Bernardino, CA, 1989
6 Ibid, p. 283
7 Ibid, p. 285
8 Ibid, p. 293
9 Ibid, p. 308
10 Fred John Meldau, Messiah in Both Testaments, The Christian Victory Pub. Co., Denver, CO, 1967, pp. 43-44
11 For detailed study, Alva J. McClain, Daniel's Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks, Zondervan Pub., Grand Rapids Michigan, 1929
12 Dates from this point on are from: Edward Reese, The Reese Chronological Bible, Bethany House Pub., Minn, MN, 1977, p. 512

Also, though Tra and I may tell you time and time again that the Bible is the God's Word and show you proof such as this, you will not be able to see this truth until you open your heart and mind, and really truly want to know, and the Lord will open you heart and mind to His truth.

~Emma

[ January 14, 2007 06:23 PM: Message edited by: EmmaMuffin ]
January 14th, 2007, 10:31 PM
Emmalina

You may not think this is evidence, but all around you is proof that God exists. If God did not exist, there would be nothing. You and I would not be here today. There would have never been an earth. Just look outside. The flowers, the grass, the snow in the Mountains, those are all part of God's beautiful creation. That he made!

I am praying that you will open your heart and mind, and allow God to enter in and show you the Truth, and that it will all make sense to you. Because this is the truth, there is no denying it. You may think there is no proof, but as the Bible says, God created the world, and he created man in his own image.

God has been here since the Beginning of the world, and before as John 8:24 says, "Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM."

~Emma

[ January 14, 2007 06:31 PM: Message edited by: EmmaMuffin ]
January 15th, 2007, 05:58 PM
zozey

Quote:

Originally posted by EmmaMuffin:
You may not think this is evidence, but all around you is proof that God exists. If God did not exist, there would be nothing. You and I would not be here today. There would have never been an earth. Just look outside. The flowers, the grass, the snow in the Mountains, those are all part of God's beautiful creation. That he made!

I am praying that you will open your heart and mind, and allow God to enter in and show you the Truth, and that it will all make sense to you. Because this is the truth, there is no denying it. You may think there is no proof, but as the Bible says, God created the world, and he created man in his own image.

God has been here since the Beginning of the world, and before as John 8:24 says, "Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM."

~Emma

[ January 14, 2007 06:31 PM: Message edited by: EmmaMuffin ]

Emma, are you even listening to what Stormchaser is saying? The only proof you have is proof that I, and stormchaser, don't consider as proof. You don't HAVE proof that there wouldn't be anything wihtout God, it's just what you think!

[ January 15, 2007 01:59 PM: Message edited by: zozey ]
January 15th, 2007, 07:38 PM
the happy heathen

Emma Muffin, I have to agree--you have not posted any actual proof. "It says so in the bible" is not convincing to people who do not accept the bible as fact.

And as for that article supposedly showing the perfection of God's laws...how stupid do you think people are? Do you honestly think prehistoric people didn't just FIGURE OUT THROUGH USING THEIR OWN BRAINS that if you leave your, uh, personal waste sitting out in the middle of your living area it will start to stink and attract vermin? Did they really need the Lord to swoop down and tell them "thou shalt bury your poo?" I think not. Some animals (who are most certainly atheists) have also managed to figure out that burying their waste is a good way to go.
January 15th, 2007, 08:28 PM
Emmalina

Zozey, it is not just what I think, it is what I believe with my whole heart and soul and mind.

Back to the article. The Bible was written by many different authors, over long periods of years, and there are NO contradictions! What do you think that means?

Also, how do you explain the prophesies from books of the Bible written many years before the book wherin the prophesy was recorded were written? How is it possible that the prophesy of Jesus' birth is recorded in Isaiah, but he isn't born until we read about it in Luke? When Isaiah was written, God was speaking through all of the authors of the Bible, He knows everything that goes on in the world, and he has known everything from the beginning of time. How else could these prophesies have been made?

~Emma
January 15th, 2007, 08:59 PM
the happy heathen

Also, how do you explain the prophesies from books of the Bible written many years before the book wherin the prophesy was recorded were written? How is it possible that the prophesy of Jesus' birth is recorded in Isaiah, but he isn't born until we read about it in Luke?

That is as dumb as saying: how could Nancy Drew mystery #431 (written by Ghostwriter #7) agree with Nancy Drew mystery # 3 (written by Ghostwriter #2) unless it was transcribed by the finger of the Lord?

