Thoughts From Me

I'd like to clear the air.

I have utmost respect for any musician in New York City, Los Angeles, and Nashville who has the courage to live without a net and play music full time. No health insurance benefits, no retirement fund, no government support what-so-ever.

For the one's that are actually successful at it and have an income that can support a home and family, well they are multi-millionaires in my mind.

I am as guilty as the next guy in here when it comes to being opinionated about certain players. Many of us sit back in our comfy homes(many of you still supported by your parents) in other parts of the world, play as a hobby or as a side job, and tear these professionals apart. The truth is we're in here talking, because we can't play half as good as any of them. Sure some folks in here have technical abilities and can maybe pull of some Colaiuta-esque fills, however I'm talking about music, groove and musicality.

I will continue to share my likes and dislikes and be honest. However, let it be known that I have worlds of respect for every player out there doing it for real. It's pretty easy to move to some other state or country, play cruise ship gigs, weddings and little recordings, and call yourself a pro. There is something to be said for that. I however am speaking of the folks who swim with the sharks.

Regardless of my musical tastes, I owe each and every one of you out there gratitude for inspiring me. Every comment of mine should be taken lightly as I am in awe of people who are out there creating full time and living a comfortable life.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 27, 2005 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Groovesmitty ]</font>

Here here.
[img]smile.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/rose.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sun.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/rainbow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]

I hear ya...

Joey Baron told my friend that if you can pay your bills as a musician, that's serious success in his book.

yeah i would agree with that quote blake...the people that do ship gigs and small recordings are held in the same regard as vinnie or any other guy in terms of a professional.

In terms of playing ability and technicality etc...thats another story

I've had many working gigs, but 1 of which was a long-standing gig of almost a decade w a touring & recordg country-style & showtunes comedy act [think Hee Haw & Green Acres on 'roids - but NOT DukesOH!!]

It was the "Zappa" of C&W music [img]wink.gif[/img] - by that i mean, there was an overall songlist of over 100 songs, contempo-crossover C&W, showtunes, blues, rock, 50s, Elvis[!], etc, none of which were exceptionally difficult, & nothing new to a working "pro," but any of which could be called at any given time during the shows, which had no set set-list, & was completely prone to improv comedy bits & interaction w the audience, & music pertaing to. [Both click & non.]

Also, the frontperson would go out into the crowd w a wireless, sometmes 100s of feet, perpetrating a bear of a delay between his vox AWA improv'd banter, & the band's music.
& often the band would have to stop on an "impromptu dime" during tunes, or segue into something else, w room for improv within the styles. & make stuff up musically within whatever style on the spot.

& petaining to the biz & traveling/touring, I learned more off the bandstand than i did on it.

& I paid my bills as a result.

Then I'd go home in my free off-road-time & indulge/binge on jazz, fusion/world-ethno, funk, RnB/soul, classical/symph-orch, & prog rock [*whew* - thank God 4 small miracles, you say?] [img]wink.gif[/img] ...Moral: Never take "other" styles of music for granted... /;-p

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 28, 2005 03:47 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>

It takes more that just great musicianship to make a decent living as a musician, much less a sideman like a drummer. It takes talent + some serious hussle. Ultimately, I chose not to do it, and I have no regrets.

Having said that, here's the funny part. In a town where accomplished jazz players work for $50-100 for a gig, the Klezmer band (think Hava Nagila) of 7 players I used to play in, books gigs at $1,000 an hour. I know an accomplished jazz guitarist who makes a ton of money playing and managing a corporate/wedding/bar mitzva/klezmer band business with a bunch of musicians that play multiple gigs. For example, he may have 3-4 gigs booked on a weekend and he may play in 1 or 2 of them.

I think my point is that in order to make a real living as a musician, you have to be willing to do what pays, even if it's not your passion.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 28, 2005 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>

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Originally posted by spaceotter:
Most days I feel like such a f*ing coward for having a day job...AGAIN.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ditto
uncensored: fuckin' coward

Well said man... Great post...

I know how hard it is and I admire my peers and other people who are making it happen. Having said that, I have just as much admiration for people who decide it's not for them... I could never do that...

