or was there more action happening when SG were on that infamous "hiatus" [img]graemlins/devil.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img]
Kat
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or was there more action happening when SG were on that infamous "hiatus" [img]graemlins/devil.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img]
Kat
*sighs* Nah Kat, it's not just you..... [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img]
I'm just glad that I've left most of this/him behind now cos it doesn't bother me anymore but if this had happened a couple of years ago..... [img]graemlins/thumbs_down.gif[/img]
LOL true Terry, It wouldnt normally bother me but I have been bored and looking for good chat and none to be found.. no scandal no news no nothing!!!
Seems its all but a graveyard DH wise!!
Kat
The similarities between him and George Michael are becoming closer aren't they? Did you read DebSG's thread on the AntiSG bbs about GM retiring from music biz b/c his music isn't taken seriously these days and that all the boppers etc. want is pop pap? Also, I gather from reading an earlier interview with GM that Sony's promotion of him has been less than enthusiastic (ring any bells?) and that also has something to do with his decision.
Makes you wonder doesn't it?
Personally, and I stress the word <u>personally</u>, I reckon DH is also on the brink of jacking it all in....
Yeah I did read that thread. Its a sad day really that he feels that way. Its pretty much true though. Thats all the record companies spend anytime promoting is that teenage pap.
It already kind of feels like DH has pulled away from the mainstream music promotion. He has taken up doing all the Gay Pride and Mardi Gras and more club scene type stuff.
I reckon sony is gonna drop him and if not officially just by doing nothing for him at all. I think DH will have to just do promo appearances and club gigs for awhile now if he wants to do musical stuff.
Its a damm shame and a waste for both GM and DH!
Kat
Yep, it is a shame and a waste, especially when there's so much fucking crap out there getting the recognition that it truly doesn't deserve! [img]graemlins/thumbs_down.gif[/img]
God yeah!! He needs to go screw some famous girl/guy to get into the spotlight. It seems thats the only way they sell albums.
Kat
Perhaps he and GM should get it on with each other! [img]graemlins/devil.gif[/img] It might do both of them a favour?! [img]wink.gif[/img] LMAO
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LMFAO I had that thought as well. Bloody brilliant idea!Quote:
Originally posted by Twizzle:
Perhaps he and GM should get it on with each other! [img]graemlins/devil.gif[/img] It might do both of them a favour?! [img]wink.gif[/img] LMAO
Kat
Well......... personally, I think getting dropped and doing club appearances wouldn't be a bad thing. I was just thinking about this the other day when I read that thread on the bbs about his journal and where someone said that he'd post when he had something to say. That brought to mind what I heard about the recent US show (that fundraiser) where he supposedly commented about being fat because he's on a break. My point is this........
First off, let me admit that it's easy to tell someone else what they should be doing and not so easy to do it yourself. I fully understand that what I'm about to say isn't entirely fair.
BUT how on earth is it possible NOT to have anything to say if you're Darren Hayes????? When I think of what he could do with that online zine or even a printed one. And I don't mean more pictures of his damned dog or more fan art/poems. Wishes. Thoughts. Bits of writing. Song ideas that never came to full bloom. His drawings and doodles. What does he think of the US election results or even of Charles' coming marriage. Before the tour, he could have shared plans and hopes for the tour. Now that it's over, he could share expriences and thoughts. How can anyone have nothing to say????
As for now, there's an entire internet that he could use to get his music out. Or get his ass on the road with a band to sing in clubs and venues. And Sony isn't the only label in town. Not for Darren and not for George Michael. If they don't like how Sony does things, then ask to be released and move to another label. Maybe even a smaller one..... yeah, you stand to make less money. But I think you also get more control over the art of making music. There are a ton of independent radio stations in the US that he could visit. These are smaller stations that don't get the "big" stars, so I would think it's possible.
Sorry, I guess that I ranted just now and I veered off topic. LOL It's just that this has been building in me for a while ....... there are so many untried things that Darren could do musically and with his fans. I run a website where I see artists who have long and (to them) successful careers without ever once signing to a major label or having a traditional "single" hit, so I often find myself wondering why it is that people focus on only the major labels and major media outlets when there are a million other ways to work around those things.
Dyan, I agree totally with what you're saying. Absolutely 100%!
[wonders]maybe he just doesn't care enough anymore about his music or his fans?[/wonders] I'm not saying that to diss him but I do get the distinct impression that he doesn't really give a tiny rat's arse anymore, certainly about his online community/fanbase, f/c based or otherwise. As you say, he could do so MUCH more and the possibilities of using the internet are there for the taking.
