A little Vinnie story

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February 25th, 2005, 05:08 PM
Pedro G

Quote:

Originally posted by CLWarunki:
I'm sure the click was somehow slipped a touch on playback in the program they were using... it happens... I doubt that Vinnie would play THAT MUCH behind a beat, if so then why not just take the click down 2bpm or something and lock in?

That could be the case, but I doubt it, because this session was in the late 80's or early 90's, so hard disc recording wasn't very popular in big productions back then.... but who knows.
February 25th, 2005, 05:17 PM
cjbdrm

I think what he was saying is that Vinnie played the backbeat slightly 'behind' the beat deliberately, a musical decision determined by the mood or feel of the song(This works really well for medium slow R&B tunes and most ballads, for instance).

I'm guessing this was unlikely software related because this was the 90's and DAWs were probably NOT as prevalent(if that's what you're referring to)...but I know what you're saying. Latency can create problems in the studio for the inexperienced engineer/producer.
February 25th, 2005, 05:44 PM
Vdrummer

Changing the tempo is not the same as changing the feel.
February 25th, 2005, 06:43 PM
ntbCreative

I saw a Harvey mason clinic a while ago and he said something along the same lines but he had to play to his own recorded click and also sync to video as well as audio..........thats nuts. He domonstrated it and was pulling back every 8 bars ... after a while he was almost behind an 8th note!!! and played so consitant!!!
February 26th, 2005, 04:22 AM
Pedro G

A friend of mine told me this story a few years ago, about a session that Vinnie did for Gloria Trevi, an (untalented, mediocre, crazy, arrogant [img]graemlins/shhh.gif[/img] ) successful singer from Mexico in the 90's.

My friend was assisting the producer, and he told me how nice Vinnie was, and how he did all the tracks of the CD in one afternoon. He sight read everything and did 90% in one take, etc. etc.
He even played in some trash cans and things that found in the studio to create a different effect in the intro of one of the songs.

I guess all of this is common in a Vinnie session, but what impressed me was that after Vinnie left, and they were re-checking the tracks, they heard some weird things in some songs, so they isolated the drum tracks with the click, and they could hear how Vinnie was playing behind the beat, so there were some kind of flaming between the drums and the click.
But then they realize that all the strokes were at the exact same distance of the click, with an incredible, almost machine like consistency, so when they took out the click, all they could hear was the deepest fattest grooves that money can buy, even in those ( horrible [img]graemlins/shhh.gif[/img] ) not so great songs.

This show us once again that he's not only a master of technique, subdivisions, polyrhythms, phrasing, etc.etc. he is a master of TIME.

Every time that someone ask me to play behind the beat, this story is in the back of my head.

[img]cool.gif[/img]
February 26th, 2005, 04:27 AM
cjbdrm

Great story.
February 26th, 2005, 04:59 AM
CLWarunki

I'm sure the click was somehow slipped a touch on playback in the program they were using... it happens... I doubt that Vinnie would play THAT MUCH behind a beat, if so then why not just take the click down 2bpm or something and lock in?
February 26th, 2005, 10:54 AM
Suspiria

I'll buy this story. I mean I doubt he was spot on with every hit of the snare, but playing consistently behind the click is something I could see him doing.
February 26th, 2005, 11:34 AM
Dazzler

Nice story! I don't mean to piss on your bonfire, but isn't this a pretty standard thing to do if you want to give the rhythm a more laid back feel? Dennis talks about it on one of his videos, how a producer didn't like where his snare was being placed and his responce was that he "was just trying to give a comfortable vibe for the track".

It is something that all good players will have the ability to do, whether it's to play the snare right on the money or to move it slightly forward or on the back of the quarter note, depending on the feel they are trying to create.
February 26th, 2005, 03:08 PM
wohcnil

ah... vinnie!!!

i saw a video of Karizma live in germany where he was playing "i'm tweaked" with the displaced loop. yes, there is a loop track (some snare sound effect that goes something like "clack") going on that goes exacly together with the displaced snare drum back beat. how did i noe this? cause Vinnie missed a whole phrase of displacements and the just hit a straight backbeat on 2 and 4 through it. and u can clearly hear the loop track displacing against the straight drum groove, after the end of 8 bars, BAM, the loop track dissappeared back into the fat back beat of vinnie's.

did he do this on purpose?? i will never noe.. but it was some crazy ass time keeping right there.. he is a monster...

if anyone recalls his MD2000 video interview, he did mention about .."the loop goes with the drums...." i never really figured out wat loop he was talking about until i saw the "live in germany" video. i always thought that the snare effect in MD2000 video was TRIGGERED.. he humbles us all.

