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Ugh,
Now my band mates are complaining they can't hear my snare well enough. They want me to hit it harder!
I'm playing a DW 5 1/4 x 14" Maple with Evans G1 heads using Hickory 5A's.
I really don't want to play louder. It's not my style and it HURTS!!
Should I play harder, use bigger sticks, MIC my snare, or tell them to lower their volume!!!!!
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 25, 2005 10:41 AM: Message edited by: pgroover ]</font>
Are you playing with Rimshots?
1. If you can use bigger sticks on a metal drum, I'd try that.
2. Mic your snare and run it through the PA.
3. Find another band.
It's funny, I was just thinking about this. (playing loud enough or too loud) I saw a local Los Angeles band called Powder last week (killer band btw) and the drummer was not hitting harder than average. He just let the PA do the work and it sounded great. He was playing solid, but not slamming.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 25, 2005 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Derek DeFields ]</font>
What type of music are you playing? Rim shots usually cut through in a lot of those type of situations. Is this in a live' situation?
BTW Derek did you get my PM ??
Since I'm in a Wedding/Dance Band, the variety of the covers we play range from Hella Good to the Chicken Dance to At Last, etc!!! Gulp!?#@
I don't play rimshots except for certain accents. Are you suggesting I play rimshots ALL THE TIME?
As far as a metal snare, I used to own a Chad Smith Pearl Metal and I hated the sound of it. It just didn't do anything for me.
The other alternative which I thought about doing is going to a more OPEN STYLE rather than CROSS STICKING which would let me use my stronger right arm/wrist to bang the snare. This admittedly would require a lot of retraining on certain beats. I already play this way on Disco and Funk beats.
We can't possibly know EXACTLY what you need. We can only make suggestions. YOU have to decide what's appropriate.
Welcome to the world of being a professional musician. Sink or swim. But have fun doing it.
Interesting comment about playing cross-handed and the volume of the left hand on the snare. In addition to the many good suggestions here, you may want to try raising your bottom high hat cymbal to give you more room to move your snare hand on the back beat.
Along these lines, when playing the backbeat you may want to use the Weckl approach where you're doing a form of the initial Moeller stroke for both hands. This will definitly increase the stick height and loudness of the snare hits.
(Don't forget to wear your earplugs!!)
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 25, 2005 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Andy Vermiglio ]</font>
if your use to certain sticks..dont change em.....just flip em over to but ends and adjust the snare or yourself so you can play a good rimshot without using too much force.
Watch Liberty DeVitto play. He's got a huge backbeat and it doesn't seem to have hurt him. He uses a bit of the Moeller technique.
Using the MT allows you to get voulme and looks and also not beat yourself up as much.
With respect to PJGroover's supplementary question, which seemed to get hidden in the barrage of responses, "Do you mean I should play rimshots all the time?", the answer is emphatically YES. All your gear is good, including your sticks, and it has nothing to do with the Moeller stroke or any of the other stuff (with the greatest respect to the other respondents). If you want your snare drum to be heard, especially unmiked, but also miked so that it sounds authoritative, use rimshots on all backbeats, every single last one. I guarantee that you will: (1) Discover new sounds from your existing drums, (2) learn how to quell extraneous overtones by varying your touch and the spot where you come down on the rim (see * below) and (3) be heard down the block. Don't want such projection? Just lighten up on the rimshot....but still hit one for backbeats.
(*)Incidentally, for backbeats (as opp. to gracenotes and the like) ensure your place on the snare drum rim does not vary. Usually when bands talk about a drummer being too quiet, it's the snare drum that's the culprit....all these unsure, glancing blows, or dead-center-of-the-head strokes. Rimshots are the heart and soul of backbeat drumming? Heard the Bonham outtakes going around? Rimshots.
This suggestion will help you but it will take a week or so of practice to get your rimshot in order, and a lifetime to perfect it. At first, you're going to be faced with a lot of weird overtones. Don't let them discourage you.
