We love dave!

Wow, I've just watched the 'how to develop technique' DVD. I mean really, the guys attention to detail is from another planet.
I have just learned so much from watching that. I'll be watching it a few more times too. It's really interesting seeing how he uses that new grip and achieves that almost fly out of the hand rebound. Haven't tried it yet and I'm not sure it's gonna be as easy as he makes it look. I think that's the bit of the DVD I'll be studying the most.
I love the whole 'playing out of the drums' approach as opposed to into the drums, and how he talks about getting a bigger more reverberating sound with this new looser approach to grip. His approach to the revised double stroke roll is very cool too. Interesting also how he talks about seat height. I've heard lots about having your legs parallel to the floor, but daves' aren't really. I often wondered about his rack tom heights, and he simply said it's where his sticks want to go when he closes his eyes. Which makes a lot of sense. I could go on. Suffice to say, that DVD is fantastic and the long solo on the yellow kit and the solo at the end are just sick.

YOU'RE MY HERO DAVE! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

If anyone wants to buy this DVD, I'm selling my copy for $15 plus postage. PM me for more info.

Just think, Freddy Gruber is your mentor now... [img]wink.gif[/img]

Yep. Freddy Gruber seems to be quite a character, almost eccentric the way he was talking.

"So I said ta da guy, it's all the same..."

I love Dave too.
His classics "back to basics", "next step" and the trilogy of the "new evolution" are great. These last series haven?t the high production of the two first, but I love the way Dave explains all...
Well, he is my favorite, in many aspects...
Wow, and his performing with Chick Corea Akoustic band (2004 Montreal festival tv show from easytree) is already really a classic for me.
I will try to rip some clips from that night and post them here.
Something I wish is that his new CD adds something different for me (composition way).
Well, always is a pleasure talking about Dave.
Bye

I've been trying this out. I'm a little stuck on exercise one where you hit the grip stick with the other stick to make it flip back to get a feel for it. As I hit the stick, it is flying back. However, sometimes as I allow the last 2 fingers to come away in order for the stick to rebound back, the second finger sometimes comes away with them. Or rather, the stick ends up resting across the second joint of my 2nd finger or even nearer the back of my 2nd finger. I guess that isn't supposed to happen.

I need to check then because it's a little hard to see on the video. When I put my 2nd finger over the stick as the fulcrum, the stick should be sitting only in or near the first joint of the 2nd finger and not further in?

Alright, I've done another video. Am I doing it basically right? Donu, Andy, what do you think?
There's a better view in the last bit of the clip as I face the camera.
Thanks in advance for any advice. Lemme know if there's a problem with opening the clip.

http://jamesseph.phpwebhosting.com/DRuM's%20Stuff/weckl%20grip.avi

Rudy,

We'll chat about this on "SuperDrumSunDay" I hope! I haven't seen your vid yet because this darn internet cafe won't let me download video...

What I will say however is that Dave's videos are great... ALL OF 'EM...

You'll have to forgive the haircut and trousers in the first two (B2B and TNS), but you can't fault the playing. Spured many a clone them there vids did...

MP

Its a good one...the way he plays that yellow set is very cool

The way it was explained to me is that it's like bouncing a basket ball. If the balls not inflated properly (in accord to head tension, head material composition/age and dryness/hardness) you won't get the same result as if you had the ball at its proper inflation. And the harder you throw the ball at the ground, the farther it "should" bounce back, hence the nescessity to develop your ability (grip) to continue bouncing the "ball" effectively.

The older the heads are (especially if they are really old), the less "bounce" they have to them. And of course, the less desirable they sound usually.

So to sum it up.

Head composition = ball rubber type
Head age = age of ball
Stick = your hand (the medium to work with the ball)
Your grip/fulcrum/technique = your hand, your arm, muscle groups, and mechanics/application that bounces the ball

dsop,

i can't seem to PM ya. i can't find your contact info.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
Yep. Freddy Gruber seems to be quite a character, almost eccentric the way he was talking.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah for sure... I had the chance to study with him when I was 18 or 19 through another teacher that knew him, but passed it up. Heard some good stories though along the lines of:

Freddy: "Ok, that groove was not bad but it's missing something... look, play it like you are riding a camel over the sahara desert... like this." *insert riding camel demonstration here*

Student: "uhhhhhh... ummmmm... ok?"