Dyan, maybe, just maybe he is reluctant to say too much to the fans these days cos people automatically jump on his every word and hold him to it, whatever it is. I reckon he's sick and tired of telling people what he hopes his plans might be only to have them radically altered by powers beyond his control. If he shares too many of his thoughts about things, the fanclub is automatically inundated with hundreds of emails from people wanting verification on everything he says! I don't actually blame him for taking a few steps back these days.
I definitely agree with you about dropping out of the Sony label and using a more independent company to promote his music. That maybe easier said than done though because his contract with Sony might prevent him from doing so until he's fulfilled his contract with them. I don't know what that is but I would guess it's a 6 album deal so he's probably got 2 left to deliver with them. If he tries to cut his ties with Sony before then, the financial and legal implications for him could be so huge that it might personally ruin him.
Janie xx
Janie, you may very well be right on target when it comes to why Darren doesn't do the many, many things he could be doing. As I said in another thread, I've stopped trying to understand him. *whispers* It's not fair and it's due to my experience, but too many times my gut says what Terry is saying .......... I don't think he gives a rat's a$$ at times. BUT maybe even that's understandable considering his experiences, and I'm not sure that I wouldn't feel the same in his shoes. My only point is that I can't understand that I don't have the information to understand, and all I can go on is my personal experience and what I see and know.
So the most compassionate thing that I can give him right now is the understanding that I don't have a clue what the reasons are. I only think that it's a damned shame (whatever those reasons are) because Darren is special and he has a lot to give.
As for the Sony contract, here again ........ I haven't enough information to have a clue. However, I have seen artists leave labels and the parting doesn't always have to be expensive and messy. My feeling is that it's harder to do if you're a "big" artist and thus a huge moneymaker for the label. As for Darren? It's entirely possible that there are things going on and discussions happening that we haven't a clue about.
I do wonder what the future holds, but one thought has always stuck in my mind during the whole TTATS promo thing - and that is that originally this album was meant to be a side project. So, I've always wondered how he and Rob would have marketed the album independently - if he thought that Sony would drop him, then he must have had contingency plans in place, surely? Or maybe, once they looked into the idea, they realised that it wouldn't be feasible to do it alone, especially as Sony were allegedly so enthusiastic (note the word ALLEGEDLY - I think their support has been underwhelming in the extreme).
I think I spent a lot of time discussing the whys and hows with friends, but in the end it's like banging your head against a brick wall, because, as Terry so rightly said, there is so much crap out there and Darren is far better than all of that and yet is failing. To be honest, I think he's doomed as far as Sony are concerned. I know there's been the discussion about his journal on the Sony board, and to be honest, I wonder what he would have to say... I mean, he could be all happy and jolly and pretend everything is hunky-dory, but I think the last few years taught him that 1) Many fans can see through him when he's faking and 2) They don't take kindly to bullshitting, and would prefter honesty...but unfortunately 3) There are also a section of the fanbase that would rather bury their heads in the sand and pretend all is happy and joyful...how can you reconcile both of these things and keep everyone happy! I guess he tried that and didn't like it. He felt like a fake.
I would love more discussions too, Kat, about anything...just because I do love coming on-line and chatting with people. It's the only time I get to have interesting discussions usually, as the rest of the time like anyone else, I'm too busy running the rest of mine and the kids' lives!
I agree Dyan. I dont think its a bad tactic to go the club route and dance type gigs. NOt everyone has to sell out 50,000 seat concerts to be a success.
I was more thinking its a shame for him and GM if they both feel that they given everything and it wasnt good enough anymore esp to Sony. I think he should get out from Sony and hopefully he will. UNless as you say there are things happening we dont know about. Maybe sony are supporting him maybe he feels at ease with his relationship with them. They may of allowed TTATS through even though it wasnt what they personally wanted.
I agree that he must have heaps to say. He must have thoughts on doing these club gigs. On how TTATS is going. On the world and love and life and everythng else. I think as Sharon said it may be hard to reconcile. I mean when posting on a fan orientiated journal the perception is that should be a happy little postive story. What if hes feeling pissed off about TTATS. What if he doesnt want to fake that things could get better type speech and all is well. I for one dont care if he spoke and it was deemed completly negative. But I guess many fans dont want a journall entry that says no more touring and Im jack of this industry.
I also agree with Terry he got a bit of a dont give a rats ass about it all now. At first its fun and inspiring and great to know what fans think. After years of it you lose interest and develop other interests and step back from what fans think.
