DKP and me...(For lack of a better title)

Well first I'd like to say I'm happy that LDK is trying to forge ahead to new frontiers especially in the raiding department. However in my opinion the change is a kick in a teeth to all that made raiding with LDK fun. With our recent change over to the DKP raiding system I believe it may be time for me to stop raiding with you all or as it may be stop playing with you all entirely. My rl friends that played have all gone on the greener pasteurs but I've held on due to the respect and fun I've had with you all.

It's been incredible to look forward to the day before school starts again because it means I will get to hang out with so many of you and have fun raiding. However DKP and myself have never been friends to say the least. Having quit both a PoTime and an Ssra era guild because of frustration over never having enough points for anything due to shortening play times means I have a valid reason to loathe the system. Hence why I've loved being out raiding with you all, because it meant that no matter how hard I tried or didn't there was always a small chance I would get some item I wanted. This new system for us has brought up alot of memories about how much I hated DKP, however this time I have no little family guild to go back to and feel equal because amount that I played didn't matter.

Ok so I'm talking alot about me but there are flaws to DKP which I'm not sure alot of you have considered. I've voiced my concerns over the lack of a truly "valid" way to record the points though it is minor. The problem that was overlooked however was that of those of us who can't make it everytime but try our hardest to do so. For the example I'm going to use Gael though he himself may not care.

The problem is that for people like Gael who log on once a month on average and join one of our raids do so because they like being together with old friends. The chance to win an item is gravy for them that in my opinion keeps them coming back. With DKP they can no longer win anything because they can only get on so rarely. With time they may begin to feel that performing their best or performing at all is a waste of time since they are hopelessly behind in ever being able to get anything out of thier effort. So Edi says there is a way to gain points while not raiding. Unfortunatly this does little to address the problem since I highly doubt there will be a way for a person, who logs on once a month, to make up all the points they missed out on getting in the little time they have to play.

So what you may say. You snooze you lose. Frankly it is a little unfair to punish people who log on for one raid because they missed the other three before it because their real life had better things for them. For those of us that go on a raid weekly we weekly have a chance to win an item we want, if it doesn't drop maybe it will next time. With DKP a person like Gael may log on and join a raid when possible but eventually realize that because their real life has other plans that they will not get anything in the Everquest world.

DKP works, that much I can tell you. However for it to work you must be able to replace quickly those who drop out of the "point race." Hence the system's effectivness in larger scale guilds. Here in LDK the loss of even one member still has an impact of those who remain. At least I hope it still does because the day it doesn't is the day I move on.

As a note I will continue to be part of LDK for now but if I find that the DKP system brings up enough memories of the drama that happened in guilds that worked off it then I shall promptly remove myself because thats not the LDK I know and love.

*****Alright go ahead and laugh at my errors or things I left out now if you even made it this far and No I'm not reading that again to see if it made sense.*****

i know what your tryign to say gnome and the only thing i would say is ... PLZZZZZZZ dont leave oh great Pooka lord. I know we are very diff from other guilds and we will always be a family even if you go or dont go to raids so we will not be mean to others cause they have lots pnts. You had bad experiences before dont let that get in the way of friendship. think about it and plz plz dont leave. well i dont have anything else to say . the last decition is yours to take. [img]cool.gif[/img]

Wow Gnomer...I seriously hope you don't leave because of this. I can understand your concern but you have to see it from another perspective. LDK is moving on to higher and higher areas of the game, and the loot is getting better and better. This is exactly why this system needs to be implemented. Imagine that you've been on every single raid thats gone on for a month, and an item you've been hoping for finally drops after all this time. Theres a roll, and somebody whos logged on once wins it. Now I know the world isnt fair...or even close to it, but that would be a nice kick in the ass if that happened. I know how great of a feeling it is to get a new item thats an upgrade, but if you rarely play, how useful will it be to you. It would be much better off in the hands of somebody who attends every raid. Maybe its just my way of looking at it, but it seems rather selfish to want something when you'd hardly use it. This is just my point of view... anyone else want to comment on this?

Please dont leave because of something stupid like this Gnomer...

Until I read this post I was certain that DKP would definitely be a step forward for our guild. After all, it would give our members an extra inscentive to join in on raids. Gnomer makes some important points however, and I feel that this should be re-evaluated.