Well, here's more likely explanation: Ghostwriter #7 is familiar with the works of Ghostwriter #2 and made their works of FICTION (huh, just like the bible!) agree.
January 16th, 2007, 12:03 AM
Emmalina

Is There a God?
Does God exist? Is there proof of God? The following offers candid, straight-forward reasons to believe in the existence of God...

existence of God

By Marilyn Adamson
proof of God

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...
1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

existence of GodThe Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

proof of GodWater is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6
2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

existence of GodThe human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?
B]3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.[/B]

The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. It someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.
4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Science, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.

There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence--arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?
5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, disillusioned people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

proof of GodI didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.
6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."8 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."9

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.10

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."11 This is God, in action.

Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."12

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.
If you want to begin a relationship with God now, you can.

This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a relationship with him, you can do so right now by asking him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him [or her]."13 If you want to do this, but aren't sure how to put it into words, this may help: "Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me right now and come into my life. I want to know you in a real way. Come into my life now. Thank you that you wanted a relationship with me. Amen."

God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."14

So, does God exist? Looking at all these facts, one can conclude that a loving God does exist and can be known in an intimate, personal way.

You may think this is exactly what I was trying to prove earlier, but really think and ponder this and you will hopefully see. How could it be possible that we have brains? Is that something that we just randomly got from who knows where? No! God designed each and every one of our brains, like it or not!

If you really cannot accept what I have showed you as proof, and proven through the Bible, how do you think we came to live on earth? How do you think the earth even came to be? How can you explain the creation of our bodies? We have been made by the one true God and Creator of the Universe, and all this I have shown you is proof, even if you don't believe it.

I am praying that you will really want to know, and open your heart, and allow God to really enter into you, and show you. But you first have to have a ready and willing heart, and really, truly want to know the truth.

~Emma
January 16th, 2007, 12:07 AM
Emmalina

Quote:

Originally posted by the happy heathen:
Also, how do you explain the prophesies from books of the Bible written many years before the book wherin the prophesy was recorded were written? How is it possible that the prophesy of Jesus' birth is recorded in Isaiah, but he isn't born until we read about it in Luke?

That is as dumb as saying: how could Nancy Drew mystery #431 (written by Ghostwriter #7) agree with Nancy Drew mystery # 3 (written by Ghostwriter #2) unless it was transcribed by the finger of the Lord?

Well, here's more likely explanation: Ghostwriter #7 is familiar with the works of Ghostwriter #2 and made their works of FICTION (huh, just like the bible!) agree.

What does Nancy Drew even have to do with the Bible? The Bible is not a fictional book, but the
Book of Life. Maybe the Nancy Drew authors were able to read a previous book and make sure that in writing their book, they stayed true to previous story lines, but that is not true with the Bible. Back in the Bible days, the portions of the Bible written from time to time, would not have been readily available to read, if available at all, so how could the Bible's authors consult the other Books of the Bible, and consult them to make them "match" or make sure that they "fulfilled the prophesy." That would not have happened. And no, the Nancy Drew books were not transcribed by the finger of the Lord The Bible is on a whole different level than the Nancy Drew books, or any other book for that matter.

~Emma
January 16th, 2007, 12:15 AM
stormchaser

Quote:

Originally posted by EmmaMuffin:
Zozey, it is not just what I think, it is what I believe with my whole heart and soul and mind.

OH! Now I believe you!

Quote:

Back to the article. The Bible was written by many different authors, over long periods of years, and there are NO contradictions! What do you think that means?

~Emma

The Bible on punishing crime -
"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20
"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5

The Bible on how permanent the earth is -
"... the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecclesiastes 1:4
"... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2Peter 3:10

The bible on seeing God -
"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30
"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18

You have NO idea what you're talking about.

Edited to take out the rude names...do that again and you will be banned.

[ January 16, 2007 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Tra ]
January 16th, 2007, 12:26 AM
Emmalina

Though you may not think so, I do know what I am talking about, and I really am praying, right now for that matter, that the Lord will open your heart, and you will be willing to accept what I have posted as the truth, because it is, and I am trying so hard to make you understand because I care about you and your life and future, and want what is best for you. Why else do you think I come here? I come here because I care, just as our Heavenly Father cares for us in sending his own son to die on the cross so that we might be saved.

~Emma
January 20th, 2007, 05:03 AM
cebula_2005

Quote:

Originally posted by stormchaser:
This argument has popped up in pretty much every thread here, so I'll make it a separate thread. Here are the only two arguments for God I've ever heard:

The world is too complex to happen without a God.
Actually, given the size of the universe(known to be either infinite or big enough for this to be true anyway) the odds are higher that everything that has happened would have at some point.