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:

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Freddy: "Ok, that groove was not bad but it's missing something... look, play it like you are riding a camel over the sahara desert... like this." *insert riding camel demonstration here*

Student: "uhhhhhh... ummmmm... ok?"

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I see what you're getting at Chris, but that seems fair enough to me! Music is about expression, passion and emotions. It is a medium with which we can convey moods and envoke places and scenes. It doesn't all have to be about speed and technique. If playing the drums like we have just thrown it down a flight of stairs or like we are riding a camel is necessary to create the right feel or mood for a piece, then great!

Quote:

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Originally posted by Andy Vermiglio:
Rudy,

I down loaded your video but only the audio plays. No image appears.

Andy

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry about that andy. I just uploaded the avi straight from my camera. I can compress it to divX mpeg 4 which will make the file smaller, but I'm not sure if it'll help you see it or not.
Anyone here good with this stuff and know how to get a video from a digital camera in some standard easy to view format?

Well .avi is a very common file extension for video and used a lot by members here. Are you using windows media player?
Visit their site and update to all the newest codecs. The video worked fine for me.

And now to you Rudy! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Just as some words of encouragement:
Its easy to understan you are struggling with some of the technique. Don't expect to grasp this in the first week. If that were possible, everyone'd be playing like Dave.
You will probably watch the footage several times over and then finally notice some little part that you didn't think of before. Maybe you'll even do some reading on a random web site or come across another drummer where you will pick it up. Remember when I asked for some advice to refine my technique with single strokes (i.e. Using fingers rather than wrists?). Well that took a while too...It just suddenly clicks when you least expect it.

Maybe this doesn't really apply to you and you're well on your way - I don't know. Good luck practicing. If you really are stuck...NOTHING is better than an experienced teacher that can look over your shoulder and give you instant feedback.

Sheesh...They should include that in "Special Features" for all instructional DVDs now, huh? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Yeah, that is good advice suspiria. I will probably pay for some lessons with dazzler and marc and louie and get this sorted cos I reckon it's the key to a whole better way of playing. I reckon it's that important to pursue. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Nice video Rudy. I thought you were going to hit a drum there at first!

I've spent a lot of time thinking about the whole Weckl-Gruber concept and have practiced it a lot as well. It's something that makes sense on paper but I'm not sure exactly how applicable it is to the drum set. In a lot of the performace shots of Dave with the band on the DVD he's holding pretty tight and there doesn't seem to be much rebound. Nothing like when he's explaining it on the pad anyways.

In order for the stick to rebound, it needs to have the time required to do so. This isn't really a big issue until you start playing fast, which happens a lot when playing busy ghost-note oriented stuff.
What dictates how much time is required for the stick to rebound? The speed at which it rebounds of course.
What dictates the speed at which it rebounds? The speed at which the drum is initially struck. The harder you hit, the faster the stick comes flying back.

So is there ever a time when you can't wait the time required for the proper rebound? I don't know.
[img]eek.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 22, 2005 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Steve Holmes ]</font>

Suspria, good advice about having a teacher work with you on developing the technique.

Steve, I know what you mean. But, the rebound is still there when Dave is playing the kit. Since the strokes are so fast the rebound isn't as high, but it is still there. The stick is going to come up whether you're using the Moeller technique or not. It's a matter of how it's going to get up there...manually lifting it (you do the work) or just allowing the stick to rebound up (the stick does the "work"). And good point about the initial stick velocity required for a quick rebound...it's all related.

Yeah, good points there steve. I don't think I've ever really paid much attention to the way I rebound the stick, so I guess this is at least making me think about it a bit more. Actually, I noticed some inconsistencies in the DVD on second viewing. You're definitely right about his hands looking tighter when playing with the band than when demonstrating. He also talks about how he prefers playing double bass pedals with heels down for better balance, yet everytime the camera showed his feet playing double pedals, his heels were always up, lol.
He also talked about his approach these days being more for the music and less from thinking about being technical and chopsy as it was in the old days. Not sure I saw any difference, it's still all good ol' weckl flash to me but I love it!

Hey andy, try this codec, it's the one for M-JPEG Codec avis, which is apparently the format from my camera. Just right click on 'Mcmjpeg.inf' and click on install.
http://codecs.necromancers.ru/download/mcjpg30.zip

Also, before installing this, you could try opening it with quicktime instead of media player.