Kat
I think possibly one reason why Sony won't support him over TTATS is because when Darren wrote and produced the thing, by the time Sony knew of it, it was a fait accompli! Darren didn't want Sony's input on it on any level as he deemed it his personal creation and his alone.
I suppose once Sony heard it they obviously thought it had merit and based on Darren's past record sales decided to put it out for release, but that is where I think their support for TTATS begins and ends. I can well understand Darren not wanting Sony's interference on this but how wise a decision this was on a business level remains to be seen.
I know Darren said at the LP's he didn't care whether it sold heaps as long as it sold enough for him to continue making the music he likes. He also said he didn't care whether people hated it - there was definitely a I don't give a rat's arse attitude about him about it all that day [img]wink.gif[/img] I think he's just sick and tired of pleasing people so he decided to please himself for a change.
It was his way of saying thanks to all the fans who have stuck by him. But how he must be feeling about it all now, I've no idea. If he's not too happy about the way things have panned out then he perhaps doesn't much feel like sharing his thoughts with his fans right now. I mean people always want nice, positive stuff from him but and I stress the word but if that is not how he truly feels about things now, how does he reconcile his feelings with them?
Janie xx
I agree Janie. I wonder if by "people" he meant Sony people lol
I think he should if he doesnt realise that at least a segment of his fanbase and even some of the most cynical ones (myself) absolutely think TTATS was worth it. Theres no way he should apologise for that album.
I just wonder if it was so humilating and humbling with spin doing what it did. How do you feel when something that means so much to you, you just cant get out there. It must be frustrating. He may be happy and contend with the way things are going. I dont know how they have planned things with this album and they may be doing exactly what they personally planned with this album.
maybe he just simply hasnt even thought about his online journal as you do when you get caught with other things. How many times can you tell your fans you love them blah blah before it feels insincere. Maybe he doesnt want to present himself as that person.
Kat
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ February 20, 2005 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Dyan ]</font>
I think TTATS is a brilliant album. I think putting this out in the public eye is really an emotionally and could even be physically draining. People never really open up that much to other people the way Darren has, unless its to a very trusted few. Darren has done it to millions.
I think what he gave us is part of him and if there is nothing more of him to give right now then so be it. Be happy with what you have got.
To have this not do as well as he might have wanted could really hurt.
I really don't think this is the last of Mr Hayes and his wonderful talent. He is born to do this...
As for Sony I think they are in breach of contract to many artists. These stories are heard over and over again with them. They need some new management or a complete corporate restructuring.
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ February 20, 2005 02:50 PM: Message edited by: LainyB ]</font>
Have you ever written something, then went away and realized what it was that you REALLY wanted to say? Well, this is one of those for me. lol So I'm editing.
The thing about Sony is that I think it's easy to fault a faceless entity. We don't see the people who work every day and who probably try their best for the artists. I'm sure there are some in Sony who only think of the buck and how much a given cd will sell. BUT I am also sure that there are countless others who are striving to do their best, and they have to find a way to balance their needs with the corporate needs and with the artist's needs. And I think in a way the artists have an easier time because they are very good at explaining their emotions and presenting their "side" of things to the public. Sony and it's employees, on the other hand, are somewhat the hidden factor and thus are easy to paint as the "bad guys".
I have always gotten the sense that for whatever reason, Sony wasn't thrilled with Tension. No business sits on something that that they think will sell, so my gut always said that there was a LOT more going on than the happy happy reports the fans kept getting about how thrilled Sony was with the new effort. But that brings me to my next point.
Kat and Janie, you are likely right and most of the remaining fans wouldn't accept a less-than happy and glowing Darren. BUT maybe this is my morning to be fair and see both sides, but all I can think right now is "well, that's what you get when you spend years grooming a fanbase to only be happy and only show the positive side."
Darren has every right to grow musically and in his emotional expectations of those around him. ........ I really want this to stand as a flat out statement because it's true. He has every right to grow and I can fully understand why (if this is what happened) his "everything is perfect" facade became too hard to bear.
And yet, this sort of goes back to something we talked about in that other thread. I don't think other people should be expected to immediately be able to shift gears to match his. Darren and his staff DID encourage certain things, and I personally believe that one of those things was an active fan base that was sickly sweet with only "postive and happy" people. Changing that will take time and it'll be messy. IF changing it even registers on Darren's radar. It might not.
The thing is that I don't think he HAS stopped caring or lost interest, and I think that's why we still see his fan club presenting that "everything must always be positive" image and expecting fans to do the same on the fan club board. It think it's also why we'll still see him working with specific fans in order to get the right image out.
