Drummers Nightmare!!

I recently nailed an audition for a drummer position in a very popular local Dance/Wedding band. They work a lot and make tons of money. I'm happy to say I beat out 8 other drummers.

The reason they are firing their existing drummer is because he can't keep time and he plays everything too fast, can't play the right beats for a variety of songs including latin beats.

Problem #1

So after a few rehearsals it becomes abundantly clear this band has been contaminated by this poor drummer. When I started clicking off the first few songs, they didn't know what to do. They told me, Oh, the guitar player starts that song, or the keyboard player starts that song, etc. I'm used to taking control of the timing situation so this is a shock to me, and some insight into the beginnings of their timing problems.

I finally convince them to let me start the songs with a count, and they all fart all over the place trying to keep the time with me; Not Good!!! They are otherwise good musicians, their timing just needs a solid timekeeper. We finally get past this issue.

Problem #2
Songs are too fast, songs are too slow, the female singer wants them danceable, the musicians want me to keep the same pace as the old drummer, I want to play everything to the original song. This is driving me crazy and I don't have a clear solution to this one. I did my homework; I went out and video taped this band with the old drummer, transcribed the video to MP3 tracks, then I assigned a BPM to each song as they do it, then I did the same with the original song and recorded the BPM made a chart and showed these people the difference. They shrugged their shoulders and said; "well we just play it at the speed that feels good to us" UGH!!!!

What do you guys recommend I do with these brainiacs so I can compromise; appease them, but also keep my sanity and the discipline I need.

Regards,
Al

Well, there are a lot of guys here with way more experience than me on this kind of thing.

But as I read your post, it strikes me that you have to be careful that you don't try to rebuild the city in a day.

You say they are a very popular band -- must be so for somereason -- and the new guy can really get on the old guys' nerves real fast if he is the expert on all.

That said -- you can begin to work them toward a more disciplined beat with time and professionalism.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 03, 2005 09:11 PM: Message edited by: MRhet ]</font>

Well first of all I would like to say that I sympathise with your situation. As all other drummers here will...
I think you have done some great steps in making the situation better, especially listening to some of their older gigs. Although it's hard to understand you might just have to realize that they are not as professional as you had first thought.
Some words of caution from me:
You are the newest member and it's important to make a good impression, which involves not wanting to control everything the first time you walk in the room. Have a sit-down with them and maybe ask all members what they think their role in the band should be. Then you could discretely add that you got the gig because they were complaining about the old drummer who couldn't keep time. Suggest that you would like to introduce some new methods to improve their time. Again, don't tell them they are terrible, but just imply better time is the last missing link for them to become really solid. Really suck up to 'em, its bound to work! What I mean is don't insult them but introduce change slowly...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 03, 2005 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Suspiria ]</font>

I have been in similar situations before. My best advice would be to make the leader comfortable. Even if the tempos are all over the place, try to make them feel good no matter where they go. I've played a ton of "piano bar" type gigs that are like that. I try to pretend I am "midi"ed to the guys. Sure, it is not the conventional time keeper role that I am used to in most bands, but I try to treat it as a challenge in itself to sound tight with them. The group just wants to be comfortable. If the grooves on the original tunes don't work at these tempos, just work out new ones that are appropriate to the song. They hired you out of those 8 guys because of what you can do to work with them. Have fun with it. Eventually you all will work it out. Just try to stay open. Hope this helps! Later

Tough situation. I think you need to be upfront with these guys and see what they want, come up with a plan and then stick to it.

I've been given a tempo. Stayed with it and then criticised for NOT speeding up with the lead vocalist, who latter said "you mean you're going to stay at the same tempo I counted off...through the whole song??!!!"

Another director, warned me not to let any of the songs rush. So, I stayed with the tempo he counted off. Then he proceeded to do this rapid accelerando thing that resulted in a train wreck on stage. He then complained that I wasn't following him.

I've had one "leader" tell me to speed up during a song and another "leader" tell me to slow down...at the same moment!!!

I've had one leader/vocalist adjust the tempo of the sequencer in the middle of a song, twice!

Wow, these are painfull memories.....

I like the idea of using a metronome with pre-agreed-upon tempos. It takes a certain amount of pressure off of the drummer.

