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Just wanted everyone to know that in the
Sheperds Bush thread I posted some fresh videos of Virgil. You might miss 'em otherwise, which would be a shame since especially the first one is freakish.
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ult...c/f/609/t/4687
OR you can just check them out here:
http://www.sabian.com/sabiantalk/for...&enterthread=y
I don't know what to think. Virgil's playing has never really done anything for me. Does anyone else get the feeling that it sounds like a gummed up machine or wading through mud? That's the impression I get when he goes into beats, like the end of the first clip. It seems to be a common virgil-ism I do not like the sound of. The syncopations or modulations he commonly does don't come off as subtly or cleverly as someone like Vinnie.
We can't all sound like Vinnie...
though I wish I could...
I think you haven't heard Virg really bending it?
Some would say he even "leaves Vinnie behind" when he's really working it.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 01, 2005 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Jeppe Morgenthaler ]</font>
I like the vibe on the sound check jam. Thanks alot for posting that! [img]wink.gif[/img]
Although I wouldn't necessarily say that "conceptually" he is able to leave VC behind [I guarantee Vinnie can "hear" every bit of where Virg goes ;c)];with the exception that VC def does not do much of the heavy DB that Virg is capable of incorporating into his "polyrhythmic-modulation madness." VC, Weckl, & Den C have all copped to that. [img]wink.gif[/img] So, in that sense, I agree wif ya's... ;c)
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 01, 2005 06:26 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>
Aside from who you like more and what style suits you. I do believe Virgil's polyrhythmic madness is more complex not that Vinnie does not understand it but his polyrhythmic concepts are LESS severe in their complexity. I think Virg, Marco, Lang and Mangini all have the greater physical ability to go deeper rhythmically, maybe many detest what they do I respect that, but their tools in that respect(interdependence concepts-polyrhythmic ideas) are more advanced and developed. Vinnie has openly said for MANY YEARS!! that Virg BLOWS! him away technically and creatively, I am not saying that he literally blows him away by leaving him(he uses the term figureatively is that a word?) in the dust but Vinnie has no problem acknowledging other's Greatness and he was one of the first here in the states to openly tout Virgil and it sure was not just for his feet.
Dig
True...some of Virg's patterns are pretty sick...& then he switches in mid-beat & plays the same pattern "leading" with the other side of the body [L/R, or top/bottom]. In this way he also is advanced beyond the others. But, perhaps in a musical context scenario, it might mean no more musically-speaking than anything VC or DW could do sometimes... ;c)
Debatably or otherwise, Virg is def one of if not the most technically sick drummer evar up to this point in time. No argument from me, there.
But we don't need to do that one again... ;c)
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 01, 2005 06:24 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>
I wasn't disputing his technical ability, if that's what it sounded like. I just don't think he cuts it musically. I'm not impressed if someone can play a complex pattern leading with either side of their body, or flips from traditional to matched, spins his sticks a lot, or does silly rock-star cross-overs with his suspended toms. It doesn't change his lack of touch, feel, or crappy drum sound. I just don't think he "fits" into music. It's not enjoyable to listen to for me, and I'm not inclined to argue over my opinion, but I should still be able to state it. Don't get me wrong, he can play really fast bass drum stuff, and has some interesting concepts, but it seems like everytime he goes into a modulation or polyrhthm he just takes it and bludgeons us to death with it, rather than slip it in like a slick operator like Vince.
Oh well, maybe we'll start the old "maybe you don't get it" argument again. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First of all, I'm not familiar with Virgil Donati's playing, so forgive me if I offend anyone. These videos are the first I've ever seen or heard of him.Quote:
Originally posted by Digital Man:
I do believe Virgil's polyrhythmic madness is more complex
He's an incredible drummer, with excellent facility and VERY musical ideas - BUT- I don't understand why you guys are going on and on about his "POLYRHYHTMIC" brilliance. All I hear is the occasional 3 against 2 and 4 against 3. I'm not saying that he isn't GREAT, but there isn't any complex polyrhythmic stuff happening (in these videos anyway).
My favourite MUSICAL application of polyrhythms (5 over 3, 7 over 4, etc.) is Terry Bozzio's drumming on UK's Danger Money and Chad Wackerman's playing on Zappa's LSO recordings.