MP

Very well said...couldn't agree with you more [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

It's funny how some people make certain statements about them.
Henry no offense my man, you're cool and all, but groove was paying respect to the people that DO play music for real, not those who "choose" not to do it. I'm wondering why you even mentioned your scenario as it doesn't apply here. And again, no offense man at all, I'm just curious why you said that. He's not talking about you.
That being said, I'd rather be behind my drums for a living playing a polka than sit behind a desk or do something that it is not musical. Vinnie just played on a Paul Anka CD. Do you think that's his passion? Music is his passion. Any kind. Playing is better than not playing. For those who would rather play only what they love, well they are not cut out to play professionally as sidemen. Do you really think Vinnie LOVES Faith Hills music? Come on. Yet he spent 2 years on the road with her.
Of course you have to do what pays. But to get those kind of gigs, you have to be amongst the best in your field.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 29, 2005 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]</font>

Groovesmitty, that was an awesome post. Thanks for this thread.

Anybody who can pull off doing this for a living, even in podunk backwoods, gets props and respect from me. I came from a family of performing musicians who ended up teaching and working in the frankly thankless retail music business: musical "failure"--even if it's not actually that--has hung like a pall over my family for years. When I wanted to be a pro drummer, it was all like, "do something smart like computers."

So I studied English in college, which seemed like a decent compromise...or whatever...(wanted to be a writer *and* a drummer, to be honest. Still want to.)

When I was trying to gig and make a living in Seattle in my early 20s, the money just wasn't happening with music OR writing. Perhaps I just didn't try hard enough, perhaps the scene was not there (yeah...Living Colour-esque funk rock and fusion in post-grunge Seattle...brilliant) or perhaps I just didn't have "it" whatever it is. Most likely I just didn't have enough faith in myself, lack of confidence being the perennial enemy. Whatever the case, I just couldn't deal with not paying my rent. The temp time job I picked up to pay bills turned into long-term...turned into longer and took over my life. Ironically: computers. I didn't even try, just ended up being the "computer expert" for an art gallery full of 40-somethings.

Later, in my late 20s, I went to SF to get an advanced degree in writing, and to play music. Got the degree. Played some music. And back to the computer job when the debts got too crushing.

I *do* have regrets. Many days I wish I had the faith in myself to have skated by, f*** all, I'm doing this even if I have to crash on people's couches and play Hava Nagila until I start speaking in tongues. Still wish I could find that faith, still hope somehow I can before this thing is all over. Most days I feel like such a f*ing coward for having a day job...AGAIN. And I have mad respect for those who do it every day of the year.

This fall, at 35, I'm leaving my computer job and moving back to Seattle. I've got some $$ in the bank and some time and part of me aches to drum. Maybe even go to school for music, add another luxury degree to the end of my name, lay some grooves down, try again. Or write something beautiful. It's probably no more possible there than it was in my 20s, and I'm considerably older. But it's "home" and that's a lot. Maybe there's a way.

Like Groovesmitty said: thanks to all the dummers&musicians& artists, named and unnamed, who make this magic and help keep this part of me alive. I have learned that no matter what else seems to happen, I can't do without it.

peace==otter

I think H2 was just relaying his take on it...it's all good.

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Originally posted by Groovemeister:
Well said man... Great post...
I know how hard it is and I admire my peers and other people who are making it happen. Having said that, I have just as much admiration for people who decide it's not for them... I could never do that

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ditto. That takes guts too. Almost as much as being a die-hard pro muso. [img]wink.gif[/img]

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I *do* have regrets. Many days I wish I had the faith in myself to have skated by, f*** all, I'm doing this even if I have to crash on people's couches and play Hava Nagila until I start speaking in tongues. Still wish I could find that faith, still hope somehow I can before this thing is all over. Most days I feel like such a f*ing coward for having a day job...AGAIN. And I have mad respect for those who do it every day of the year.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ot, once again, very in depth & insightful posting by you a la the HODhb "former glory days" [img]wink.gif[/img] ...

Man, don't ever feel that way. It takes guts to make a living period in this world [altho a real & humble proponent would prob just say "I'm just 'living' or doing what I'm supposed to"]...there are generally both pros & cons / ups & downsides / phat AWA very lean times in life in general, but ESP in the lives of many a pro muso. There is a certain uncertainty in music often not found in other worlds of "success," unless you have good ability coupled w voracious tenacity, insight, & ethic. But this also goes for anything, really. But the biz of music can be daunting.

Also, the music BIZ is a separte AWA one in the same entity as simply the term "music;" what i like to call the "yin & yang" or duality of "music." Like anything else, & perhaps even moreso, in order to make it as a pro muso, one has to excel reasonably well at not only music, but biz, personal, AWA social skills.

