Student Teachers - ACCIDENTLY DELETED THREAD

I am an early childhood education major and I am student teaching in a kindergarten class at a private school.
I get so mad when I hear people complaining about being teachers and not getting enough pay, or whatever. Actually i get mad when people complain about any job they have. Be glad you have a job, and be glad you are physically capable of finding another. Be glad we live in a country where you are not told from childhood what you have to do with your life.
For example::
My cousin is a teacher and that's all she ever talks about. I finally just told her, "Look, if it is so bad, then why don't you go back to school and get a different degree?"
I think if she's going to teach, she should teach because she loves it and wants to make a difference in the lives of children. If it's not the kind of pay she wants, the she has a decision to make- does she want to stay in it because she loves it, even though she won't make enough money, OR does she want to get out of it and do something she might not love that will make her more money?
I always just think she should have realized the money issue BEFORE she chose that as her career. I mean she could have found out what the average salary of a teacher is, and then thought, 'Hmmm, I want to be a teacher, but will I be able to live happily on this pay? No? Then I better not be a teacher!'
It just bugs me when she complains about the system- it's like, either try to change the system or just find another profession- just stop complaining!
Nobody forced her into being a teacher. She chose it on her own, so she should either do something to fix it or do something esle, but don't keep complaining about it.
I wonder if she puts as much time into her lesson plans and the actual kids as she puts time into telling everyone how hard it is.
I'm sorry but it just bugs me so much when people complain about teacher's not getting enough pay.
In my opinion it is fine if it pays poorly. I am prepared for that. I accept that. I am sacrificing the chance to live more comfortably because teaching is what I feel passionate about and what I have been led to, and I am afraid if it pays a lot you are going to start getting people who want to teach for money, instead of it being their true calling. That already has happened, and if the pay is raised I fear what that would mean for children's education.

<font color="#051E50" size="1">[ March 24, 2005 01:05 PM: Message edited by: StarTrekCaptain ]</font>

Star Trek Captain,

I appreciate what you're saying here as far as your cousin should have known going in etc. I think it also happens that we change our minds about our career choices midstream or down the road, or sometimes the changes get made for us due to downsizing, etc. But, I still think we should pay our teachers more. Notice I said, our teachers, not necessarily the administration. I don't worry that we'll get people only in it for the money, I think it is more important that we show respect for our teachers, and in this society, respect sometimes equals dollars.

I found it very interesting that when I was in college I had a history professor tell me that if you looked around at the male teachers they were all of a certain age. He flat out said he became a teacher to avoid being drafted into the Vietnam war as were many of the male teachers who were his same age. He said he ended up being quite happy with his decision, when I knew him he had already been teaching for 20 years. But he stayed in college to avoid the draft. I also had an excellent high school male teacher who had already retired from the Navy and teaching was now his 2nd career. I always wonder about him and hope he achieved his dreams. While in the Navy he had married a woman from one of the Polynesian islands, and it was his dream to take both his Navy pension and teaching pensions and they would sail their boat back to that Polynesian island to retire. I really hope he made it, he was a great teacher.

Laurie

I don't mean to be rude, but I guess I am being rude, I don't know...but it sounds almost as if you admire this man, someone who got into an important career only in order to avoid doing their duty to their country? Talk about wrong reasons to become a teacher, as well as not giving back to your country.
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<font color="#051E50" size="1">[ March 24, 2005 01:38 PM: Message edited by: StarTrekCaptain ]</font>

Because sometimes we don't always get to "choose our own opportunities". He might not have looked at teaching as his own career choice, but due to societal pressures at the time, it seemed a viable option for him. As I said he was quite happy with his decisions in the long term. It was also interesting that the history class I took from him was on the Vietnam war, and he was really an excellent lecturer.

I can also attest to the "personal opportunities" issue myself. As you may know, my daughter is adopted from Russia. Was that my first choice? Sorry to say, but no. It was only after we exhausted all other biological means that we turned to adoption. Of course now, I only shake my head and wonder why? I would not give up the opportunity to have adopted her up for anything in the world, she IS my world. It is the same for DH. So, something outside of our control brought us to adoption, but just like that teacher of mine, I don't regret my decisions at all, and now feel that it was God making those decisions for us. Why didn't I come to it sooner? I've always wondered that too, but my only answer is because Diana was not yet born and waiting for us.

I don't think it negates my teacher's decision or our adoption decision either. I'm at peace with it all.