Having read some of the replies I guess there's another solution, not sure if thats what you've been doing already:
If any discussion to settle the matter fails, then perhaps you should change to only using the metronome to count in. You'll get a feel for the tempo that you agreed upon earlier and as the song progresses you give the other guys a chance to "breath". If you speed up/slow down, so be it. That's only natural. In fact, if you learn to control it, you're live performance will only benefit. It adds another dimension to it.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 03, 2005 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Suspiria ]</font>

Quote:

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Originally posted by Andy Vermiglio:

I've had one "leader" tell me to speed up during a song and another "leader" tell me to slow down...at the same moment!!!

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL!

Who signs the checks?

Give him/her what they ask for with a smile, or they'll find someone who will.

this has, and sometimes still is a bone of contention of mine. i've had many scraps over the years over tempo and feel.

i personally feel a band is built from the ground up. starting from the drummer.

there is a reason there is a conductor in an orchestra, all 25 or so member follow him or her for the time.

a great orchestra has killer players, they all have great time, but for cohesiveness they all follow the conductor.

to me, the drummer provides this role in a contemporary situation.

the best way i've found to deal with it. is get them, whoever it may be, to pick the tempo while all members are there. write it down and count off everything from that list with a rythm watch.

i my self don't care if it's too fast or too slow. but i can't stand speeding up or slowing down in mid flight. if they pick the tempo, they usually deal with it better.

also recording things often is great to explain your point of veiw on time and feel. if they don't hear it they won't get the picture because they are in the moment.

with out playback it's your feel vs theirs. and you can't win with,the concept of how "i" feel at the time is more important than how you feel.

as well, some gigs are great musical experiences, and some are just to host a party, get people laid, and sell beer.

it can be hard to find both elements sometimes.

it's good to take a step back now and then and look at the overall picture of a band.

sometimes it's just a party band and there is nothing you can do about it.

sometimes realising you just have to go with the flow makes life alot easier.


good luck


chris perra

Mind if I chime in here?....I've had some similar experiences - haven't we all? The most poignant one though for me was when I was called on to keep a drummer's seat warm, whilst he was treated for cancer(!)The band had been together for over 32 years on and off - a 10 piece soul set up, who had been playing together basically since they were kids.I'd worked with the bass player in other bands, so when the need arose for a sub, he wheeled me in.The material was a dream to play - soul and R'n' B classics, rock stuff, Chicago & BS & Tears tracks. The buzz for me was incredible, playing with a brass section, as my previous band was a classic three piece. The
problem became apparent at the first rehearsal - as I counted off the first song( a 70's British jazz/rock song called 'Vehicle') which has some tricky syncopated stabs in the intro. A proper train wreck ensued every time we started it, tempers were starting to fray, until the guitarist stepped in with the observation: "it's John playing it right lads - we're the ones making a bollox of it!!!" Then it all became clear: the absentee drummer was, how can I put it tactfully, more gifted in the social aspects of the band, and his actual drumming skills weren't
the most inspiring. The dilemma for me was, because of the tragic nature of his absence,I couldn't really force the band to play the songs in the 'proper' way, as, God willing, he'd be back behind his kit, fit and well in short order.I approached it by playing more in the style they were used to on those songs where it was an obvious issue, and the more striaghtforward stuff took care of itself
As it turned out, sadly, my stay with the band lasted over two years, as his treatment seemed not to work, with the inevitable tragic end which finally came. He came to see the band a couple of times when he was strong enough, sitting in for a couple of songs(this has to be one of the most moving things I've ever witnessed, and to hear the band, who by now had adapted to my style of playing, try to go back to the old way, was equally upsetting), and he actually had tears in his eyes when we helped him off my kit, and said to me 'the band sounds f*****g aamazing with a real drummer' (gulp!!!)
We played a few gigs after he'd gone, but their hearts weren't really in it - he'd been one of the three founding members, and the band folded.
Funnily enough - just this week, I had a very Blues Brothers call from the bass player, and we all start rehearsals next week for a grand reunion gig...I'm really looking forward to it.

I'm in a band...don't particularly like the music...have some tempo and arrangement issues. I just try to make it the best I can and roll with the punches. Get the Bass player on your side and you can steer the bus from time to time

Here's my advice:

For the songs you start, have the band dictate the tempo they want. Write it down. Play it that tempo.

For the songs other people start- gtr, piano, follow them on the gig. In rehearsal, make a note of the tempos of these songs and then practice them on your own time to get used to playing them at that tempo.