According to Gnomency this is a step away from the family and friends guild we currently are and more towards a raiding guild, and as i've also had experience with a DKP system I am inclined to believe him.

What we need is a way to encourage players to join in on raids that doesnt penalize players who, for whatever reason, are unable to show up.

Before I joined Prexus and LDK, I had an idea I wanted to test if I ever made my own guild. This new, and possibly insane, system of loot distribution combines randoming items with a point system.

For attending events, raids, and helping guildies, members would receive points. On raids when items drop, each player who wanted it would /random for it. However players would be able to spend their points to increase the total number they rolled. For instance two players want Boss_gear_01. Player 1 has 10 points and rolls a 50, Player 2 has 30 points and rolls a 41. Player 2 can then spend any number of points to increase the roll, for instance 15 points giving a roll of 56 leaving the player with 15 points left. Player 1 can also spend points to increase his roll, or concede the item and save his points for another day.

The main problems with this is it is slightly confusing and can become time consume if a large number of players try to win the item.

Like I said, its just something I have wanted to try. Hopefully it is not so unbelievably confusing that it releases massive chaos [img]graemlins/rain.gif[/img] !

...just a thought.

I don't know the what the answer is however I think the DKP system is better than nothing. I know for a fact that there are individuals in the guild who have never won a roll on any of our raid events who do attend them regularly. While new recruits on their first go round or someone who might slink in at the end of the event wins a really nice upgrade. We all have lives outside of the game which includes jobs, kids, etc. Some form of merit system needs to be in place for dedicated individuals (if you need an example Conred is a good one!) before they get discouraged and start looking elsewhere! How many times have we, as a guild, bent over backwards to help guildees to have them quit the game or leave for greener pastures, sometimes the squeaky wheel isn't the one you should be worried about ... [img]frown.gif[/img]

I think you will find that the majority of our memebers when faced with the fact another guild member wants or needs the item as much or more than they do they gladly offer to let their friend have it. I didn't think LDK was all about gimme the loots!!!! [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] So, any and all who are bent out of shape thinking that you wont get your share of stuff maybe you should stop and look around at your guildmates: some of which have been doing without for your benfit since they joined!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 25, 2005 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Mysticat ]</font>

Well, we all have things outside of EQ that place demands upon our time. I think the DKP system will allow guildies who have bad luck on rolls an equal chance of obtaining nice upgrades during our raid events. I know their our people who are long time members who have earned gear/upgrades based on participation and what they have contributed to the guild that always seem to get left out when it is time to hand out any drops.

We are supposed to be a family guild, family means more than what can I get and can you guys come and help me get my 3rd epic: it means friendship and caring about others not being selfish and having a little consideration for others. I think the guild will be much more successful with open communication with includes positve input and less critisism.

Everyone is entitiled to their own opinion and if you find you are not happy in your current situation and cannot provide or assist in producing an enviorment where you are happy then maybe its time to find what you are actually looking for.

...Ice, as you said, people are entitled to their own opinions, and Gnomer has his own about the system. He says he doesn't like it, and he pointed out a flaw. It's constructive critisism, and we can build off that.

I'll have to agree with Gnomer about the fact that people who don't play as much will most likely fall behind on points, therefor when the time comes they won't be able to keep up with bids. Granted I think some people will be nice about loots and realize they don't need EVERYTHING (I hope) and that some people don't really have as much freetime as others...

....but still, when a nice 100 hp 100 mana 10 to all stats item drops...do you really think that someone would gladly turn it down for you if they could use it too?

Personally I think Trict's idea is niffty...and if you don't like it well...I guess you hang onto the idea of good luck bad luck too strongly. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Another thing we could do is try to moderate it. If someone stockpiles like 100 points and outbids everyone every time, it completely defeats the purpose. So say you bid on one item and win, you're out for one turn...or something to that sort. We NEED to set up valid rules for this, or it won't really work.

If men were angels, they wouldn't need government. If government was full of angels, then it wouldn't need men.