WB
how much muffleing do you use on your snare?
i think that if you just hit the center of the drum all the time you can only get so loud. even if you hit as hard as you can all it does is choke out the drum once you hit a certain volume.
rimshots can be used all the time at any volume if you work on it.
if you need more backbeat height try moving your hihat hand forward a bit by extending you elbow forward and this lets you snare hand clear the hihat hand and you can play as loud as you want. just watch the hihat thumb. it's a bitch if you accidentaly hit it.
good luck
chris perra
Is your snare tuning in the medium to medium low range? If it is, they may be referring to frequency rather than dynamic. I know that I was having the opposite problem until I tuned down. I played at the same physical volume and with the same strengh, but everyone stopped complaining. Maybe that will help.
Take Care. F.S.
As far as 'it hurts!' I can understand that. Before I discovered rimshots years ago, I used to play centre of the head only and it was way too much energy to play loud. It was indeed a horrible experience on loud gigs. I remember very young looking at the snare drum head and seeing blood, because I'd caused blisters from trying too hit too loud. [img]eek.gif[/img]
But you'll definitely find that once you get into rimshots, life on the drums is so much easier. It's like the snare drum suddenly becomes 'turbo-charged', and it's quite effortless to be authoritative on the backbeat. It's much more fun too!
I'm wondering if a brass piccolo would help to cut through as well?
It depends on the venue/situation, but I would hit harder AND mic the snare to feed it through their monitors.
I've been in this situation before, too. If they can't hear you now, hitting harder(another 20-30 db tops) won't help. There's no reason for you to put your health at risk(tendonitis). Mic the snare(why hasn't it been?) And also, is this just an excuse for them?
Your backbeat will get stronger naturally over time, with consistent playing.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe a little bit of everithing [img]wink.gif[/img] .Quote:
Originally posted by pgroover:
Ugh,
Should I play harder, use bigger sticks, MIC my snare, or tell them to lower their volume!!!!!
<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ February 25, 2005 10:41 AM: Message edited by: pgroover ]</font></font>
What I think is most important is not the actual volume, but the quality of the sound you produce. Ther's a point that no matter how hard you hit, the drum won't sound louder and you're only going to hurt yourself and destroy your heads and sticks.
If you have a good sounding rimshot and you need more volume, a simple mic can solve the problem.
I rely very heavily on rimshots. Even on parts that don't require a lot of volume. I have come to like them so much, that I dislike the sound of full strokes in the center of the snare [img]cool.gif[/img]
All the guys above that recommend rimshit playing on backbeats get my thumbs up!!!
I play in pubs and have never needed mic's because I use the rimshot backbeat consitently, the keyword being consistently!!! My grace notes and full strokes to the centre of the drum are as shown on any instructional video out there, but the rimshots are always on the backbeat, and it never hurts.
sorry !! I missed the mistake, it should be spelt rimshOt!! lol
Go out & get a brass or metal piccolo snare, some rather phat Tommy Aldridge sig sticks; a 20" washy, ringy china, oh yeah, & a gong; & a personal mix complete w power amperage & cave-your-head-in speakers...& turn them away from you & towards the band, & give it some vol...right, then...& have a bullhorn [megaphone] ready to talk to the other members with...you'll never get any more complaints about volume...or, more specif, the lack thereof... [img]wink.gif[/img]
The other clowns will be too busy patting down the earbleed to be lippin' n jawin'...
"Give 'em what they want," Tommy Lee[?] always says... ;cp
...P*ss, moan, p*ss, moan...
...Next thing ya' know, they'll be asking you to, like, "turn down" & shtuff... [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img]
Bastids...the nerve of 'em...
[img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]
J/K
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 26, 2005 11:52 AM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>
Is your bottomhead on your snare busted or dead? Get new one, and perhaps some snare wires.