I don't think I really understand what you're syaing. I mean, he had a choice. Do his duty to his country when his country called upon him, or back out and ifnd a way to get out of it. He made a decision, it was his choice. He didn't have to do what he did.

But as for adoption, I don't really understand how adoption has to do with that? Can you explain it again or something.. I don't mean to sound slow but I'm not being able to make a connection here LOL
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Not to take this thing OT, but I didn't know your daughter was adopted from Russia. What a wonderful thing you and your DH did. I'm sure she is absolutely the most wonderful thing in your life. Sometimes life takes us where we never expected we would be, and we're better for it in the end.

Sorry StarTrek, but I'm not going to explain any further, the two highest ranking men in the current US government also did not serve their time in Vietnam either, and I don't want to turn this into a war/military service issue. This is not the place for it, even if it is OT. Vietnam and the 60's were an entirely different world than the one we live in now.

I think Amy just said it best that sometimes life takes us to other places that we never though we'd be.

And Amy, thanks for your kind compliment, really it wasn't that we did such a great thing though. It is God's gift to us that he gave Diana to us to be our daughter, we couldn't be any happier or luckier.

Laurie

You never really know where life will take you. Laurie, I hear you on that!!

Thanks for responding to this thread after I deleted it! Hopefully, when the two student teachers who are having doubts about their futures come back online, they can explain the thread further.

I have been at school all day and as the person who ogrinally started this post I would just like to say that I love kids and I love my subject area. My lack of motivation stems from the fact that I am $41,000 in the hole with student loans, I have no CC debt. And as a starting teaching in the state of Colorado I will make only $30,000 which is not enough to buy a home. It isn't even enough to rent a small house and pay off your loans at the same time because living expenses are so high. I am unmotivated because I am worried that I will be unable to pay the rent on a place to live, while still maintaining a vehical and paying off my loans. I don't expect to get rich teaching and I don't expect to live an extravigent life style, I just want to be able to pay the bills and enjoy life a little. We are all scared that we will never be able to own our home or buy a new car, we are worried about the basics not luxary cars or big screen tvs.

I lack of motivation all stems from the fact what you as parents see is not what is really going on. The public face of a school and the reality are too very differnt things. Go ask a teacher what the conversation at lunch was today and I bet that it wasn't what you thought it would be. Today my lunch conversation concerned job interviews and who was looking for what position elsewhere and for what reason. I am serious. You should see the paper work I have to do each week.

Today I had to deal with the network being down which meant I had to change all my plans at the last minute. We are in the middle of the state assessment tests so I don't even have all my student at one time because a quarter of them are off taking the tests, and I still have another week of testing to go.

Ashley

Something I forgot. Abby and I both would like to start families but we know that if we marry fellow teachers we will NOT have the option to stay home with our children because a single teaching salary will not cover that choice.

And don't even get my started about NCLB. All I will say is "We use to just be shooting ourselves in the foot, now we are aiming at the heart."
100% profiency . . . LOL, LOL, LOL. Are you crazy name one thing that is 100% perfect.

Ashley

I erased my orginal message because I do not want to get in a heated argument about this because there are too many details.

Ashley

<font color="#051E50" size="1">[ March 24, 2005 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Ds9jullian ]</font>

I am going to re-state a little bit of my deleted post, and I also want to say that it is not my aim to confront the beliefs of anyone, merely to state my own, so please don't take anything I say in a negative way. It's just my opinion and I have no desire to offend anyone.

I'm the other Kansas student teacher. My emphasis is instrumental music. I am currently student teaching 6-12th grade band. Music is, for all of you that aren't aware, an academic subject and is recognized as such by most boards, agencies, and organizations. It is not, however, a "core subject" worthy of state assessments and scrutiny by NCLB. Ashley is correct in saying that I, as a music teacher, have been labeled as "support staff" rather than faculty, along with drama, speech, art, home ec, p.e., and anything else that is not currently being tested by NCLB.

Regarding NCLB itself, I feel that it is a noble idea, a valiant effort. I also don't think it will work. I find the idea of testing every diverse type of child out there with one and only one method, the standardized assessment, to be unreasonable and the goals unrealistic. I simply do not think it is wise to set the students and teachers of the country up for failure, which is a mathematical certainty as we approach the 100% goal of 2013.

However, that isn't what this thread was originally about.

