V-Drums TD-20

I was at Turnkey in London yesterday buying some bits and bobs and had an opportunity to play around with some of their electronic kits. They had the new(ish) TD20 and I was completely blown away by the sounds and the touch of it. The cymbals were great and the snare drum was picking up all the ghost notes etc.

Anyone have any longer experience of this both from a practice and recording stand point. I have the TD8 and I don't really use it anymore because it was affecting my snare drum technique when I switched back to real drums. I now use a combo of DDrums and Vdrums for 'quiet' practice.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by GaryL:
I was at Turnkey in London yesterday buying some bits and bobs and had an opportunity to play around with some of their electronic kits. They had the new(ish) TD20 and I was completely blown away by the sounds and the touch of it. The cymbals were great and the snare drum was picking up all the ghost notes etc.

Anyone have any longer experience of this both from a practice and recording stand point. I have the TD8 and I don't really use it anymore because it was affecting my snare drum technique when I switched back to real drums. I now use a combo of DDrums and Vdrums for 'quiet' practice.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You said "I was completely blown away by the sounds and the touch of it" and then you said you use ddrum; ddrum module or just trigger ?

Hard to believe someone who have ddrum module can be blown away by the sound of TD 20 [img]eek.gif[/img]

I've had both. ddrum3 (the discontinued one that everyone wants) and the TD-10. We have the TD-20 at the store. The ddrum is simple to use, with a bare bones feature set and works reliably, but the TD-20 has all the bells and whistles - though you currently can't add sounds or sample and does much, much more. Maybe that's what he liked about it. Since the the ddrum2 is long gone, the TD-20 is the current state of the art.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Vdrummer:
but the TD-20 has all the bells and whistles

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes if you like bells and whistles Don't buy a ddrum, TD 20 is perfect for that, but he said he was surprised by the sound of TD 20, maybe they are better then TD 10 but compare to ddrum... [img]eek.gif[/img]

I`m from Sweden and have had all the Clavia Ddrums models.

Now i have the td-20 and i love it madly.
I teach a lot on them and done some work in my studio
with them.
If you have money, trust you feeling and jump ond Td -20 train
Hell even my tinutus loves them [img]smile.gif[/img]

Jan Jansson / Sweden

Quote:

---

Originally posted by jan jansson:
I`m from Sweden and have had all the Clavia Ddrums models.

Now i have the td-20 and i love it madly.
I teach a lot on them and done some work in my studio
with them.
If you have money, trust you feeling and jump ond Td -20 train
Hell even my tinutus loves them [img]smile.gif[/img]

Jan Jansson / Sweden

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting point of view from someone who had both, what make you change from ddrum to TD-20 ?

For several years, I did all the electronic drum/percussion reviews for Electronic Musician magazine, and have done electronic drum reviews for MD too. I enjoyed the ddrum3 when I had it but it and the ddrum4 have some limitations.

ddrum is not stereo, or even pseudo (via reverb as the TD-20 is) and the samples have some compression to economize space. Their sounds are only as good as their samples. The ddrum4 has some samples they created from their great endorsers which are very good. Most have too much reverb for my purposes and that cannot be removed, since it's part of the sound. In the studio, you're better off with a dry sound and letting the studio put a high quality verb like a lexicon or something on it. You can truncated the sound (shorten the decay) but the verb will still be part of the sound. You can check out their demo's at their site. Personally, I find the demos to sound like an electronic kit, even when they don't intend them to. But all electronic kits suffer from that.

The TD-20 has things designed to create more natural rolls (doesn't entirely work), positional timbre changes and many dozens of other features, clicks, backing tracks, sequencers, to make it more realistic than just a sample playback unit, as the ddrum is. A big problem with the ddrum unit is that it has a very limited amount of memory (sounds), compared to the Roland unit. For those reasons the Roland is the SOTA drum brain. Go to a Roland drum clinic and you'll probably end up singing the same song we are. I do think ddrum makes the best acoustic triggers.

Brad

If i'm going to drop down $4k - $5k for a set of electronic drums like the TD-20, I'm going to have to be able to play them live. I just don't think Electronic drums can cut through a mix in a live band situation clubbing and doing weddings, like an acoustic set can. I'd have to use real cymbals.

You would need a separate system for the drums and couldn't go through the main mix because you would drop out when a vocal smothered you. That means you have to now bring your own amp and speakers in addition to real cymbals and then your vdrums. That's a lot of equipment to carry around for a gigging musicians without roadies.