Quote:

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Muyah Puppyfeetz -- Another thing we could do is try to moderate it. If someone stockpiles like 100 points and outbids everyone every time, it completely defeats the purpose. So say you bid on one item and win, you're out for one turn...or something to that sort. We NEED to set up valid rules for this, or it won't really work.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is how it works, you win you are out for that bidding for anything else as I understand it, just like random. Another thing is the bids are anon, so if you really want something and you have 100points you would burn them to ensure you get the item, 1 item 1 bid no rebids. (ex. I really want 100hp aug, we've both got 50points but only bid 41, you really want it too but bid 42 points -- you win but now have 8 points. Another thing Edi said was that you could earn points in other ways than just showing up to the Sunday events, what thats going to be I dont think anyone has figured out yet. I know its not a perfect solution and I understand why some don't like it but I think its alot better than nothing. I for one can never play Thur-Sat and every other Wed and thats just from work so I do understand lack of play time. These raids are suppose to be enablers for our guild, we do them to help people gear up. If you are off doing your own thing all the time and not helping your friends why should you have an equal chance of an upgrade as compared to someone who invests the time to earn the points? Maybe I'm the one with the problem and I am just out in left field playing by myself: heavens knows I don't personnally get alot of play time with the majority of you and therefore maybe I should just take my own eariler advice if thats the case ...

Just one final thought for everyone, if someone had earned 100points 14 or so at a time and they were willing to bid them on item X wouldn't they have earned it? Its not like the next week they will still have 100points to bid again... [img]confused.gif[/img]

EDIT: and while I too like Tricts idea it doesn't really solve the problem you were worried about... such as someone rolls a 75 and point horder rolls a 45 he/she then only has to use enough points to beat the 75 roll plus whatever points the high roller has so say for a total of 56 DKP points for a total of 101. Where as in the original system if the person really wanted that item they would have probably burned them all as to not chance loosing the item.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2005 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Mysticat ]</font>

Guess I can add a couple comments of my own:
1) Thanks all for ur postings. I think some good ideas were kicked around and comments made that are not insulting or hurtful to others. This is how it is supposed to work.
2) Gnomer (and anyone else who feels the same way) please give this a chance. If u leave just because of this, I think u are lessening ur playing enjoyment, not enhancing it.
3) Overall, I think the raid point system is a good thing if u consider that the purpose is to bring more guildies out. I have been on "raids" where it was more like a group than a raid. This should help prevent that, in my opinion.
4) Nothing is going to be completely perfect. If Gnomer and others have issues with the raid point system, then perhaps it can be modified to their satisfaction. Mysti mentioned that points can be made OUTSIDE of the raid. (Perhaps like when u are in a group that has a LDK majority?) That seems to hold promise to those who play less.

Anyways, thats my 2cp worth.
Gor, Con and the gang.

blurg, my over imaginative mind kicked in again and I just had the crazy idea of someone getting ultra greedy and point farming and out bidding everyone else..Sorry for the crazy paranoidness [img]tongue.gif[/img]

but either way I'm just wanting/hoping for ideas on rules and such that you guys feel might be needed in it. I'm sure we want this to be something that encourages people to join in on raids for the points, ensure that people who do give an effort to help the guild get rewarded in some way, and preventing random people who might join the guild and never help out but expect phat lewtz anyway from getting items they don't deserve.

I don't know what Edi has been planning for the outside of raid points, but I think groups sounds like a possibility, Con. Or maybe like mini raids but not really sunday raids (say like doing a small epic fight like killing the corrupted brownie for the drood epic or hunting for Eldrig for the bardy epic or looking for pearls for the cleric epic in skyfire... small things like that..and so on.)

But another thing to throw into the mix that I wanted your opinions on..what do you think about being able to spend your points and deciding to turn over the item you win to a guildy friend? Yes or no question pretty much. If yes, why do you think so, if no, why do you think not? (There would be rules on how this worked too, like if you did turn over loot to a guildy out of kindness you both might be out for the next item rolled on...or something like that)

Anyway, just flying more ideas around..Thanks for listening and your imput and stuff! [img]wink.gif[/img]

Hiyas, and ummm, well I was appraised of some of the details of this system just last night, and I can see valid points from everyone, I will have to take a closer look at how this system will work to understand all your different views before I can give an informed opinion on it.