"Success" is a relative & objective term. There's nothing wrong w the route you chose...it is what it is. Doing music on the side is fine. It's not for everyone. Being a pro muso often takes "silent guts" AW. Mark your OWN terms for success...set them, & go for that. Success is in the mind of the individual, not in the outside group looking in/on. It is fr the inside, out. But i can tell by your postings that I'm just "preaching to the choir" on that one [img]wink.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by Flarobstix:
It's funny how some people make certain statements about them.
Henry no offense my man, you're cool and all, but groove was paying respect to the people that DO play music for real, not those who "choose" not to do it. I'm wondering why you even mentioned your scenario as it doesn't apply here. And again, no offense man at all, I'm just curious why you said that. He's not talking about you.
That being said, I'd rather be behind my drums for a living playing a polka than sit behind a desk or do something that it is not musical. Vinnie just played on a Paul Anka CD. Do you think that's his passion? Music is his passion. Any kind. Playing is better than not playing. For those who would rather play only what they love, well they are not cut out to play professionally as sidemen. Do you really think Vinnie LOVES Faith Hills music? Come on. Yet he spent 2 years on the road with her.
Of course you have to do what pays. But to get those kind of gigs, you have to be amongst the best in your field.

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ July 29, 2005 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]</font></font>

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, maybe I missed the point. I was just pointing out the irony that someone who doesn't play for his livelihood can land a gig, playing the ultimate in corny music, that pays 2-3 times as much as what full time, accomplished musicians are playing for.

Lighten up, Flarobstix. What H2 said is exactly what this thread is about. You either do it, or you don't. It's no shame if you don't play drums for a living. You just look forward more to the ten gigs a year you do play. Just because you don't support yourself drumming doesn't mean you can't play. Meaning play with aplomb and skill and fire.

Making a living at music is a hard road to walk, and not for everyone. Tony and Elvin even gave lessons when they were with Miles and Trane, albeit that is still making money through music. If you have a family to support and are scuffling for gigs then it's prudent to get a day job. The baby needs formula, y'know.

If you're young and unmarried and you're content crashing on people's couches and living on one Happy Meal a day but getting to play then that's a noble thing. Those who are a slave to their art often succeed. I admire, and identify, with the suffering artist, spaceotter.

Neil Peart once said it was never important to him to have to say he made a living playing drums. "I only wanted to play the kind of music I liked." Me too, Neil.

Well put groovesmitty......
to paraphrase a quote that's been floating around for some time:

'a bad day at the kit is always better than a good day at the office'

I have always had the utmost respect for anyone who has been able to make a living from music, or any art form for that matter.
[img]cool.gif[/img]

Yes I understand however, I believe this thread is to pay respect to those who swim with the sharks as groove said, and those who DO do it full time, without a net(to paraphrase groove). Not for people to state their personal situations. If you so called chose not to, fine. How's someone's choice not to do it releated to this thread? It's not.
Irrelevant.

On a another note, I have a hard time beleiving anyone capable of working playing music full time would choose not to do it. Unless of course they weren't musicians with the fire we all have.
I think anyone in this forum would give anything to play music full time if it was possible. That's why I too have immense respect for these drummers. Making 6 figures a year playing drums is an amazing feat. Most of the guys we speak of in here make that kind of money and work very hard for it.

Cheers to the great pros!!

I think Groovsmitty was making several points. He expressed reverence for drummers who have chosen to make a full time career from drumming, and he expressed some indignance and maybe some regret about drummers and others, who don't make that committment and sacrifice, criticizing the art of drummers who do.

I think I understand how he feels. Yet, I don't think there's anything wrong with fans criticizing artists. Let's face it, we are a pretty hypercritical bunch when it comes to our tastes and opinions about drumming and music. I've learned a lot from the criticisms of some on this forum, even criticisms that were fiercely attacked by other members.

My comments were meant to point out that there are plenty of drummers (mediocre to artistic) who make a pretty good living playing the kind of gigs that don't even rise to a level worthy of critisism. And I have personal experience with those kinds of gigs (he said with a hint of . . . embarrassment). LOL.

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Originally posted by Flarobstix:
On a another note, I have a hard time beleiving anyone capable of working playing music full time would choose not to do it.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Believe it. To some of us, playing music that doesn't move us or that we don't enjoy is akin to working in a factory. I have better ways to spend my time than to play music that I don't enjoy. For me, personally, it got to the point that I had played one too many gigs that rubbed me the wrong way and I started to hate the drums as a result. Not good.