With regards to the gruber technique, I would suggest watching Dave's video in conjunction with Steve Smith's video, as they both cover the gruber stuff, but with a slightly different approach.

One comment I have with Dave's video is his discussion of the 'triangle' for use with the fulcrum. He himself admits that this is his own derivation of the technique - he took the original technique and made an approach that works for him.

My advice to anyone trying to learn the gruber method would be to do the same thing - learn it the 'correct' way, and then adapt it to your style (rather than starting off with Weckle's method - you may end up there, but do what works for you, not Dave).

The most instructive comment that I found was on Steve Smith's video. He said to take the second finger (middle finger), curl it under and let the stick rest on there. Ignore the first finger - it just happens to be on your hand.

To be honest, I don't actually know what happens as you begin to play faster. Does the second finger remain motionless, and all finger action come from the last two fingers? Or does the middle finger 'help' with the rebound? Like I said - I don't know, but when I do play faster, it just happens and it's relaxed, so I'm not fussed.

With regards to Dave's playing in the video, and whether or not the gruber technique is applicable to playing fast, I would say that Weckle is a really bad example to look to for the applicability of the gruber technique.

I've always held the opinion that Weckle (given his mastery of the instrument) has had pretty bad technique. Great chops, but bad technique. It seems like he practiced so much that he was able to get his muscles to do all those things, even though it weren't the most natural way to play. I think it's hard for him to shed years of poor technique and suddenly transform into a rebound god. That said, his technique now is much better than it was before :-).

Rather than looking to Weckle for inspiration on using rebound to play fast, I would suggest looking to Buddy. Watch some of his vids - he plays fast, and is always relaxed, and the sticks are always rebounding.

That said, technique is not the be all and end all - Dave was still a monster player even when I considered him to have 'poor technique'. And my favourite drummer of all time (Steve Gadd) doesn't have 'great technique'.

Also, for more information on hand technique, I would also recommend Jim Chappin's video. His presentation is very disjointed and all over the place, but man does that guy have good hands.

Anyway, just my humble 2 cents. And please realise that I'm speaking about technique relatively - when I said Weckle had bad technique, it was in comparison to the top 5% of drummers all time. I'm sure Weckle's hands were better than mine when he was 7 years old ;-)

Who's Dave Weckle? [img]wink.gif[/img]
Welcome Simon. Great input on other DVDs to check out, but I still find it hard to agree with your point about Weckl having poor technique.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 22, 2005 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Suspiria ]</font>

Rudy,

I down loaded your video but only the audio plays. No image appears.

Andy

LOL Rudy - you little tease!! We can't see your face. [img]wink.gif[/img]

That's looks fine too me. The fulcrum stays the same I think, but it's the way you 'accept the rebound' off the drums that's the important thing.

I can't really add anything to Daves' video as it's exactly the way Dave Hassell taught me. He was responsible for bringing the rebound method into the country and in fact showed it to Bob Armstrong, who modified his approach.
Having studied with both, Bob taught me the basic Moeller stokes and how to execute them with a fluid motion, bring out the accents and throwing away all the up and tap strokes. Hassell showed me the rebound approach, where you 'let the stick do the work.' Without wishing to compare myself to Weckl IN ANY WAY(!!) I also changed my technique from non-rebounds to the Gruber method and had to re-learn everything.

There will be times however, when you want to let the stick be buried in the head, but that should always be a concious musical and emotional decision.

This DVD is great - You lot have made me want to stick it on again. Nice! [img]wink.gif[/img]

This can be one of our HOT TOPICS on Sunday!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Thanks Suspiria.

My point about Weckle's technique was that he used to play really far back on the sticks, and forced out the notes. Note that (in this context) I don't consider technique to have anything to do with 'what it sounds like', how accurate it is, or 'is it any good'? All of those things Dave would have scored a 10 on from me.

I was only talking about how he moved his hands to move the sticks to make noise.

It's hard to explain, and I suppose I am using a fairly narrow definition, but the best way that I can explain it would be, for example, to say watch Weckle and Buddy back-to-back. They both play great things (things that I, and most likely most people on this board couldn't touch). Now, rather than listening to what noises they make, watch thier bodies and hands - who uses more effort?

It's always been my opinion that Weckle uses a lot of effort to achieve his amazing results. Note that it's the results that count ... but that's what I'm talking about. Weckle never made playing the drums look easy to me, and he never made his parts look easy (has anyone ever watched Dave play and think, 'aw man, I could do that?' Me neither =)).