Sometimes, I get the sense ....... well, truthfully, I often get the sense and have since early in Spin days ...... that Darren doesn't fully believe that simply being Darren is good enough. But then, who among us has the sense of self-worth? I don't. I know that I often struggle with internalizing the evil things some people said about me and not letting that overwhelm the "me" that I know that I am. I can't imagine what it's like to be in Darren's position if he shares those same self-doubts and where he has to talk about himself non-stop in interviews and where the focus is always on him.
GEEZ, I'm back to trying to understand his point of view. "Darren, get thee BACK!!!!!" *makes the cross sign and runs* lol
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ February 20, 2005 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Dyan ]</font>
Dyan I do agree with all of what you have said as well. I think that simply may be the case as well.
You are right in what you say about grooming a fanbase to behave one way and expect certain things. You cant then expect that same fanbase to change at the same time as you. I guess just like I couldnt expect Darren to see what I saw about situations. God hope he comes to the realisations one day LOL
It would be hard being Darren just like its hard being Kat somedays. We all have struggles and emotions and good days and bad. Sometimes we cant make all the parts of our lifes work so we do what we can with some parts.
Yes its still hard for me to reconcile things. Why certain fans are treated the way they are. Why others were treated so badly-including you Dyan. Why it all ended up a damm mess. Why we were always tainted as the bad fans.
Still would like to hear what future plans are for TTATS and touring/music wise.
Kat
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I also have to wonder if the attitude of "Questioning = negative" also has to do with the worldwide conservative attitude endorsed after 9/11 - Iraq war.Quote:
Originally posted by Kattitude:
Why we were always tainted as the bad fans.
It's the whole "If you're not with us 100%, find another country to live in", which has negated the ability to conscientiously object and question what needs to be questioned.
We threatened the security of the fantasy, therefore we weren't welcome.
Something more immediate - I'm amused to note that there's a posted thread at the FC about old diary posts and Leo's diary etc. Like old memories are a substitute right? Well, for those refusing to look at the present, I guess they are.
Looks like a nice little Band Aid for those wanting to bring things up about the lack of communication from all parts.
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ February 22, 2005 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Disco Biscuit ]</font>
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I also have to wonder if the attitude of "Questioning = negative" also has to do with the worldwide conservative attitude endorsed after 9/11 - Iraq war.Quote:
Originally posted by Disco Biscuit:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Kattitude:
Why we were always tainted as the bad fans.
It's the whole "If you're not with us 100%, find another country to live in", which has negated the ability to conscientiously object and question what needs to be questioned.
We threatened the security of the fantasy, therefore we weren't welcome. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is a very interesting point.
To be honest, I find it kind of sad that anyone would be dubbed a 'bad fan'just for expressing an opinion. Surely if someone is willing to stick around, despite their cynicism or genuine reasons for being unhappy with a situation, and give an artist support even if the magic is fading, then that's a good thing. How many of us would want Darren to fail? I certainly wouldn't, because as Terry already put it so well, the music world is full of crap now and it's a shame to see talent so wasted. I think Darren has grown so much musically since Spin, and I am still interested to see where he can take it next.
As for Leonie's diary, it is interesting for newer fans like me to read...I think with hindsight that the whole 'Leonie writes about what SG are doing' thing was actually very clever. With the benefit of hindsight, Darren was pretending everything was alright, Daniel was past pretending, and therefore Leonie was keeping up the facade that everything was alright when it wasn't. I'm sure that there were lots of genuinely good and happy times in those last years, but at least the bad things could be glossed over.
Edited because I've got my bad mood head on and thought I was being too nasty!
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ February 22, 2005 05:40 AM: Message edited by: sharonlk ]</font>
Biscuit I agree that could infact be it. They dont want us in DH land cause we threatned the facade the fantasy. Even though it SG wise had all fallen apart and cracks were breaking through everywhere. They were getting some quick filler to fix them and didnt want anyone saying the foundations underneath were still all crumbly and werent going to hold.
Sharon I like what you have said about Darren pretending, Daniel being past and Leo keeping up appearances. I agree that things like that are interesting for sure. When I first came across all things online SG I read it all and its great to get the history of how things were. But yeah I still *smirked* a little at what the post was suppose to represent. Keep the masses happy? Or a genuine look back at some entries??? They mainly serve to kind of make it obvious how things are now with DH pulling back from all that.