[img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

[ February 26, 2005 11:14 AM: Message edited by: wohcnil ]
February 26th, 2005, 03:33 PM
FuseU1

Quote:

did he do this on purpose?? i will never noe.. but it was some crazy ass time keeping right there...

I believe the correct answer would be something like: "you bet'chur' a** he did it on purpose" [as in, knew what he was doing]... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Don't be confused...Vince NEVER "does not know" what he is doing on those traps... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

[ February 26, 2005 11:35 AM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]
February 27th, 2005, 01:05 AM
Paraflam

Nope it IS possible. In fact Vinnie's time is far from perfect. It feels great and it's consistant, but it's human. The Zappa grooves where there was no click involved are VERY human. I'm not taking anything from him by saying this. Producers prefer this. Playing right on the click sounds too machine like. Jeff, Vinnie, Shawn Pelton, Kenny Aronoff, none of these guys nail the click perfectly. However, that consistantly behind thing you speak of, is very common. Take the click out, and the drums have a pocket. The word pocket means "behind" deep. Slip INTO a pocket. That's what that word means in music. Nailing the click is not slipping into a pocket.
So yes, it's the way most great drummers play. Gadd, Vince Keltner.
February 27th, 2005, 01:08 AM
Paraflam

Also don't take me wrong. All these great players can totally nail the click. They chose not to.
February 27th, 2005, 01:19 AM
Henry II

Most white guys can't play drag time. [img]eek.gif[/img]
February 27th, 2005, 02:11 AM
Terry B

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry II:
Most white guys can't play drag time. [img]eek.gif[/img]

Uhh...what dude? That's a pretty general statement there! I know a lot of white guys as well as about any other race with deep pockets that can place the time anywhere they want. It's all about control, man!
February 27th, 2005, 02:16 AM
FuseU1

I agree w what Para said about playg behind the beat for the element of phatter pocket.
I was referring to the statement about VC "changing up" playg with the loop during Tweeked...he knew what he was doing in this manner. He always does.
February 27th, 2005, 10:55 AM
LDGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by CLWarunki:
I'm sure the click was somehow slipped a touch on playback in the program they were using... it happens... I doubt that Vinnie would play THAT MUCH behind a beat, if so then why not just take the click down 2bpm or something and lock in?

Do remember that playing behind the beat is not the same as playing slower. If your playing behind the beat, your still playing at the same speed as the rest of the musicians, you're just hitting the beats just after the rest of the band are. And i feel it is possible to play that much behind a beat, and Vinnie would do that if it suited the track.

Can someone post some files to listen to?
February 27th, 2005, 11:12 AM
Dazzler

Quote:

Can someone post some files to listen to?

Chuck E's in Love is a perfect example of how to lay back on the click. I'm sure that if you stuck a click on that track, the click would always be heard first, then Gadd's backbeat.

[ February 27, 2005 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]
February 27th, 2005, 11:19 AM
Andy Edwards

Paraflam...

I agree 100%!

Drummers will never be able to beat a drum machine at playing in time.

I don't think Vinnie plays smack in time but what he does do sounds incredible...better than any machine.

I was once told Vinnie actually has had problems with his beat placement and has had to work hard to sort it out. (Maybe him getting the Sting gig was the pay off for his work?)

I think great drummers make the click dance.
February 27th, 2005, 05:51 PM
SingleStrk

I just watched James Taylor's "Live at the Beacon Theatre"-dvd with Steve Jordan. Some of the grooves are so deep that they almost brought tears in my eyes. [img]redface.gif[/img]

Perfect reminder for me - click track is not music. Music is made by people.
February 27th, 2005, 09:44 PM
ntbCreative

In regards to the "WHITE DRUMMER" comment.....I have one name to mention
J.R.Robinson....lol Now you can take yer foot outa yer mouth!!!.......lol
February 28th, 2005, 03:33 PM
Pedro G

I don't think that playing behind or ahead the beat it's such a BIG deal..... it's difficult, I mean, very difficult, and need a lot of work, but a lot of drummers (every color [img]wink.gif[/img] ) do it every day.

I posted this story because it inspired me to try to achieve that type of control and perfection on this concepts.