Yes, rimshots 98% of the time. And using a good whip action Moeller technique in a relaxed manner will allow you to smack the rimsh*t (sorry christaples) out of the snare WITHOUT hurting yourself (see Billy Ward, Adam Nussbaum, Jo Jo Mayer et al). AND, further developing this will also enable you to do the opposite. Ever had to play quietly but did'nt want to sacrifice the b*lls that rimshots give your sound? Use that same technique but use less motion. This takes a little more practice (you have to "get" less of the head and rim) but will make for a much more pleasant experience when you're required to play with more restraint.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I keep all my bottom heads rather tight. My toms are quite loose and I tighten them until they are pure with no unwanted ringing and modulation. I keep my snare top head rather tight to give it a nice crack.Quote:
Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
Is your bottomhead on your snare busted or dead? Get new one, and perhaps some snare wires.
My bass heads are both rather loose, tightened enough to remove creases. I use a CAD mic on the bass drum and that sounds AWESOME. Very Deep, full, punchy, rich sounds.
We did a very big gig on Friday night for one of the top regional Newspapers here in the New York area. We were in a very large hall with wood floors.
I mic'ed the snare drum for the 1st time. WHAT A DIFFERENCE. I had so many people come up to me and compliment me on the sound of my drums and on my playing. Now the band wants to MIC up my whole kit. Great, more stuff to bring on a gig!!
We do a medley of AL, HOT, HOT, HOT, Jump in the Line, Late in the Evening, and a Little Hava Nagila and Tarrentella mixed in. Just after HOT, HOT, HOT, I go into a short drum solo maintaining that fast latin feeling beat. Well, this crowd was so into partying, they made me extend my drum solo for at least 7 minutes. I actually went into an African Rythm beat and mixed in a little "Santana Jingo" beat. All the while the crowd made a circle and people were jumping in and out of the circle doing dances.
I played 4 hours with only two 15 minute breaks which is now becoming customary on my gigs. Talk about keeping you in shape. I played two back to back gigs this way and Today I'm flat out exhausted. I must be out of shape, my hands, my wrists, my hand joints, and my shoulders are all aching today.
So I think I have the volume thing licked.
Regards,
Al
Some great suggestions here guys.
I also use rimshots 98% of the time. Very rarely do I play a back beat in the centre of the drum. It snaps my wrist because the head is so tight and has such a harsh bounce. Plus, the sound is so much fuller when hitting the rims.
Rimshots don't always have to equal really loud strokes. You can play rimshots quietly but retain the warmth and fullness of tone.
MP
pgroover, it sounds like you're about to enter the realm of the sub-mixing world. I highly recommend it! The band I'm in is all 50 somethings and we decided to scale down to a smaller, self contained powered mixer and some compact two-ways and subs. That left only a couple channels for the kit so I decided to get a Mackie CFX12 mixer (8 XLR inputs and 2 stereo 1/4 in. with onboard effects). I run the whole kit through the four sub groups to stereo to the house and I run the L and R Utility out to a Roland KC300 amp as a monitor. I have all the thump and crack (with effects!!!) I need to hear next to me and I can feel the presence of the kit through the mains. AND I control it all. I'm not at the mercy of someone else determining how my kit should sound. We don't carry a sound tech (just not feasible financially) so our bass player runs sound from the stage. We've been complimented by both colleagues and laymen about how great and consistent our sound is; probably because no one is back there riding faders on us all night. I even took it with me to a freelance gig where the soundman got a little defensive, but after I fired it up and did a short run around the kit he shouted in the talkback, "OK, OK I'm a believer, Jeez that sounds rich!"
So, maybe a combination of tweaked technique and possibly miking the whole kit might be the solution. If you have a monitor on stage thumping away it can make a big diference to your band mates who are only hearing the acoustic sound of the drums which tends to dissipate amongst the electronic racket they are producing.
Oh yeah, I forgot to add; when I hit rimshots on a power ballad with the snare channel dripping with verb it's like....I'm a little kid; too cool! Not to mention how the bass player gets sexually aroused (figuratively) when I hit those floor toms and they shake the stage. [img]cool.gif[/img]
"Band mates say I'm not hitting hard enough!"