Kat
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not quite sure who you are referring to when you use the word "they" Kat, but I have my own feelings on this and I'm not sure if they fit with what you are saying or go against it. I honestly don't think that they, they meaning Darren or the ptb (gosh I hate that term [img]confused.gif[/img] ) don't want you in DH Land. I think the people who groom the fanbase and create the aura of it, are other fans. I think the greatest power, or downfall, any fanbase has is the fans themselves. I think the messages being projected do not come from anyone other than the fans themselves.Quote:
Originally posted by Kattitude:
[QB]Biscuit I agree that could infact be it. They dont want us in DH land cause we threatned the facade the fantasy.
PS -- sorry for coming in late and perhaps misunderstanding things.. I've just been very busy at home and haven't had alot of time to group thoughts together about this topic or others.
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ February 23, 2005 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Laurina ]</font>
You know what.. on second though (or is it third or fourth?) just ignore what I've said. I really can't substantiate it and I'm feeling off cuff and probably not making sense. Sorry ladies.
Laurie dont apologise for not making sense or having your say.
If you have read all my posts and those in DH thread I have agreed with each differing point of view. I have become a mass of contradictions myself [img]redface.gif[/img]
Its just I am trying with these dicussions to not let the way I feel about fans and fan run things taint the way I should feel about DH and his music.
I know that many a board the aura of it and how its vibe is, is definately created by the fans themselves. But I guess with the fanclub board from what i have heard ( cause Ive never been in there) the natural vibe from all fans is stifled. It has to be a certain way or the highway. The board doesnt seem by all accounts to be guided by some solid guidelines but ruled with a postive fist.
The whole vibe from the PTB etc etc after the breakup was if you werent 100% supportive of Darren and his actions there was somehow something wrong with you. Many other fans seem to help perpetuate this as well. Many were great about it all too and for those fans I do thank them.
Kat
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks Kat, I appreciate your words [img]smile.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by Kattitude:
Laurie dont apologise for not making sense or having your say.
If you have read all my posts and those in DH thread I have agreed with each differing point of view. I have become a mass of contradictions myself [img]redface.gif[/img]
Its just I am trying with these dicussions to not let the way I feel about fans and fan run things taint the way I should feel about DH and his music.
I know that many a board the aura of it and how its vibe is, is definately created by the fans themselves. But I guess with the fanclub board from what i have heard ( cause Ive never been in there) the natural vibe from all fans is stifled. It has to be a certain way or the highway. The board doesnt seem by all accounts to be guided by some solid guidelines but ruled with a postive fist.
The whole vibe from the PTB etc etc after the breakup was if you werent 100% supportive of Darren and his actions there was somehow something wrong with you. Many other fans seem to help perpetuate this as well. Many were great about it all too and for those fans I do thank them.
Kat
I do think that sometimes... but only sometimes.. there is a sense of "it is this way or the highway"; but I still firmly believe that that message is conveyed from one fan to another fan to another etc... I don't think, not in my opinion anyway, it comes from "higher up".
Everything is always open to personal interpretation though, because what I feel is definitely not what others feel.
There has defintely been an aura of "if you don't like absolutely everything he sings/says/does/eats/drinks then you are a bad fan; but again, I think that generates from fans themselves and ... how do I say this? ... some fans need to be seen as the best fan in the world; the most supportive, the most friendly, the most loveable, the most know-it-all, etc...
I am not talking about people who are either in, or what others percieve as, "higher positions" (That includes Steen and I because there are some existing notions that we have some sort of power and are inside Darren's trouser pocket.. not like that would be a bad place to be [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), I'm talking about every day average fans; which is really what we should all be. There appears to be this mass competition (or maybe not mass but it exists and it is loud) between every day average fans, to be the best and to get noticed by the "right" people (Darren, Tracey, etc...) and therefore you must like absolutely everything.
Every fanbase has people like that, so it isn't a weird phenomena that wexists only within this fanbase; I just find that there is far far more of that within the DH fanbase at this moment. It makes me sad because it really effects my enjoyment within this wonderful world of Darren (and I do think it is a wonderful world [img]smile.gif[/img] ). If people would just let go, let People be People (that was an intentional Depeche Mode quote [img]wink.gif[/img] ) things could be different. Again, this is just my personal opinion and I could be way off-base here.
For anyone who feels that they can't say something because it goes against the notion that you have to be 100% supportive and positive; I say.. screw that. Be who you are. Post as you want. Be honest, enjoy who you are, and people will have to get used to it. I know that is easier said than done, particularily if you are attacked for it; but more often than not, the more you be yourself, the more you express yourself honestly, the more people will get used to it and realize it is AOK to not like certain things and that that does not mean you hate Darren.
edited because.. good god I can't spell!