Anyway, it's hard for me to explain, and I realise that this isn't a great forum to post anything negative about Dave [img]smile.gif[/img] . But, as I said, I'm not saying anything he hasn't said himself (to a greater or lesser degree) and this is not meant as a putdown. In fact, it's a true sign of greatness that someone as good as he was could turn around and say, 'oh man, I could really improve my hands'.

Quote:

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Originally posted by T Simon:
In fact, it's a true sign of greatness that someone as good as he was could turn around and say, 'oh man, I could really improve my hands'.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now you're talking [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
I guess I misunderstood you then. I definitely see where you're coming from when you start to talk about how much effort a drummer uses. Regardless, I would still argue that Dave looks very fluid and relaxed when he plays.

someone's got to step in here, call me anal.

it's W E C K L

NOT WECKLE

Quote:

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Originally posted by T Simon:


Weckle never made playing the drums look easy to me, and he never made his parts look easy (has anyone ever watched Dave play and think, 'aw man, I could do that?' Me neither =)).

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think dave looks very relaxed considering he plays 300 notes every 1000th of a millisecond.
If he made it 'look' any easier, I still doubt most people would be saying 'I could do that'because you can hear how complex what he's playing is.
[img]wink.gif[/img]

Quote:

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Originally posted by D.Seipel:
someone's got to step in here, call me anal.

it's W E C K L

NOT WECKLE

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">haha, I pointed it out before but it went unnoticed. Thanks for stepping up [img]cool.gif[/img]

Rudy,

Thanks for the codec link. It worked.

When you snap the stick back, let it fly all the way back in your hand. As the stick travels back, all of the fingers should be pointing straight down. The middle finger does not stay curled around the stick during this phase of the stroke.

This is the first step in learning Dave's masterful technique.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
Alright, I've done another video. Am I doing it basically right? Donu, Andy, what do you think?
There's a better view in the last bit of the clip as I face the camera.
Thanks in advance for any advice. Lemme know if there's a problem with opening the clip.

http://jamesseph.phpwebhosting.com/DRuM's%20Stuff/weckl%20grip.avi

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry for not reply earlier but i just check this thread once before it goes on technique

Seeing you vid i think you really don't allow the stick to move freely, i think you hit the stick a little too hard ( first part of you vid at least) and if you allowed the stick to really move freely the stick maybe fall on the floor, i think this fear of the stick fall is what block us at the begining, after practicing a lot with this DVD i understand that when i was not able to play correctly it was Not because i didn't had enough rebound but because i had too much rebound !!

I had unconscious reflex to tense fingers because of the fear that my stick fall, and now i'll definitelly said that when you start to use this technique if you stick never fall you don't practice it correctly

I think you should mix exercise 1 with the next one( hitting on pad and let fully rebound )

The example of basket ball is perfect, what i do to make me feel that was with the pad, use the second finger but remove the thumb and all others finger and with my left hand dribble with the head of the stick just like wiht a basket ball [img]wink.gif[/img]

Quote:

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Originally posted by T Simon:
To be honest, I don't actually know what happens as you begin to play faster. Does the second finger remain motionless, and all finger action come from the last two fingers? Or does the middle finger 'help' with the rebound? Like I said - I don't know, but when I do play faster, it just happens and it's relaxed, so I'm not fussed.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you mean finger control with palm down ?

Thanks donu. Also in my video, it looks as though I'm moving my left hand before it's been struck. Must have been unconsciouly doing that.
I guess I need to hold it 'super loose' then and see if it flys out of my hand, which it has done once or twice recently. Was hard to know just how loose to hold it.

Weckle was prob a typo.
[I tend to call him, "Wreckl."] ;c)

I tend to have the thumb a little closer [in relation] to where the first finger sets on the stick [RH - "matched"], a little less of an exaggerated "triangle," but close to DW's method...almost directly parallel in relation to it, w the 2nd finger a little bit back further...& i also tend to go somewhere between a French grip & DW/FG's grip at any given time...

At any rate, he's always been 1 of the "conceptual kings," regardless of the "old" or "new" DW hand technique... [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 23, 2005 02:43 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

Quote:

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Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:

I guess I need to hold it 'super loose' then and see if it flys out of my hand, which it has done once or twice recently. Was hard to know just how loose to hold it.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Loose Just enough to not let stick fall (it will fall at begining) Not more