Even though you're just trying to get started on the right foot, and maybe trying to bring the band to "the next level", my experience (thrice)is that this won't work. If they're time is bad now, it will always be bad...and you won't be able to change that just by being a great drummer with great time. Get used to it. You can't teach an old dog new tricks...any attempt to do it will make you look like a control freak, (if you don't look like one already)

As long as you know what to expect, you won't be disappointed.

Play the songs at the tempo they want to play them. It's that simple. If you keep having these feelings for their way of doing it, then you will be out a gig. BTW, just because you post here doesn't mean that they don't know how you feel. They probably already do. Music has a way of communicating emotions non verbally.
Chill out, play the gig their way. Maybe if you are with them a while, and learn new songs, then you can count those off.

If you don't NEED this gig, I would walk. It's one thing to play songs at inappropriate tempos, but it's another thing entirely to be adjusting tempos several times during the same song. That kind of stuff will screw up your playing for a long time.

Some good responses, so no need to elaborate w any of my experiences [let you guys handle it] ;c)...as I think I've experienced every thing you guys have mentioned...I was chuckling to myself at EVERY situation Andy listed... [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] ;c)

One sit I'll never forget - I worked w a self-taught but nevertheless quite talented frontman [gtrst/voc/dancer/sequencer/& some kybds] back in the early 90s...he wanted to cover the DLRoth tune "Goin' Crazy" [Vai, Sheehan, GBiss]...he started the tune [2 bar gtr riff] by ear & did not know where the one was in the riff [the riff started on the & of the 1]. It trained wrecked every time at rehearsal...I tried to give them a 5 quarters count in ["1, 2, 3, 4, 1-"]...he almost wanted to fistfight because I tried to tell him where the 1 was...so that we could all start the tune TOGETHER & IN TIME...know whut a mean?! [The PURPOSE of music / time]...def pride factor, there...so, aft countless tries, he ditches the tune.

It's hilarious when a group hires a drummer, then certain members or everyone wants to deny the drummer HIS [or her] JOB by wanting to control the tempo themselves...the reason they hired them in the FIRST place...oh, brother...enough already... [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img]

I know...everyone is a closet drummer, & thinks it's a walk in the park...no off, but sometimes the only thing worse than having to play w a drummer, is having to play w other instrumentalists! [or vocalists, too!]... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I hope those tempo-nazi's [who really have no reason to be] read these [unless, of course, they have a great concept of time themselves. You know who you are! You're a joy to play with, & diamonds in the ruff!] ;cP

Some obviously good advice by you folks in here. Plan out the tempos & COUNT-INS w the entire band in advance is a good start...but it IS often a delicate procedure sometimes when joining a new, pre-existing outfit, isn't it.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 04, 2005 02:03 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

i would suggest the gradual approach. play the songs at there tempo in the beginning, and over time (weeks/months) slowly rein in the tempo closer and closer to where it should be. the band seems 'shell shocked' by your intsant 'real tempo fix'. thats too much of a change for them 'overnight'.
my 2 cents

I had to deal with this with a cover band I played in as well. They had a few good drummers in the past who didn't play the tunes note for note, didn't play them in the tempos from the original recordings, but had great feel. Unfortunately, when I heard them with one of their "feel" drummers, they had the tune slowed down so much that I thought it lost its groove. When I started playing with them, I got the tempos from all of the recordings and started the tunes with my click as my reference. They had trouble with this and I just stated to them, "Look, if it was a hit at this tempo, would it be wrong to keep it there?" They adjusted to it reluctantly, and I recorded one of our gigs to see how everything was going. The keyboard player (the one guy in the band who was actually good, but a raging alcoholic who never practiced or learned lyrics) stated that one of the tunes we played was too fast, faster than the recording. I had my mini-disc recorder and the cd with the original tune on it and put them up against each other in my car with him sitting in and listening. Same tempo. He shut up about tempos after that. The best night I had with them was with my click and some really huge sticks so they could hear me. My time never wavered from when I started the song, and everything grooved for a change. They tried to speed up or slow down songs (sometimes 2 diff. people in the band wanting to do each in one song!), but I didn't move.

I eventually quit that band because they only played about one or two gigs every 2 months, and they never practiced until the week of the gig. They spent the whole practice re-teaching everyone the songs. What a waste of time. Plus, the leader was really verbally abusive about everyone in the band's groove, especially me. He thought he had more "soul & groove" than the rest of us, and said that, "yeah, we're all white, trying to play some of these disco and groove songs, and that we need to listen to the songs and try to learn feel. That band really F'd up my feel for a while and I had to try like hell to get it back.