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ February 24, 2005 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Laurina ]</font>
Thankyou for saying all that Laurie. I do agree with all the points you have made.
Alot of the "bad" in the fanbase is from the fans themselves. Yes its all that recognition seeking that I cant stand. People want to feel that there words are always postive so Darren, Tracey etc etc will think better of them. Its almost as if they are scared to say something just incase it gets back to them or the other fans who seemingly act like they hold the power will pass judgement on them. For myself I am not worried what any of them would think. Sometimes it must feel like you have to be "in" with certain "fans" to get Darren's approval.
I guess we the fans have been our own worst enemies. It just seems like there is extremes of fans. If the fans had gone to the FC board with a different attitude on the whole.. sort of presented a united front as intelligent fans who have always spoken out and had discussions on all things Darren, then maybe, possibly things would of been different in fan club la la land. But it seemed like "some" fans set the scene for how all fans should act.
I dont know the whole thing doesnt even seem to represent the Darren of today and his new get it all out there even if its not pretty attitude.
Kat
Kat
Hi Guys
Interesting discussion. There's a lot here that rings true/helps.
I'd just like to say about "extreme fans" - I believe they are getting free reign because they are 95% of who are talking at the moment.
I know that feels like a self fulfilling prophecy, but I guess it all has to do with what percentage of the fan base utilize online capabilities to maximum effect (own websites, use forums), and what percentage of that percentage are vocal or "extreme".
The vocal "non extremists" (those who have "learnt" over the years, or were non extremist to beging with) have all died off recently because they've been overwhelmed by the extremists, or events in DH world (or lack thereof).
Probably the balance will return when/if Darren returns (to the biz or popularity), but it may be too late to change things around at the FC.
The atmosphere at the Sony BBS has changed (mainly because of fewer people around), but that's been an "ok" change because it was natural and fluid ie: it changed with people, not because rules were laid down about atmosphere. Because the BBS is fluid, it may change again. It's not a bad place, just quiet.
Anywho, lots of words about things lately, because it seems that's all we have about D lately. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Edited
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ February 26, 2005 07:41 PM: Message edited by: sharonlk ]</font>
well, in terms of "bad fans", a part of me is still very amused at being a moderator of the DH BBS now because there was a time where i know i was considered bad seed and a "troublemaker" by a number of fans LOL I think some people still see me that way, or as some sort of "bad fan sympathizer" because i (along with Laurie) don't let other fans bully people into only posting "nice" things on the DH BBS heh heh. So i would offer that as a comfort against the idea that Darren and his people only want the super-happy-positive people on his boards or even as moderators because someone higher up obviously didn't have a problem with Carla suggesting me as a moderator along with Laurie and Bri.
As Laurie and Dyan touched on, i think there are a mix of people working for Darren and working for Sony and since we are pretty much kept in the complete dark we can only guess why things happen or don't happen. Not that i think we shouldn't guess or speculate, as long as we realize we are just cloud-watching! LOL As in "that cloud looks like a bunny" "no i think it looks like a duck" heh heh
LOL Steen I think you must of gotten through on a loophole. No really I think you were and are always able to present a balanced argument. You dont get all fired up on the boards like say me LOL. Your past reputation probably preceded you.
What I really want to know is WHY? they got rid of Dyan. Who said to do that. Did they get a flood of complaints and what they suddenly take notice of that when they havent ever listened to complaints about themselves. Did she do something wrong? I mean they basically lied with that rotation story. So I mean even with everything else.. that just doesnt add up to me
Kat
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Awww thanks Sharon [img]redface.gif[/img] That's really nice of you to say.Quote:
Well, this cloud that looks like a bunny says hoorah to you two as moderators because you're bloody good at it!
I would like to say, I don't think there is anything wrong with fans who are 100% supportive; who agree with what is being said and done, etc.. there is zero wrong with that. I think understanding is a 2 way street. For every person who wants to share that they aren't happy with something that was said or done, there are going to be people who are happy; and both sides have to understand one another. People don't have to agree, but it would be nice to see some more understanding.
100% support isn't fake. I can say that because I feel it myself, and what I feel is not fake. But there are problems with people accepting that that is possible, and for lack of a better word "mistreating" or judging fans because they support all that goes on.
There are also problems the other way around. There are fans who have a difficult time accepting that it is possible to not like everything; that you can still enjoy Darren and his music, you can still be a fan, but you can critique things and not always like what you see and hear. Sometimes fans are judged based solely on this and that isn't right either.