I am the one with the boyfriend who is also a teacher. I am the one who is concerned about not having the opprotunity to be a SAHM if I choose. I also love teaching and of course I knew in advance that I wouldn't be making a lot of money. In the situation I am now in, with current master teachers all around me telling me to "get out while I still can," I am more concerned about society than anything else. I think that in general, regarding education, that the priorities of society are a little (a lot?) screwed up at the moment. I am saddened, but resigned to the fact that there is nothing I can do to change this.

I don't feel that "unmotivated" is how I would describe myself in this situation. I am very motivated. I enjoy what I do. As I've said, I love teaching, and specifically I love teaching kids music. The teaching part is not what I am worried about. My fears are more about the fact that all these teachers are looking for a way out, not because they don't enjoy teaching, but because they cannot afford to do it and support their families. I don't really have a "back up" career choice. Teaching music is what I do and love. So I'm going to continue. I'll find my job for next year, hopefully, and stick with teaching for three years. By then I will be able to make an educated decision about whether I want to continue or whether I need to find a field that will enable me to raise my future children.

Thank you again for your support.

~Abby

I missed the deleted thread and I'm not sure I'm following everyone's positions in this one, either. But I'd like to share my thoughts about teachers with you.

I think teachers should get paid $100,000 a year or more for the work they do teaching our future generations to read, write, do arithmetic, pay attention in class, mind their manners, follow the rules, be kind etc., etc. The list goes on and on. You couldn't pay me enough money to do the kind of work they do day in and day out.

Teaching is not for everyone. Public school teachers in Hawaii are paid according to what has been budgeted by our legislature. And the average teacher salaries here are abysmal. So the problem needs to be corrected at the legislative level by budgeting more so we can retain and attract new teachers.

With that said, however, anyone who is unable to live within the established salary levels obviously needs to look for another occupation. That's the reality of it. Its going to take time and efforts of our communities and lawmakers to raise teacher salaries.

We all make tough decisions about the kind of livelihoods we would be happiest in. I personally know a CEO of a major company here in Hawaii who recently quit his high paying job and went back to teaching. It was his calling. Whoever says you can't get rich as a teacher needs to look up other definitions of rich in the dictionary.

Quote:

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Originally posted by StarTrekCaptain:
Well Ds9jullian you got yourself started on NCLB because I fully support it. We deal with that issue a lot in Prof. Dev. courses for teaching and I cannot say enough good things about it. I don't know about other states but here in Ohio I think it is good. I mean even if you don't think it's working, there's nothing wrong with having standards and having goals.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I teach in Ohio, and I can say that NCLB (aka No Child Left Untested) is NOT good. The idea behind it, excellent; the implimentation, hideous. There is no money to do what truly needs to happen to insure no child is left without a chance at a quality education.

There is nothing wrong with *having* standards. Allowing people who have never taught impose them is wrong. You will feel differently about NCLB and standards when much of your quality classroom time with your students is taken away by planning for those standards and a test for which you have no passing score, much the confusion and frustration of you and your students. You won't like having your professional development time eaten by power standards and indicators when you could be learning something useful for your classroom. When you are out of the classroom as student and in full-time, on your own, as a teacher, all the indoctrinization the Ohio Department of Education bestows on teacher candidates goes right out the window.

I've threatened to have a t-shirt made: "I'm a good teacher, and I oppose No Child Left Behind." NCLB-- fix it, fund it!!!

All that said... I don't want to sound negative about teaching. If it wasn't for the "power standards" and all that whoha (which I just wasted an in-service day on yesterday), I wouldn't have a complaint.

Am I rich? By no stretch of the imagination, but I am easily able to provide for my four dogs, cat and myself. I teach in one of the poorest districts in the state. I rent a small home in the country, have a nicer used van, support my AG habit well and participate actively in dog agility (not a cheap hobby) with my dogs. I budget carefully; that's key.

Whether or not you will be able to stay at home with your children if married to another teacher really depends. I know plenty of two-teacher couples, some who have one parent at home and some who both teach. They also budget carefully. The beauty of teaching is that you can stay home with your kids until they start school, and then, in most cases, your work schedule is the same as theirs. Honestly, there are many people who make less than teachers do, and they are able to support their families. And think about people who don't work at all... and have kids...