Gomer, please stick around, I do not think we will lose our "family" atmospere, or at least I hope not, but the others do have valid issues on how some of the items we might encounter should be destributed, and since we are getting stronger and more able to try new and more chalenging places, the resulting loot will be more desirable I think. So, what is the answer to the dilemma? just what we have started here, a discusion with input from all, so we can perhaps find a compromise acceptable to everyone, or most everyone. For myself, I will re-read the previous posts, and the ones that follow, listen to what everyone says, and hopefully be able to contribute some usefull ideas to the mix, anything we can do to keep the fun and enjoyment in our raids, but still allow for a fair method of loot rewards (maybe wrong term, sorry) is a worthy goal.

Well, see you in game, luck and good hunting !

Here's some more of my comments.
I can see where keeping records on points earned during a raid would be fairly easy. But points earned outside the raid would be another matter. Here are some questions I have:

Would a group of 3 or more be considered an LDK group? Does the group have to be after an item for a guildie or can it be for a non-guildie? Do u still get points for a failure? Does the item have to be No-Drop? Does the item have to be for an epic? How about LDoN items? (Conred is after an Anger3 aug that will require about 12 more adv). Does an officer have to be on-line to verify the groups activity?
Im not trying to shoot down anyone, just pointing out that any points earned outside the raid system will need to be clearly stated.
Gor, Con and the gang.

Heya all! =p imo guild merit system is best. The leader and officers talk on private channel and decides who gets loot! All the stuffs youz thinkz r the rules! like- who is on most, upgrades, level, personality possibly, able to use best. Many things you will talk over easily, b/c u know eachother well, some may not be, but deciding for your guild will always be more fair (because you as individuals are) then rules that always need updating or have flaws. Yadda yadda yadda i haveta leave my schoolo soo-o cuttin it short~ Hiyas! and Gael! GAELdogg! Please post a time i could meet you one last time on EQ =). Needta kill account sometime hehe 8(. Apples all!

Oooh that's a good idea Sub, I never really thought of it that way. I'm up for it if the members/other officers are. I just want something that'll be nice and fair for everyone.... [img]wink.gif[/img]

....and of course for Gnomer to stay...*pokepoke botherbotherGnomer!!!*
('")@.@("') PANDA COMMANDS YOU TO STAY, DARN IT!!!

**EDIT/PS** Mebbe try contacting Gael by e-mail? shrugs .^_^.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 27, 2005 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Muyah Puppyfeetz ]</font>

Hello LDK

I have been reading the posts as it concerns to raiding. I am one of the people who just don't get to play a whole lot, and when I do have a lot of time to play it seems that it is late at night when you all have been tucked up in bed for some time unfortunately. Sundays for me just suck, and rarely do I get more than an hour to play and see you all.

Having said that, I just simply love to play with my friends in the guild and I truely feel at home with this FAMILY.

I feel guilt at not being on to help you all out more often. I tend to not group with you all cause my time is always short on the game and I do not wish to interfere with the play time of my fellow guildies because they have to find another replacement after a short time. I spend most of my time now playing my necromancer Getofmefoot because I still can play and try to enjoy everyones company for the short time thatmy family/life and general commitments allow me.

I feel a little guilty as I was very fortunate to have won a random to recieve a ornate guantlet mold from Sol ro. It is true to what others have said above that I did not take the time to think that there was probably dozens of my friends in the guild that should have recieved such an item before me. For this I appologize to those who could have used the mold.

I put to the guild that on future raids that I can attend I do not wish to roll or bid on any items, I would much rather see my friends recieve rewards for their dedication and efforts towards the elevation of this great guild.

I truely hope that all concerned can find a way to help the officers find the best for this raid system.

Myself.... I just feel great when I get the chance to catch upto my friends, and if I can get to spend some grp or raid time or just run past them and say hello.... it makes it worth the time I have to play even better.

To those who are trying to find the best solution...I probably did not add anything to help...sorry.

I look forward to the times I can see you all.

Remmi

Thuds his axe to his chest and bows low to the LDK..........

Quote:

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REMMI: I feel a little guilty as I was very fortunate to have won a random to recieve a ornate guantlet mold from Sol ro...