All I am really saying is that it would be good to see more acceptance that every type of fan is welcome and just because people don't agree does not mean they can't speak out in regards to how they feel.
Honestly... this whole thing has tired me to the point of where I am miserable and feeling like I just don't give a f*** any longer. Sad when that happens because I used to get such joy from this fanbase.
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ February 28, 2005 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Laurina ]</font>
Hey Laur (again [img]smile.gif[/img] ) I guess part of what we're talking about is the discussion (part billion) about the delivery of service at the FC (bouncing back and forth between boards here).
You're right, the understanding part of discussions is quite frustrating, but what I find frustrating is the amount of time wasted having to say "I'm not hate-this, I'm trying to say nicely that" and "I understand where you're coming from...", plus people having to decipher and translate between people "she said this because", "see the other side of the story".
I know that's the thing of a good moderator, but it really clutters a discussion when people make it so emotive and take a discussion off tangent because they've taken a tone of voice the wrong way.
I'm with you on being frustrated with the whole thing. I don't think it's a Darren community thing as such - it's a whole internet thing. This whole "taking the body language/face off discussion" has made a real social problem that we just haven't found a way to deal with, other than with emotions (which people don't trust anyway, because they are often miscontrued as fake/saying the opposite of the person's intent
ie: "I understand, I don't hate you *smilie* - but you hate my guts anyway...."
Kat, we'll never really know.
What I DO know is that it was Darren's management who made the call (and remember that Leonie wasn't his only manager, so I don't know which managment office), and it was over something that I said on the bbs. They felt that it was easier to change moderators than to approach me directly. What I don't know is what I said or why, after all the years of support and work to support the music, that I didn't deserve a second chance or why someone couldn't take the time to talk to me first. But I suspect that it was a combination of things.
Truthfully, I was a bad choice as a mod and accepting the position was an even worse one. The reason that I was a bad choice is that I was (simply put) too controversial. People seemed to either like me or hate me, and too many people were vocal in their "leaving" statements the very moment that my name went up. AND I knew that would probably happen and I expected it, so I have to accept responsiblity for letting my ego believe that I could overcome that.
I was also opinionated. My feeling is that when things were going badly (as they did for Darren with Spin), that critical opinions were best kept private. And perhaps as a moderator, I shouldn't have been so open with my thoughts. Had I been given more time and had someone wanted to keep me enough to approach me, I think that I could (and would) have modified my natural tendency to speak out. But as things happened, there wasn't enough time for me to grow into the position (remember that I was only a mod for three months AND that I had virtually no help .. Carla was burnt out and missing in action and Emma, bless her soul, hadn't yet learned to stand up and take a firm position because she also needed time to grow into the job). The bottom line is that I misjudged things in a huge way and didn't realize that my opinions were getting me into hot water.
Then add in the fact that I tend to react badly when I feel attacked. From day one, I had a target on my back and I knew it. Friends who meant well had told me of things they had heard about other fans' plans to complain and get rid of me, and well....... I handled things badly. Again, that's my responsiblity.
Plus, because I wasn't one of the fans that would travel to see Darren or had met him, he and Leonie didn't 'know' me other than online. I think that matters. Maybe a lot. And perhaps it's only natural ....... I don't know how to put what I'm thinking, but I think it made a difference. I DO know (and this is one of those things that I wish that I didn't know) that Darren and Leonie listen to what fans think about each other. I'm not sure how heavily that factors into things, but they do ask and seem to consider what someone (I don't mean anyone in particular -- I just mean someone that they know and someone that they could ask for an opinion) thinks about another person. So perhaps that's why the fact that I never had the chance to get to know them as people and to have them know me made a difference. They didn't get to know anything about me other than what they saw online, and what they saw was colored by what people said (and yes, I know more than I should about what was said). Btw, I'm not faulting Darren and Leonie here. I think this is human nature and something that a lot of us do.
So all in all, what happened was that I misjudged where the line was and I had the bad timing to cross that line at a time when perhaps there wasn't a lot of extra time to give to fans because there were more important things to focus on ......... like Darren's career. Removing me with a quick lie was the an efficient way to get rid of a problem and move on quickly. Again, I don't fault them that decision because that's good business to deal with things quickly and efficiently.
The thing is that it hurts to be the "problem" and to know that I deserved no more effort than an impersonal lie signed "Columbia Records". Those of you who know me, know that I strongly belive in second chances. As many second chances as it takes to get something right, in fact. *smiles* I'm not always good at living my belief, but that truly is a strong underlying principle (a moral value, even) in my life and it is something that I always come back to when I stray from it. So even though I'll take full responsiblity for what I did wrong as a fan and as a moderator, it still stings to know that I didn't deserve another chance.