I say a good right cross from say..... Florida should be just about right. [img]wink.gif[/img]
lol
...Coming fr FL, I'd say..."you rock[y]," WM. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 06, 2005 03:47 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>
that's why microphones were invented.
...& power amps wif big phat speaka's... [img]wink.gif[/img]
Hitting so hard it hurts???
You better ice them elbows bro.
I made a HUGE mistake by playing too loud and through the PAIN. Even in rock, if it's too loud it loses soul.
My elbows are now SHOT! I have pain, especially my snare hitting elbow. For no reason I have deep pain in my elbow to the point lifting a cup of coffee is impossible.
Please...don't play 'til it hurts.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 08, 2005 01:14 AM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>
Man, PP, that's indeed not good...
I too think it's a fallacy that you have to play rock at a bone-crushing, ear-bleeding decibel. How can you articulate many modicums of technq after certain physical [& audible] limitations?
Yes, you might need to play w some sort of "rock panache" or "look" live [MAYBE], but that doesn't mean having to play over idjits who crank their amp heads to Spinal Tap levels [ugh, been there, done that, see ya, don't wanna BE ya]. Then the whole thing gets out of control.
It's best to start at an acceptable middle-OTR level w what you have, & work your way ["ground-"] up to an acceptable band mix for the group from there, so that technq [& physio-ligature!] is not sacrificed! Then let the PA do its part! Let the da** TUNES themselves imply the aggression, NOT [at the expense of] your physiology.
It's OK to LOOK like you're slammin' your a** off, but not really actually be physically DOING that much of the time, too... [img]wink.gif[/img]
The Moehler / Gruber / fingers / rebound thing [along w combining the wrists & arms] can be made to work in hard rock styles too, BION... [img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 08, 2005 05:23 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I knew I'd get some much needed understanding here. How can you hear those hi-hat nuances and ghost notes in rock if your just whailing away.Quote:
Originally posted by fuseU1:
Man, PP, that's indeed not good...
I too think it's a fallacy that you have to play rock at a bone-crushing, ear-bleeding decibel. How can you articulate many modicums of technq after certain physical [& audible] limitations?
Yes, you might need to play w some sort of "rock panache" or "look" live [MAYBE], but that doesn't mean having to play over idjits who crank their amp heads to Spinal Tap levels [ugh, been there, done that, see ya, don't wanna BE ya]. Then the whole thing gets out of control.
It's best to start at an acceptable middle-OTR level w what you have, & work your way ["ground-"] up to an acceptable band mix for the group from there, so that technq [& physio-ligature!] is not sacrificed! Then let the PA do its part! Let the da** TUNES themselves imply the aggression, NOT [at the expense of] your physiology.
It's OK to LOOK like you're slammin' your a** off, but not really actually be physically DOING that much of the time, too... [img]wink.gif[/img]
The Moehler / Gruber / fingers / rebound thing [along w combining the wrists & arms] can be made to work in hard rock styles too, BION... [img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ March 08, 2005 05:23 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font></font>
Screw that, I told them I'm not hitting harder and they have to MIC me up if they want to hear me over the drone of the guitar and bass player!!
Al
[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] Yeah PGroover! Isn't it amazing how guitarists etc. don't hesitate to not ask, but demand that we injure ourselves to make them happy? Wanna get back? Tell 'em that they'd look so much cooler and they'd attract more babes holding their axes as low as the strap will go. Then after they develop ganglion cysts on their wrists from playing in such an unnatural position we can go off and snicker in a corner somewhere. Hey, give him a min'd pick (tell him it'll make him play faster and he'd attract more babes) and maybe he'll also develop de Quervain's syndrome in the right thumb from trying to hold onto that slippery thing. [img]wink.gif[/img]
Then, during break, sneak over and switch the polarity on his amp and spill a little water in front of his mic stand for some real laughs. I guarantee that'll attract more babes. [img]graemlins/whatever.gif[/img]