...I put to the guild that on future raids that I can attend I do not wish to roll or bid on any items, I would much rather see my friends recieve rewards for their dedication and efforts towards the elevation of this great guild.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">/Salute: You should feel no guilt whatsoever and for you to sacrifice future upgrades because you can not make the Sundays or play as often as some is not an option! I for one have NO doubt that you will earn points for Sundays you can make it and via the other options (or whatever system is choosen) that the officers are still working out.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

Well ok looks like I'll stick around and see how the system works out. Seems that the dkp system I had in my head and the one we are going to use are very different things.

From what I've gotten from talking to Ediena this might just be a more family based system than what I had been using. Its not perfect from what I've heard so far but nothing ever is right off the bat. Hopefully eventually this may just become a good idea and we will smooth out all the kinks in it.

Remmi don't feel bad about winning the gaunts with your short schedule, its exactly that reason that made me post this in the first place. Each of us has as much right to improve ourselves as the other and you won those gaunt fair and square.

So yah I'm here for now and on a side note this is now the 3rd most popular post on our boards...ever. Figures that I would be responsible for making it. Anyways see you all in game for now.

Hi folks [img]smile.gif[/img]
I wont try to answer all of your posts, I think most questions have been answered or will be answered shortly. I was unable to address the issue of not much playing time very well. However, hopefully the task system will give people an idea on something to accomplish during the time they have, and will reward them as well.
Please everyone, keep in mind these are just suggestions, with no testserver lol. We can change these or modify them at any time.
We could do like Subtomic suggested, however i feel some members may want a little more say in what happens than just letting the officers choose.
Legendary Dark Knights will continute to grow and become more powerful through loyalty, performance and effort. The officers and I need a way to distribute loot. A point system to distribute loot (via silent auction) will solve both issues, encouraging participation, and giving us a fair way to distribute. Keep in mind this is not a point race, we are all friends here. This is not to make a competition out of the whole deal but merely a way to keep track of it. If a guildee needs an item more than i do, you'll likely not see me bid at all.....

anyways, i'm going to post the task list I've come up with on a new topic. It is very very far from being complete, but should get us started.
Nothing is set in stone folks, point values, whatever, lets talk about it. However, I'm hoping the task system will go live after raid on Sunday...

Ediena

PS. Gael talk to me!

*agrees with Edi*

I try not to roll on stuff when I know it has a stat or effect that someone else could get much better use from it. Like on the GE raid, 100 mana would have been nice but I all ready have a good range item that helps my nukes and I don't need a gate to DLs. Just something I think you guys should all consider when bidding. If you don't need it that bad you might as well just save your points and let someone more needy have it. =)

...and Remmi, you shouldn't feel bad. I've felt bad because from what I've seen you're always willing to help if you can but just never have the time. It's the thought and effort that counts as far as I care..I was verrry happy to see you get those gloves. I think you've earned em! [img]wink.gif[/img]

And I guess don't worry too bad about the point system..like Edi said it's not set in stone and if you want a chance at changing something input an opinion on the other topic or /tell her. I think it'll be a trial and error thing but we'll find something that works well for us! [img]graemlins/rainbow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sun.gif[/img]

Heya! Just gonna post some stuffs on merit.. if ya want, this is how merit goes: Naggy drops a CoF,! Alrighty, gratz all! send Muyah Tells for <Cloak of Flames>. Muyah tells the channel who wants in. Then ya go Kill Voxx for eyepatch. Send tells to Ediena for <eyepatch>. Ediena would then send the private channel of officers everyone who wanted in. Then if no single person was chosen, a selected random will be rolled between the few. (for multiple drops, have one officer to recieve tells per loot item).
Then they would decide who needs, upgrade, ability to use, contributed on other raids, items won over the raids, ect...
Lets flashback to the beginning of raid, each person is allowed one item from raid, when lesser items drop, people who actually want them, have a MUCH higher chance of getting it, b/c everyone else who wants the bestest stuffs will not roll. Once you win somethin, no trading of roll like, "oh that dropped? i want that, here, u can reroll on this, i want in-(no! nnno!)"
This is little scrambled but frost and ace r over talkling lol, well anywho, just be carefull choosing a loot system, i've been in some guilds and seein DKP tear some apart, feel like merit is best! G'luck with the adventures!