Anyway... no one enters the education profession to make the big bucks. The other rewards are plentiful, and as someone else said earlier, I cannot imagine doing anything else. There are frustrations, I am frequently sleep-deprived and I can't wait until summer, but I'm happy. There are "light bulb moments," when you see the light of recognition in the eyes of a chlid. You know you've reached them and taught them something. You'll be the teacher the teenage girl comes to to cry when her loser boyfriend lies to her and breaks her heart. You'll hear the words, "Miss Gates, I did it. Because of what you taught us last semester, I *know* I passed the writing questions on the OGT!" (Ohio Graduation Test)

Girls, it WILL be worth it. Despite the poop, it's the kids in the long run, even the ones who you think you'll pull your hair out over and the ones you can't help. They're worth it.

Please hang in there; the kids needs you and your future colleagues need you!
Heather
(Sophomore Language Arts and Yearbook)

Heather, can Diana come down and be your student one day? Please?

Laurie

Thank you for your post, Heather! Teachers like you make all the difference in the world.

I am really so sorry! When I was replying to the post about the unmotivated student teachers who were unsure if teaching would pay enough to support a decent lifestyle, I accidently double posted. When I went to delete the double post, I accidently deleted the whole thread. I feel bad about this because people really took a lot of time to voice their opinions on this. Please feel free to start the thread again.

<font color="#051E50" size="1">[ March 24, 2005 12:34 PM: Message edited by: judiaci ]</font>

I just wanted to add here that I fully support you as a student teacher. I'm sorry that our society doesn't respect our teachers enough, as in pay scale, etc. I think it is a very noble position and since my daughter will be attending school this fall, it's nice to know that you are out there trying so hard to stay motivated. Keep your chin up, please, our kids DO need good teachers.

Diana's first preschool teacher last year, Mrs McKay, will always be remembered so fondly by all of us here, she set a very high mark for other teachers to meet up to.

With all that said, though, if you find that teaching is not really for you, then I hope you are able to take a new direction and find what truly makes you happy, and also allows you to earn a proper living. All the best and good luck to you!

Laurie

I think in your thread you said you were student teaching at the high school level? If that is true it must be hard. I have to teen sons that have been taught to always be respectful to adults and their teachers in particular, sometimes what they tell me that other students in their classes in high school say to their teachers amazes me.

Our society does need good teachers, and I too think it is one of the most noble professions there is. I hope things get better for you.

Good Luck in whichever direction you go.

Three cheers for all teachers (and a big [img]graemlins/thumbs_down.gif[/img] to NCLB).

If I could pick any profession in the whole world I would choose to be a teacher. However, I'm not going to be one (and made the decision not to be one back when I was still in high school) when I realised I could not make enough money to do all that I want to do in life (travel, mostly, and to write, etc). I've since found that my interests lie elsewhere so it was a good decision for me. But it's sad that it's such a difficult situation for so many who want to be teachers but don't think they could be.

My mom is a teacher and I admire teachers more than anyone else. I admire teachers on so many different levels: for your dedication to your profession, your dedication to your students, for doing what you love, and yes, for putting up with the nightmare that is NCLB. I don't want to get into a huge discussion about NCLB because I think others on here have covered it quite throughly, and because I can only share my opinions as the daughter of a teacher. I just know about NCLB from my long discussions with my mother about it. She's told me about the hours of paperwork, hours of testing children which takes up valuable learning and class time. One thing that NCLB doesn't take into account is how students home lives are. Students come to school sick, unfed, improperly clothed, with unstable home lives. How are they supposed to learn at the levels they are supposed to? A teacher can't feed, clothe, nurse, etc. classes of 20+ students, many of whom who are neglected by their parents. My mother, who was a long-term substitute for a 6th grade social studies class and was one of the best teachers in the grade during that time (she had so many parent compliments and some even said their kids weren't looking forward to the regular teacher coming back) can't actually teach 6th grade ss because she isn't "certified" in that area - she is only certified in K-5 or 6-8 science. Of course, they didn't have the same certification programs when she was back in college that they do now, so the new regulations essentially discriminate teachers who above a certain age, forcing them to either spend thousands of dollars to go back to school and get certified or to only teach in the narrow area that they were once certified in.