Where did everything come from if not a God?
Then where did God come from? You can say he was just "always there", but why does that make more sense than the universe having just been "always there"?

I've never heard any proof for the Bible being the word of God. Please post any if you have it.

See, there's no evidence against God, but there's no evidence for him. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU. Scientifically, if there's no evidence, it doesn't exist.

That doesn't mean there's necessarily no God. There could still be one, but he just doesn't have any visible evidence. I just choose to believe that he isn't there because I've seen no reason for him to be there.

Any more evidence you'd like to share?

You say the world is "known" to be big enough for some cosmic bang to occur. How is it known? You don't believe anything you can't see for yourself. No one has explored the entire universe...no one has seen it. How come you believe that but not in God?

Why is the burden of proof on us?

There is plenty of evidence that you refuse to see. It's like bashing my head against a brick wall. I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. Even you who should see the proof and still don't believe were mentioned in the Bible. Even in the End Times there will be people who are visited by plagues and obvious manifestations of God's power and still they won't believe. Moses also dealt with unbelievers.

Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn?and I would heal them."[h] Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.
~John 12:37-41
January 20th, 2007, 06:11 PM
stormchaser

Quote:

Originally posted by Tra:
You say the world is "known" to be big enough for some cosmic bang to occur. How is it known?

What? I didn't mean the Big Bang. I meant planets forming and things. I mean, if the universe were the size of my basement with Big Bang would still be likely. Besides, we know it's that big because or telescopes reach out millions of light years(There's another thing - how could creationism be true if we can see stars 65 million light years away?)

Quote:

You don't believe anything you can't see for yourself. No one has explored the entire universe...no one has seen it. How come you believe that but not in God?

We have seen it - at least enough to know that it's big enough. Besides, there is evidence for the big bang. We can still detect echoes of a massive explosion in space today.

Quote:

Why is the burden of proof on us?

OH MY goodness. YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME. BECAUSE THERE'S NO PROOF! DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS? We don't have to prove there's no God any more than we have to prove that there's no giant invisible lava mouse hiding in Mount Vesuvius!

Quote:

There is plenty of evidence that you refuse to see. It's like bashing my head against a brick wall. I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. Even you who should see the proof and still don't believe were mentioned in the Bible.

This is making me feel physically ill. I'm not even kidding. I'm shaking. You have been saying that from the beginning - but NOT ONCE have you actually posted any! You certainly MENTION it enough - but what IS it? You keep just saying "the proof I've already posted" or "you wouldn't understand." I CREATED this thread as a place for you to post evidence - NOT as a place for you to CLAIM that you have! Really! Post some! Every time I've asked you to, you just say "There is evidence all around us..." without actually saying what it is! Please. I suppose that you have posted some "evidence", but even you seem to have admitted that I've debunked it in this thread.

Look, God doesn't have to be proven for you to believe. I think it's good that you have such conviction. But I just wish that you would admit that your conviction ISN'T based on scientific fact!

Quote:

Even in the End Times there will be people who are visited by plagues and obvious manifestations of God's power and still they won't believe. Moses also dealt with unbelievers.

Like what? Plagues? Obvious manifestation? When did that ever happen? Ohhh, New Orleans sure was sinful - but Shinto/Buddhist China!

Quote:

Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

Well, assuming Jesus actually existed, which there is no evidence for outside of the bible(care to post any?), you're right. They would have been being blind. But I choose to see Jesus as, even if he did exist, a really wise man. I think that if he existed, his miracles were made up to make him seem more holy - which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Quote:

For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn?and I would heal them."[h] Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.
~John 12:37-41[/QB]

All done.

Edited to take out the use of the Lord's name in vain.

[ January 20, 2007 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Tra ]
January 20th, 2007, 07:32 PM
cebula_2005

Many historians agree that Jesus did exist. He also said in the Bible that He was the Son of Man and "I AM". Thus He is either God or a liar. I know that He is the Son of God.