Every one that has tried this things must know that they're a lifetime goal, so we need some kind of fuel every now and then to keep the motivation going.

For those interested in this ideas, the book of Fred Dinkins "It's About Time" it's an excellent source of material [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
February 28th, 2005, 03:51 PM
Lee Collins

Does anyone have any audio clips where a click is heard and the drummer is also heard intentionally playing behind the beat and also ahead of the beat? I have my own idea how it's done but I'd love to hear someone doing it to see just how far they might actually play behind and ahead and with what consistency.
February 28th, 2005, 05:42 PM
Lee Collins

Quote:

Originally posted by Pedro G:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
and I'm far from having mastered nailing it 100% everytime!

Welcome to the club!! [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img] <hr /></blockquote>Heh [img]smile.gif[/img]
March 1st, 2005, 04:01 AM
Pedro G

Rudy, the Fred D. book that I just mentioned has some full band-minus drumms demos to play along. with on top, center and behind the beat feels. Those will give you an idea. [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img]
March 1st, 2005, 04:08 AM
Lee Collins

Nice one pedro. I found it here:
http://www.tigerbill.com/drumshop/dr...s2.htm#dinkins

So I'll buy it. As well as minus drums, does it have a drummer demoing the different feels too?
March 1st, 2005, 04:30 AM
Pedro G

Rudy, I don't have the book with me right now, but as far as I remember it has a song with the different feels indicated, and he invited a few drummers to play it (Chambers, Lawson, Mason etc. ) so you could hear his versions and compare.
It also have a long list of songs with each feel.

I hope Dinkins give me a little % ....for the commercial [img]tongue.gif[/img]
March 1st, 2005, 04:45 AM
Lee Collins

That sounds excellent then pedro. I've always tried to just nail the click rather than try and play behind or ahead of it. I mean I always thought playing behind or ahead was only after you've mastered nailing/burying it, and I'm far from having mastered nailing it 100% everytime!
March 1st, 2005, 04:51 AM
Pedro G

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
and I'm far from having mastered nailing it 100% everytime!

Welcome to the club!! [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]
March 1st, 2005, 07:29 PM
Julius24

Sometime ago i was told that -when i was learning how to play behind the beat- it was a good idea to play a flam on the backbeat between the hihat and the snare... (sort of the hihat over the click, and the snare behind)... still didn?t figure if that?s a good idea...
My question is... when you play behind the beat, where do you place the hihat?
March 1st, 2005, 07:49 PM
Derek DeFields

I'd move the hi-hat and the snare. The flam sounds unpleasant to me.
March 2nd, 2005, 03:26 PM
Groovemeister

I'm totally with Derek on this one.

Flamming when playing beats is pretty much a sin! It just ends up sounding messy...

Listen to Jeff play on Michael McDonald's "Our Love" from his "No Lookin' Back" album. Jeff nails the groove right on the money, but the snare and hi hat (on beats two and four only) are soooo laid back they're almost in the next beat...

It doesn't mean you are playing out of time, just laid back...

MP
March 3rd, 2005, 12:30 AM
FuseU1

Quote:

Originally posted by Derek DeFields:
I'd move the hi-hat and the snare. The flam sounds unpleasant to me.

Right - [along w Groovemeister,] that's the way I see it.

& it "don't sound too pretty" much of the time on playback, either... [img]wink.gif[/img] [unless it's one of those intentional accents / motif things for the moment]

Just keep practicing [& recordg yourself & listeng back] trying to hold back the snare, then the kick, then both. Once you get a feel for it, it'll just start becoming another natural technq in your bag, because that's what it is - a feel thing.

It kills me the way the industry has learned that the machines are too stiff, & there's all kinds of new ways to make the DM sound more human...isn't that what there's real drummers for?

There's NO sub for an actual drummer. Ask any other instrumentalist worth there salt which they'd rather play with, & you'll get the answer.

Even in music such as pop, dance, techno or house, & rap [& also perhaps D&B] that rely heavily on the stiffness of the stilted machines, the bigger acts use real drummers LIVE, because to do otherwise would look [& feel], for lack of better phrase, pretty stupid.

Even the best feeling DMs pale in comparison to the guys I'm about to mention...

Like was said, give me that Gadd, Jordan, Porcaro, JR, Marotta, Vega, Erskine, Hakim, Mason, Newmark etc ability to widen out & phatten up that pocket anyday.

[ March 02, 2005 08:51 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]