Good luck with it! If you have any other bands in your area that are doing the same thing and have it down, show your current band what they are doing vs. what your band is doing and you would like to get this band just as tight.

I think that they would all like to play in a good band, hopefully they'll want to be great!

Mike

I had the same problem with a band I subbed in for 6 months.

The fact is you're not going to tell them anything.

I just took in my handy dr. beat and told them to start off the song. Once I tapped in their tempo, I stopped them and asked them if they thought the tempo I had tapped was right. Once they said yes, I plugged the Dr. Beat into the PA, and we played.

The were falling all over themselves left and right. After that one song, they finally said, "whoa, I guess our tempo is bad!"

The idea here is to let them discover it themselves, cause these guys I was with were sure that they were fine until the had a metronome tell them otherwise. It all turned around then, and they even asked me to be their full time drummer, but I declined.

Same here. I quit all of the "toxic" groups I was playing with and I've never played better...(after getting my"feel" back).

It really is true you can get to the point where you don't know "which way is up" when they start telling you to slow down and speed up at the same time. Practicing has been very therapeutic for me.

Back to you- sorry...

Wow, I'm so glad you all shared your experiences with me. I don't feel so 'Alone'. You all have given me great advice.

I have used a few tools and some of your advice to make everyone comfortable. I have been able to get everyone to agree to let me count off the marjority of songs and I have proven to them in rehearsal this will work well. Except for a few songs that are started by guitar or keyboards (You can call me Al, for instance).

Secondly, on the tempo issue, I decided to follow the instructions of the leader who is (cringe and Ouch!) a female singer who says she knows what the crowd wants to dance to. The guys feel comfortable with these speeds as they have been performing this way for three years, so far be it for me to shake things up.

Tonight is my debut with this band playing in a huge club that usually has 200-300 people on the dance floor. I'm very excited, but also very confident in my abilities and preparation. I've got backup bass drum and snare heads, my gig bag is set with tools, string, springs, etc. I've got my drum rug ready as well as water, towel, extra sticks (6 new pairs), etc.

I've also decided to try to play a little ahead in the pocket tonight. So not really accelerating the tempo of these songs, but hopefully give the sensation of hearing the beat a little before the slot time.

Wish me luck and I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Regards All
Al

Alright Al.........how'd it go??

Sorry for the slooowness of my response....

Well, my first 3 gigs were rediculous. I had the keyboard player telling me to play faster, the leader/girl singer telling me to slow down, the lead guitar player constantly playing faster than me causing me to sound slow, the leader/girl singer telling me to go faster!!!

Then I had everyone starting songs at different speeds !!!

After the 3rd gig I told them that they don't need a drummer, they need f___ therapy ALL of them. I also read them the riot act and told them that if I'm not the timekeeper of this band then I'm OUT!!!

The 4th gig, I took control and kicked F___ ass. I started all the songs and each speed was maintained by me!! It seems these people cannot keep time. They told me that I WAS THE PROBLEM!!! Well, I really took offence to that, so during one rehearsal, I put on the METRONOME and they were shocked and awed to find out I was dead on and they were all drifting all over the place. Nuff said, they now trust and respect me and I am the undisputed timekeeper of this band of crazies.

Is there a lesson here? I dunno? Is there some pain free technique I could of used to avoid the above? I don't think so.

It is NOT easy being a drummer, and I think that's why I love it so much. YOU NEED TO TAKE CONTROL! That is the moral of this story.

REgards All
Al

Wow. That's pretty shocking...but good news, nonetheless. A victory for all drummers...rejoice!

I hope you're right - hopefully the gigs go well with you in charge of the tempos, but after reading them the riot act there's always the chance they may be looking for a replacement behind your back. Best of luck.

V Drummer is right but part of me thinks:

"So what if they replace you? Let someone else deal with their problem!"

I'm a little late chiming in on this one, but I've had similar experiences myself, although not over timing.

I LOVE this quote:

Who signs the checks?
Give him/her what they ask for with a smile, or they'll find someone who will.

I COMPLETELY agree....but ONLY because it's a cover band. As you can see in my signature, Peter Erskine's FIRST rule of drumming is "Music should be fun." It's hard to choose between art and money, but if you play your cards right, it's possible to find a happy medium. My primary band is a straight-ahead Pop/Rock project with about 40% originals and 60% covers. I've been lucky in that their previous drummer was so bad (think tennis shoes in a dryer...) when I stepped in, they listened to pretty much everything I had to say, especially about timing. But, as you will have in any situation we have our differences from time to time. The way I've been able to remedy the frustrations with "the wife band", is that I went out and started a side project with our equally-frustrated bass player. ("The mistress band", so to speak!) We found people from other bands in our situation that felt stifled and wanted to cut loose a bit, and it's GREAT for cleansing the palate!