Check out Planet X or OTV, not Soul Sirkus to really hear Donati. Soul Sirkus is a straight ahead
rock band, doing a simple jam in this vid.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 01, 2005 08:20 PM: Message edited by: JDouglee ]</font>
Those vids are NOTHING! in relation to what he can and does do many times whether on record or in clinic. His layering of rhythm's and the phrasing taking place WHILE layering goes much farther than what Bozz or Wackerman has ever done.
Dig
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 01, 2005 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Digital Man ]</font>
I don't dispute the fact that Virg's technical ability is far above most. And I would love his playing a lot more if I heard his stuff done in a more tasteful way. What I mean is that regarding his drum solos, Virgil leaves me flat out bored, musically. Vinnie's solos, on the other hand, seem more interesting to me. there's a quality to them that keeps my interest. given that all of us go through a stage where we push ourselves technically and physically, does anyone else wonder about guys like Virgil or Lang or Minneman? I understand that to push oneself is often where you find yourself, but how long can these guys push the boundaries of the drum world? Is there really anything musically that can make such drumming groovy? Will these guys settle down with all their polyrhythms and go for groove and taste? Drummers like vinnie & weckl went through a phase where they were all about the technical side of drumming and both of them have matured and changed for the better. Do you guys see Virgil settling down?
Lets not forget this was a soundcheck. As was mentioned above, these videos definitely don't showcase his true capabilities.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, & no. ;c) Virgil's present bag is OTT contemporary high-level prog-rock-fusion. He practiced & refined it heavily over ALL those countless hours/years, so that is what he's inclined to do until he just decides he has nothing to prove anymore. Or, he could go on like this until the day he trades in that grand drum throne in the sky. Who's to say?Quote:
went through a phase where they were all about the technical side of drumming and both of them have matured and changed for the better. Do you guys see Virgil settling down?
I find he grooves on the intro to that PX tune in 7, Ataraxia, if i rem corr? Anyway, if one doesn't dig his OTT playing style, just keep Gadd or JR in the player. [img]wink.gif[/img] I listen to all these guys, for diff reasons, & enjoy each tremendously for what it is.
Virgil is perceived to be the Overplayer of the Millenia, & so he perhaps IS. But I take account the term "overplay," again. By [& how] what criteria does one measure this? I can't accuse him of OP'g on the OTV/PX stuff, because that is WHAT IT IS - over the top [OTT]. So why would anyone call this OP'g? I don't get that mentality. Everything doesn't have to fit nicely & neatly within some preconceived box. Altho there are MANY instances where one would use common sense & NOT "blow their whole bag," as in a studio red-light pop tune setting,* & as does VD w SS. He's not blowing his wad over the vocals & Neal's gtr...
Why can't he display his abilities? Is this a socialist, communist regime? Isn't there something for everyone, entitled to take it or leave it, with no two things necessarily alike? If a HIGHLY paid pro football player didn't use his full potential on the field, would he last very long? I realize sports & music maybe should not be compared this way [perhaps?], & as certain scenarios require a def "less is more" approach [refer to * above ;c)], but there are many SIMILARITIES between the two AW. So Virg is a total bad-asp & drops jaws aplenty around the globe. So what? When I get out of that mood, I pop in some Jeff... ;c}
I wouldn't want hand or leg cuffs on Virgil Donati any more than I'd want them on Jeff, Gadd, Curry, Gaynor, or JR. That would deprive me of something really special - witnessing someone's hard-wrought accomplishments, much like we view figure skating, the Masters, Wimbledon, or the Olympics.
I've always been of the impression that guys like Vinne, Weck, Chambers, & Virg have the cpabilty to play all that stuff, but still in time & groove to the style, & they can always back it down if need be. The same is not nec true in inverse... ;c)
Just look at it this way...Virg is often just simply "thinking outside the box"... ;c)
Fret not, he'll prob "get more musical" as more time passes by... ;c)
And I'll bne taking my happy, more musical-arse over to the skins for some practicing awa playing, now...
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 02, 2005 04:28 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I find that very hard to believe. Have you heard "Carrying No Cross" off of UK's "Danger Money"? Never mind that it was recorded over 20 years ago -- that stuff is beyond the beyond as well as being musically brilliant. And Wackerman's command of the sickest polyrhythms (like 11 over 3 or 7 over 5) on the London Symphony stuff is without peer.Quote:
Originally posted by Digital Man:
His layering of rhythm's and the phrasing taking place WHILE layering goes much farther than what Bozz or Wackerman has ever done.