Al

I agree with some of your points. I'd use real cymbals too, and did when I used the ddrum3 in the studio. I also made a point of avoided fast rolls that might have that machine gun electronic kit sound. In a small band that brings it's own PA one of those Roland monitor systems they designed for electronic drums would be plenty and are actually very compact. The rest of the band might not be able to hear you that well though. An JBL EON or Mackie 450 (self powered monitor/FOH speakers) could also work.

That's why I only play acoustic drums. However, I've seen a few drummers who used the TD-10 live and through a club system (with tons of power and subs) and it cut as well or better than a well miked kit in the same venue. I've also been toying with the idea of using IEM's and a BD trigger that would provide me with as much bass drum sound as I want in my mix. I wouldn't send it to FOH and would only use it for monitoring. In a loud club, I mainly need to hear BD in my mix.

I tested the triggering speed on the original td-7 which was as bad as 14 milliseconds. My ddrum 3 was consistently around 3 milliseconds. The second gen TD-7's were around 8, and the TD-10 was under 5.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Vdrummer:
[QB]Their sounds are only as good as their samples.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"Only" ? [img]biggrin.gif[/img] , i guess it's personal taste so the best is listen and compare for each : http://www.clavia.se/MP3s/index.htm#ddrum

and the demo on Roland site

Personnaly i isten lot of Roland, see lot of vid available on Roland forum, downloaded divx version of the Omar Hakim DVD using TD-20 for the pleasure to see/ear Omar and i never ear any Roland sounding like a real drum

For me Roland sound like a electronic drum with lot of feature and gadget and ddrum is Just a plug & play who sound like real accoustic ( i agree cymbal are the weak point, cymbal have too many nuance...)

Quote:

---

The ddrum4 has some samples they created from their great endorsers which are very good. Most have too much reverb for my purposes and that cannot be removed, since it's part of the sound. In the studio, you're better off with a dry sound and letting the studio put a high quality verb like a lexicon or something on it.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tue, i only use dry sound

Quote:

---

A big problem with the ddrum unit is that it has a very limited amount of memory (sounds), compared to the Roland unit. For those reasons the Roland is the SOTA drum brain.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes only 8 Mb [img]redface.gif[/img] , you can store on ddrum module just 2 full Signature kit at one time but i prefer have just 1 kit who sound Real rather then 2000 of Roland who sound fake to Me [img]wink.gif[/img]

Quote:

---

Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
It is also a lot noisier than the the TD20, which is silent, completely with Spdif outs.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess you talk about old cast precision pad ?

ddrum use mesh head pad like Roland since years now

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Vdrummer:
[QB]I also made a point of avoided fast rolls that might have that machine gun electronic kit sound.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You talk about TD-20 or ddrum ? never ear machine gun effect with ddrum

The ddrum4 4 sounds like crap compared to the td20.
There is only enough memory for one complete set of multisample toms and other stuff. It is also a lot noisier than the the TD20, which is silent, completely with Spdif outs.

The Roland cymbals are much better. The roland bass drum triggers work WAY better with the Roland, compared to the ddrum4 and ddrum triggers.
Sure, the ddrum4 may trigger faster, but the TD20 is quick, especially if you turn off some of the processing. I keep the EQ and compressor on---not much latency.
The ddrum4 is based on mid 90's technology. Most of the sounds suck. The TD12 is better than the ddrum4 as well. I could go on all day.

I have both kits. The Roland can sound just as "realistic" as the ddrum4, but better. Sure, you can download all the sounds you want. You can make your opinions based on the internet. Mine are based on that I have both kits at my home. I am selling the drrum4 for 1000 dollars. Any takers?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by donu:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
It is also a lot noisier than the the TD20, which is silent, completely with Spdif outs.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess you talk about old cast precision pad ?

ddrum use mesh head pad like Roland since years now</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I mean the audio outputs.

Yes, the ddrum and Roland are both subject to the machine gun effect. The ddrum units retrigger the same sample from its beginning with each stroke of a roll, which is not the way a drum actually sounds during a roll. The wave form (timbre) changes as a drum is struck repeatedly and rapidly. The Roland have somewhat less of this problem because they've actually tried to remedy it. I think Roland retriggers the sample after it's beginning, truncating the transient a bit to make it sound more realistic - but this is a guess. You should read Norm Weinberg's review of the TD-20 if you're determined not to believe us. I like ddrum gear, but the ddrum4 was a feature and technological step down from the ddrum3, which they discontinued since it was very pricey and sold so poorly (like Korg's Wavedrum).