I'd say the quote I pasted above is dead-on: if the gig pays well, hang onto it and find a way to keep yourself interested. Then, on the side, even if it's only every couple weeks or a Sunday-night gig at a total dive for no money, go out and have fun with "the mistress". It's been working wonders for me, and has basically saved my "marriage"!

Good luck, hope it works out for you!

-Pete

Classic. I had a few gigs with a group. The singer was a night mare. The keyboard player cued me for a tag ending. We ended, then the singer starting F-in off at me cause I messed up, he said we were'nt supposed to end, and it was my fault. The keyboard player tried to tell him, but the singer didn't hear it cause he was in a rage.

The one thing I regret was that I finished the gig.
Next time a situation happens like this, I will promptly start packing up my drums and leave.

pgroover, did you post this on remo? or did i read it on here before?? o this would be my first post

the funniest (worst) thing that I got when I was in a band was " so how many seconds do I hold that note?"

also apparently rimshots mean cross sticks, rolls mean those slow single stroke decending on the toms and and a "skank" is not the one drop but 1 and three on the kick and 2 and 4 on the snare...

that was before... luckily i play with better players now... much better.
however!!
Now days i get " do this" " i was doing that" "no you werent" "YES I WAS!!!" "well do it better then!"
or Hey I want this super fast half time shuffle that im sure you cant handle but you need to do it anyway cuz this song calls for it. (no it doesnt)

i think the worst thing was people trying to convince me that Hey YA starts on the 1... no it dosnt!! the dude says 1 2 3 ugh!! and the ugh is the new one!!! but no... plus no one ever admits it when i point something out. sixteenth notes in two note groupings are somehow long triplets too....

also another one is me saying " hey i want to play this!" "no it doesnt sound good " few months later" hey why dont you play this?" "thats what I said several weeks ago" "no you didnt"

i will probably go on and on... im especialy grumpy about stuff like that recently.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Ruairidi:
pgroover, did you post this on remo? or did i read it on here before?? o this would be my first post

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nah, I've never posted this anywhere else.

This thread reminded me of something that happened over twenty years ago.

A drummer friend asked me to sub for him on a gig he was subbing on. He claimed it was a rock gig, he wasn't feeling well, talk to So-and-So when I got there and explain. I arrived at the worst dive located in the buttcrack of a podunk town. A guy at the door was all smiles, "Hey, welcome to the club." I told him I was looking for So-and-So and he said that was him. His smile faded when he realized I wasn't a patron but a drummer taking another drummer's place. As excited as I was about my first sub I immediately felt a bad vibe.

After the opening ZZ Top song the band went to straight country. I wasn't very experienced then and had very little concept of western swing. By the third song I realized it wasn't the gig my friend made it out to be. So-and-So was the bassist; he and the guitarist were only good enough to be playing to an empty house in a dump like that. Drumming for them was torture. The only people there were a few friends of mine who'd driven out to see that travesty.

A friend of mine sat-in on bass in the second set and I let So-and-So play my drums. When I sat back down So-and-So handed me the sticks and said, "I don't know how to play them. Either." I ignored him, soldiered on and finished the gig like I thought a professional should.

But it wasn't worth the money. Ever since that night I made up my mind to IMMEDIATELY WALK if insulted like that again.

I'm no longer friends with the drummer who knowingly misled me about the nature of the gig, but my western swing has improved a hundredfold. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 25, 2005 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Five Eight ]</font>

Here are a few thoughts that may help:

- Play it like it's your gig. People who make themselves feel good by picking on others sense their insecurity and jump on them. If you play the gig like it's yours - which, for the moment, it is -- they won't sense that element and will behave.
- They called you. Ergo, they want you to play it like you hear it. If they don't, they shouldn't call you. In the meanwhile, you're there and this is how it'll be done. Next?
- No one respects weakness, particularly in a drummer. Loud, confidant and wrong is usually better than correct and timid. Go for the throat. And don't let go.

Great advice Riddum...

"Go for the throat". It's always important to be confident and solid, but make sure you retain in your mind that there is a fine line between confidence and cockiness...

MP