I won't go into details, but if I am ever elected to congress or senate or as president (hah) I promise all teachers that I will do everything in my power to change NCLB to make it more teacher-friendly. [img]wink.gif[/img] Oh - and it might be nice if the creators of NCLB actually consulted real teachers (not "educational experts" or a certain spouse that had once been a librarian, which is not exactly a teacher) from different parts of the country and from school districts representing a variety of demographics before drafting the legislation. [img]graemlins/thumbs_down.gif[/img]

P.S. Heather, I wish you had been my sophomore English teacher! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

To be honest, I know very little about American education. But I have taught mathematics in the public school as a special guest for several friends. I will tell you that I think it is a very hard job. Not that it isn't rewarding but you could not pay me enough money to stand in front of a room full of kids and try to teach them things that they are not interested in learning at that moment. We don't pay teachers enough. Regardless if it is their calling or not, they deserve more pay. I believe I was meant to be a statistician. I don't think they should reduce my pay because I enjoy what I am doing. Should teachers make less than a middle class salary because they enjoy what they do. As far as the Viet Nam war is concerned, I think that is a time and place that you really can't fully appreciate unless you were involved. Enough said there. I don't want to rehash a very bitter debate on a highly emotionally charged subject.

Yes, thank you Heather. It really helps to hear from you teachers that are out there making it work.

About the lightbulb moments. I already have seen a couple, and they are wonderful!

~Abby

Just a couple of thoughts on the subject:

If you want to consider being a SAHM, perhaps your fiances should be the ones that get out of teaching. If you get out of teaching but your DHs are still teachers, it will be even harder to quit because you will be the primary wage earner.

In Colorado because of their state tax laws where referendums are required for tax increases, it is unlikely that teacher salaries will ever be very good. On the other hand, your property taxes will be much more affordable than in other states. I live in Wisconsin and we considered a move to CO last year. Our schools are funded by our property taxes. My property taxes are $6000 per year. A comparable house in CO pays about $2500. We have outrageous property taxes here in WI but we are considered a liberal, pro-education state with higher than average public teacher salaries compared to the cost of living. Two teacher households here are not uncommon and live comfortable lives.

A few teachers that I know tutor part time for extra cash. They make a lot of extra cash that way to pay for fabulous vacations, etc.

Another note - not many people just getting out of college can afford a house. I wasn't able to buy a house until I was 29. We had to scrimp and save. I was a business major which supposedly would have landed me a higher paying job than a teacher. Well, the first several years were low paying and then I had kids. Luckily, my husband and I decided to start our own business and it is fairly successful so now I can work from my home part time. The early days were hard, but they were also a lot of fun. All our friends were pretty broke, also.

There are many, many ways to budget and the beginning years right out of college are not a picnic financially for many professionals. The key is to pay off debt and not get into credit card debt. You might want to consider talking to a financial planner and see what his/her thoughts are about the salaries, etc. and how your finances are likely to pan out. A lot of doctors and attorneys have huge student loan debts. There are always trade-offs. My oldest son is a college freshman majoring in journalism who has the same dilema because journalism is not well paid. I encouraged him to follow his dreams and try to become a journalist. Almost anyone can go into business or some other field if they have a teaching or journalism degree. Most people change the direction of their careers several times.

Also, consider what your alternatives are at this point. We work with a lot of small businesses and professionals. Some great paying jobs with flexible, family friendly hours are chiropractors, pharmacists and orthodontists. I can't think of any really good paying jobs that have to do with music. Just some thoughts! I wish you the best of luck with your decision.

PS - Don't get discouraged by the disgruntled teachers who are applying for other jobs. They may be burned out or just plain negative people. I think the district and particular school you work at can really make a difference. Many workplaces have a negative vibe, also. It is not limited to teaching. If you love teaching, your positive energy should guide you and hopefully rub off on your associates.

<font color="#051E50" size="1">[ March 25, 2005 03:50 PM: Message edited by: judiaci ]</font>

Just something to think about. . . . a single mother on a teacher's salary qualifies welfare.

Ashley

Ashley, is that true? That seems almost absurd. But I remember one Christmas we were doing baskets and donations for a family. It was a single mother with 3 kids and it listed her occupation as teacher.

I teach in one of Ohio's poorest districts, and at the starting level teacher salary (lowest possible), a parent would have to have five children to qualify for the lowest levels of public assistance.

The family we sent Christmas presents and food basket listed occupation as teacher. But that may mean a number of different teaching positions. It may not have referred to a school teacher. But maybe some other kind of teacher. But it seemed odd to me but if they were needing assistance, they must have had hard times. I think it would be shameful for a school teacher needing to be on welfare.