A state of the art unit would trigger fast like the ddrum (anything over 3 milliseconds is audible to a good musician), have a click, reverb and perhaps some bells and whistles (like the rhythm coach of their TD-3) like the Roland TD-20, a good selection of samples, would allow users to load their own samples in popular formats and have expandable memory up to 1-4 Gigabytes. Units that can stream samples like Tascam Gigasampler have some massive kits with 8 or more samples that switch to reflect different dynamics, right or left hand strokes, position on the drum head, which far exceed what is capable from (as FlamTriplet accurately describes) 1990's technology.

Quote:

---

You should read Norm Weinberg's review of the TD-20 if you're determined not to believe us.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'am not determined to not believe you i just prefer have less bells and whistles and more choose of real sound (i can choose between Yamaha, Noble & Coley, Tama, etc.. i can even choose for Tama what head and what microphone was used to record the sample ( and not electronically trying to modify a sound )

My post was most to try to inform some here (you are right ddrum didn't make enough information...)who maybe wanted to buy a electronic drum rather then convince you or FlamTriplet, you prefer Roland that's you personal taste [img]wink.gif[/img]

Quote:

---

A state of the art unit would trigger fast like the ddrum (anything over 3 milliseconds is audible to a good musician), have a click, reverb and perhaps some bells and whistles (like the rhythm coach of their TD-3) like the Roland TD-20, a good selection of samples, would allow users to load their own samples in popular formats and have expandable memory up to 1-4 Gigabytes. Units that can stream samples like Tascam Gigasampler have some massive kits with 8 or more samples that switch to reflect different dynamics, right or left hand strokes, position on the drum head, which far exceed what is capable from (as FlamTriplet accurately describes) 1990's technology.[/QB]

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Armadillo the new owner of ddrum said on ddrum forum that a ddrum 5 is on the way so let's hope he will do all that, Hart also have a project of a module with capacity to use all Fantastic DVD sample available today like DCFH.. we'll see [img]tongue.gif[/img]

It's always a matter of opinion. Like I said, I like the ddrum stuff, it's built like a tank, is easy to use and works well. I do think anyone in the market should read all the published reviews to get the most informed opinions available. I have a problem with all electronic drumkits - none are totally convincing to my ears, unless the drummer avoids rolls, dynamics, etc. I too hope the ddrum5 has a lot of memory, supports user sampling, and some new features.

Quote:

---

- none are totally convincing to my ears, unless the drummer avoids rolls, dynamics, etc

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I just don't know about this. I understand everyone has his/her own opinion. I don't have that problem with my Yamahas -- and I have played the Rolands a number of times (in stores), and that isn't what I hear.

I've used electronics successfully in the studio, but I made a point of playing simpler to disguise I was using them. Most of the time it's pretty obvious when I hear a demo that was played with electronic drums.

Hi pgroover. I bought the Roland TD20 around ten months ago and all I can say is that you will have no worries with this kit. I have been playing now for 22 years and this is the best set up I have ever had. I make my living as a drummer in Lanzarote and play live and with backing tracks in different gigs and regardles of what I do the kit performs amazingly. As for the cymbals, I have put my Zildjian set to rest as the V-cymbals are fantastic. You will not be dissapointed and the fact that you can change all the settings for each and individual pad helps so much too. I do however use my own PA, the HK Audio LUCAS 1000 and yes its more to carry about and it does take me around 45 mins to set up but it is WELL worth it. Good luck with whatever you choose.

Hi Vdrummer:
What kind of kit are you using in the studio as Its a shame that you need to play simpler to make it sound concincing. I use the Roland TD-20 live and I have also recorded with it and I can honestly say that I never or have had to hold back. I have played the Roland TD-8 for a while and I must admit that with that kit, I could not get into playing well as the response and feel just was not there. However the TD-20 lets you play as you always have. I dont think I would ever go back now to a normal kit. I have also read other people talking about not being able to do rolls or dynamics, all I can say to that is that I can easily. Try the TD-20 if you can and let me know your opinion.

I've played electronic drums on dozens of projects, demo's live and have owned a variety of rigs. Don't get me wrong, when I mentioned dynamics, I was referring to units that switch between different samples. That I can usually hear as not sounding real. So if a keyboardist has you trigger his sampler and it triggers different samples depending on velocity, I find it unnatural sounding. In a track, sometimes it's not so objectionable.

The ddrum3 I was referring to, was fine with dynamics, as are the Roland units which just use one sample. However, if you have a big verby sound, playing it lightly sounds fake to me. The Roland stuff has a reverb which helps over the ddrum sounds that sample the verb into the sound.

Rolls are still a problem with all electronic kits to my ears, but the TD-20 is better than any others. I played the newest TD-12 last week, and it's cool but the rolls still don't sound like an acoustic drum to me. The pads are great and trigger well.

Personally, I'd rather use an acoustic kit and mike it, if given the choice. But often, that's not an option.