OH NO! Virg vs Chad vs Boz...vs VC vs DW vs JR again! [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]
Godzilla beat the tar outta Kong in the Japanese release; Kong messed over da Big G in the US release...which Godzilla would win, the Jap version or American?
Spiderman or Superman? Aw, Supes could kick his little spindly-legged arse all the way back to the Web! Supes trumps everbody! UNLESS you have Kryptonite three doors down...Vinnie & Virg cower b4 kryptonite AW...
My bet's on God - I mean, he designed the Spider for Peter's sake - he can whack all their butts...but wouldn't necessarily, perhaps...& then again, sometimes...
Woooo-haaaaahh! There I go!...all giddy-like, & off the high-dive...
Ah, it isn't that serious...Laugh already, will ya.
I don't care, I'm talking to MYSELF anyway...*phhffft*
/;cP
[BTW - I was in no way calling anyone "socialist or communist" in that above post - just making a point via the statement of a general idea, that's all...so no off intended /;cp]
If I have entertained but even ONE here [awa detracted the topic from its present apparently ominous course/heading], then I've done my job...
...for the moment...
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 02, 2005 07:52 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>
@g.a.m: I think you made some excellent points in your lengthier post. Good job!
Might I just (as a most dedicated fan of "The Virg", NOT just his prog stuff!!!) add that Virg CAN do more stuff than most people here have heard. His 70's stuff (see/hear links below) is indeed VERY "Gadd'ish", and his recent tracks with D. Steward / M. Jagger for the "Alfie" soundtrack was indeed also very simply grooving, even one track with brushes, which I think would surprise a few of the "noone-but-(insert Vinnie/Gadd/JR/etc...) -guys!"
Virgils biggest problem is the same as many of the big ones have gone through: People who don't know better thinking; "Oh he's a tech head -he couldn't POSSIBLY do anything but fast db stuff". Far from the thruth indeed.
http://www.petercupples.com/recordin...-LoveWorld.mp3
http://www.petercupples.com/recordin...llRemember.mp3
(1982 Peter Cupples, Aussie star) I'm not saying that these clips state any undeniable facts,- but they might just open a few eyes.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 02, 2005 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Jeppe Morgenthaler ]</font>
You say 11 over 3 OR a 7 over 5. He is beyond playing complex time signatures but is at the forefront of playing different signatures left against right at the same time and alternating those times around the kit utilizing different pieces in his kit while phrasing in between using different rudiments. His layering concepts are technically amazing and his creativity in using them is amazing at the same time. One example is 7/8 against 5/16 just for starters. He plays a left foot pattern in 7 against the 5/16 utilizing the right hand and foot and than does paradiddles with the left hand and foot in the 7 against the 5/16 on the right side while switching the pattern in 5 to different pieces of the kit. The piano is playing the 7 and the bass is in 5 and he is playing along in both and will phrase in each at different times. Or he does a repeating 4/4 pattern over 5/8 in another tune which creates some cool phrasing and musical tension. Watching and hearing it is amazing and that is some of his simpler stuff now day's. Mangini pulls off similar concepts not quite the same they just do not come across as creative and grooving to me but they are still physically amazing.
Dig
Marco is into those similar kinds of crazy inter-dependence things AW.
Yeah Marco is pretty amazing. I just need to see him in some musical settings that would do him good. Illegal Aliens is not quite my cup of Famous Grouse. What did you think of the old Virgil soundsnippets?
It's a bummer to have to compare 2 greats. This is my opinion: 'Virg' is a 'Great', and 'Vinnie' is a 'Genius'. No other drummer on this planet thinks the same way as 'Vinnie' does. Where i think 'Vinnie' wins points is his vocabulary, and he can also pull off any style of music with assurance more than 'Virg'. Don't get me wrong, i dig both of these guys but 'Vinnie' is kinda'..........alone in his category.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 05, 2005 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Blue Tav ]</font>
I hear you Blue Tav.
-Would love for you to hear some of the more unknown/unheard Virg stuff. I am sure you would be surprised. But I'll gladly chime in on the fact that Vinnie is unique!
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 06, 2005 05:47 AM: Message edited by: Jeppe Morgenthaler ]</font>