BUT maybe they misjudged me too. Maybe they didn't think that I'd leave over the decision or didn't realize that I'd be hurt over how I was handled (I find it hard to believe that they didn't realize that I'd be hurt by getting a cold, impersonal message........ but it's possible). And it's often very hard to approach someone after the fact and after you know that your actions hurt them. Maybe Darren and Leonie felt as hurt and betrayed by my reaction as I did over how I was treated.
Still ........ I deserve second chances too and some understanding on their part would have been nice. You know?
Sorry, long ramble. lol
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ February 28, 2005 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Dyan ]</font>
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, this cloud that looks like a bunny says hoorah to you two as moderators because you're bloody good at it!Quote:
Originally posted by sunhawk:
I think some people still see me that way, or as some sort of "bad fan sympathizer" because i (along with Laurie) don't let other fans bully people into only posting "nice" things on the DH BBS heh heh. So i would offer that as a comfort against the idea that Darren and his people only want the super-happy-positive people on his boards or even as moderators because someone higher up obviously didn't have a problem with Carla suggesting me as a moderator along with Laurie and Bri.
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL I guess it all comes down to 3 versions, my version , their version and the truth. I guess it was like Darren said a messy divorce.Quote:
Originally posted by mlue:
"The whole vibe from the PTB etc etc after the breakup was if you werent 100% supportive of Darren and his actions there was somehow something wrong with you. Many other fans seem to help perpetuate this as well. Many were great about it all too and for those fans I do thank them."
Interesting that was how you saw things.
I guess I would have said that was the vibe from a contingent of fans but I wouldn't have said it was the vibe of the ptb (and I hate that term too). My memory of those days was a message from Darren with his side of the story. I would have said the vibe from the message from Darren, from Leonie and from Carla was more of a plea for understanding, for peace in a very riled up board...some being pissed at Darren and some being pissed at other fans.
But I am a lot like Laurie in my viewpoint...I think most of the vibe of every place comes from the fans and very little actually comes from Darren and company.
Laurie I dont think theres anything wrong in being 100% supportive if you feel that way. Theres nothing wrong even with saying hey its not the way Id do it but I support it and him etc. If people truly feel that way they have every right to feel that way.
Dyan thanks for explaining all that. I know at the time of you being mod I was still in Anti Dyan phase (hey see everyone gets a turn) but thats not the issue. I could of marched up and down screamed blue murder for say Maggz to be removed and would any one of listened??? It wouldnt of mattered a jot. You did the best you could with what you had. It was a hard time exp with the FC happening and people feeling left out. You tried to make it all like the way it use to be. Everyone sharing info about Darren and the board being as you stated for the fans. We didnt realise that we got judged on the board by who we were and how we posted. Plus when you have certain people making sure Darren sees who they allow him too, well it just makes things uglier.
It may of been business so easier to do it impersonal like. But in the act of doing it they made it personal. I think they could of talked about it with you if they had problems.
Kat
Steen, Kat, thanks. [img]smile.gif[/img] I was coming back to edit, but maybe it should stand as I wrote it. You know me ....... always changing my mind. LOL
I did meet Darren a listening party for Affirmation. It was one of those situations where he was mingling among fans to spend a moment chatting with each, so yes I too had a moment to chat with Darren. It was very nice, and he seemed very nice. But to be honest, I guess that I don't really think of that as "meeting" him. Odd, huh?
I guess my point is, though, to put that in context with some others who have had several meetings and have made an effort to travel to see him live. NOW I am not judging here or saying what is "right" or "wrong"....... 'k? But there are those of us who for one reason or another have gone to different countries or attended several shows or appearances in the same country and even on the same tour. And many others have hung out to hope to get a chance to say 'hi' or gotten invited back stage or something like that.
(OKAY, to be brutely honest, I did hang out once after the Chicago show with a group of friends only to discover that we made horrid stalkers because the "star" went out a different door and all we got to see was the local town drunk. LOL)
Marilu, it really is more than just coming from fans or things fans do to themselves. I think to a degree, that fans are responsible for the mess. BUT I also think that we've seen several instances where Darren or his family or his staff were closely involved with certain fans, and those fans all seem to carry the same message. To say that it's only fans who create the issues around here seems (to me) to ignore the big, pink elephant sitting in the corner.
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ March 01, 2005 02:27 AM: Message edited by: Dyan ]</font>