Ok, I will say this one more time. I have already posted proof. Sunrise, sunset, likelyhood of some cosmic big bang, complexity of the world, faith, trees, nature, everything that is good in the world. That's not enough for you. Fine. I accept that. That doesn't make it any less proof. Just not the kind of proof YOU want.
January 20th, 2007, 11:23 PM
KarmaIronic

Okay...this is my evidence, and why I have not lived a day without believing in God. Religious systems have changed with time and knowledge, but never the fundamental belief that there is a God and He is good. (One of the two spiritual beliefs of mine that have never wavered - the existance of God and the law of karma)

You can take all the science in the world and argue the creation of the universe down to a single grain of dust or an atom or a molecule, or just a single cell and I will accept that. (In Genesis seven days could mean seven units of time, not actual days, btw) But where did that single cell that began the universe come from? Where did the universe come from? That's why I have always believed in God.
January 21st, 2007, 06:01 PM
stormchaser

Quote:

Originally posted by Tra:
Many historians agree that Jesus did exist. He also said in the Bible that He was the Son of Man and "I AM". Thus He is either God or a liar. I know that He is the Son of God.

Ok, I will say this one more time. I have already posted proof. Sunrise, sunset, likelyhood of some cosmic big bang, complexity of the world, faith, trees, nature, everything that is good in the world. That's not enough for you. Fine. I accept that. That doesn't make it any less proof. Just not the kind of proof YOU want.

Um ya... I'm going to assume to didn't read the first post then. That could easily have happened with no God. At least you didn't say your usual "There is plenty of proof" thing. Really, do the research. Scientifically, it could have happened. Even if it couldn't have, there's something called "The Lottery Fallacy." I think I may have posted it before.
The idea is this: the odds of winning the jackpot WAY against you. In fact, if you drive into the next town to buy a lottery ticket, you are 16 times more likely to have a car crash on the way there than to win the jackpot. But let's suppose you do. That doesn't mean the lottery was rigged. See what I mean?

As for Jesus: I also agree that he existed. I just think lots of his life, like the miraculous birth, is just a story.
I'm glad you've come off of your "there is plenty of proof" thing. I'm serious, that was making me feel like I was going to barf.

KarmaIronic, you too. Did you read my first post? You could argue that the first cell had to have come from somewhere, but then where did God come from?
It's good to see someone a little more open on here. Thanks for providing a less painful Christian to argue with.
January 21st, 2007, 10:41 PM
KarmaIronic

<< KarmaIronic, you too. Did you read my first post? You could argue that the first cell had to have come from somewhere, but then where did God come from?
It's good to see someone a little more open on here. Thanks for providing a less painful Christian to argue with. >>

Well, thank you. I do try to be open minded. I did my share of searching so I feel everyone needs to go through that. I went from Catholic to Reform to Jewish to Wiccan to Pagan to Catholic. The only beliefs that have never been changed is the belief that God exists and God is good, and the belief in Karma...what goes around, comes around. I've seen many things to back up both beliefs, but no, most of them are not scientific.

As for your question...I do see your point, but I'm not buying into it. Through out the ages new scientific theories come, are disproven or proven, and go. The belief in God has been with us since the dawn of civilization and will be with us until the end of mankind. The fact that you can go into the deepest jungle in Africa where they've never seen a book or a TV or been to church or any slight exposure to religion, and yet they believe in God says alot to me.

And, here's another thing I love about my Catholic faith: we believe in the "Mystery of Faith", meaning that not everything has a cut and dry answer. Possibly because we're not supposed to know at this place and time in our exsistance. And possibly because faith wouldn't be a test if we could point to scientific data proving there is or is not a God.

*shrug* I'm just going to follow my faith and let it help me to be the best person that I can be. And it does, so I cherish it.
January 22nd, 2007, 11:45 PM
stormchaser

Quote:

Originally posted by KarmaIronic:

As for your question...I do see your point, but I'm not buying into it. Through out the ages new scientific theories come, are disproven or proven, and go. The belief in God has been with us since the dawn of civilization and will be with us until the end of mankind. The fact that you can go into the deepest jungle in Africa where they've never seen a book or a TV or been to church or any slight exposure to religion, and yet they believe in God says alot to me.

True. However, people have a need to explain things. If they couldn't figure out where things came from, or how things work, they needed a God. That's where Genesis came from. (Yes, Tra. It is a scientific fact.) I'll add that to my first post.

Quote:

*shrug* I'm just going to follow my faith and let it help me to be the best person that I can be. And it does, so I cherish it.

Man, you have no idea how much of a relifief it is to hear that after Tra's posts...
[img]graemlins/gulp.gif[/img]
January 23rd, 2007, 10:08 PM
KarmaIronic

<< Man, you have no idea how much of a relifief it is to hear that after Tra's posts... >>

Don't knock Tra too much. I think we all have our own way of spreading the Good News. Some, like myself, are very subtle about it. Others, like Tra, are very loud about it. We're both doing the right thing, we just have different ways to attack it as we see fit being different people and denominations. [img]smile.gif[/img]