I'm in a better place now, earning dough in a different career that affords me the luxury of picking and choosing the music/musicians I want to be involved with.

I guess for me, it wasn't "play drums at any cost", but I would GLADLY live on the poverty line if I were playing great music. Sadly though, it seems as though the world isn't interested in the kind of music I love.
[img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]

DSOP- Well said.

My man groovesmitty! Yet another great post!

Please don't take this wrong. I believe its a valid question.

I just read DSOPs post.
You said that you would live on the poverty line if you could play good music. Then why don't you? What kind of music is this that the world doesn't love? Surely not jazz as there 100s of creative jazz musicians(i.e joey baron, bill stewart) making well above the poverty line. Not fusion, as Gary Novack and others are doing great. And please I'm knocking anyone, I'm trying to understand the meaning of the previous post.

Second, there's no such thing as a great drummer who has beautiful feeling time, consistancy, a somewhat creative musical approach, reading skills, and a good attitude who doesn't have a large amount of work. To me, you can talk all the talk you want, but if you have all the right tools you can do it. If you don't you can't. I always tolda myself this: You're only as good as the musicians you play with. There's a reason why the next level of musicians aren't calling me. I worked on those. I believe if someone's stuck playing bad music all the time, well, they're not ready.
If you have the tools above and you move to a major music city like LA you'll be amongst the best players in 3years or less. If you think you have the tools(like i did) and you're still not hooking up the gigs, well, you're not as good as you think. I know that sounds harsh, but who said music was easy?

Sometimes I read these posts and people's egos are just huge. Just admit you can't hack it. It's not a bad thing. I agree with Rob. If people could do it just like the drummers they are fans of, they would. Sideman work in Pro music is for the select few who have enough talent and willpower. Saying you tried it and then blaming the other musicians or the music, is kind of wierd.

Also, for FiveEight. Man, I hear that. However, I believe statements like that are a cop out. If you're a real artist, you play all the time any style anywhere to survive. There are 2 sides to the starving artist. What they create for money and what they create for themselves. After a few years of this if the artist is great, these two merge.
It's much more creative and difficult to be artistic within bounderies, especially bounderies you hate. If you can be creative within these walls, imagine what you could do when you break out. Many great musicians think of that scenario as a test. If you can sound great in that situation then you're in pretty good shape. People who blame society for them not doing something is complete rubbish. You can do it.
Mozart did it up until he died.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 31, 2005 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Paraflam ]</font>

Wow

I must admit I thoroughly enjoy the reactions to my posts.
Thank you for understanding me.

Remember I am talking about sidemen drummers. Not a Niel Peart, or someone who was at the right place at the right time.
I'm speaking about real musicians. Not artists. Yes many of them are also artists or have artistic drumming skills. People that cover ground who can turn sheet music into real music etc.etc.etc..

This is not for everyone. I'm grateful to those who give me something to enjoy every few months when I go to Tower to buy some CDs.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 31, 2005 11:26 PM: Message edited by: Groovesmitty ]</font>

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Originally posted by Paraflam:
You said that you would live on the poverty line if you could play good music. Then why don't you? What kind of music is this that the world doesn't love? Surely not jazz as there 100s of creative jazz musicians(i.e joey baron, bill stewart) making well above the poverty line.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, first of all, I am no Bill Stewart...

Why don't I do it? Well, I tried for a time, and was unable to find or assemble the right situation. I came close a few times, but keeping several people focused on the same goal is difficult. While doing this I had to survive, so I played with showbands, played weddings, lots of different sessions etc., but I wasn't enjoying it.

Sure, I could have kept trying, but for various reasons that I won't go into here, I decided I would do it a different way, and I have no regrets. With the advent of the Internet and the ease of digital recording and cost of pressing your own CDs, it's a very different world now, with much more possibilties.

I'm very excited about music again, and who knows, it could be my main source of scratch one day soon.

Hey man, thanks for the honest answer. It makes sense when you're dealing with your own band.
I'm glad you didn't misunderstand my viewpoint. It's like not as if I'm out there doing it either. Glad theres a new fire burning.

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Originally posted by Paraflam:
I'm glad you didn't misunderstand my viewpoint.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not at all. Your points are totally valid.

Hey, I see that you're in Los Angeles too. If you're free tomorrow night, I'm playing at the Kibitz Room at Canter's Deli on Fairfax from 9 to 10:30. It's a trio and we play and jam over old fusion tunes. I'll buy you a beer.