What is your asking price?

Hello All-

This question is for non-union, freelance, self-contracted musicians. What is your asking price when a sit in gig is offered to you, assuming that it is asked of you? What factors go into coming to that figure, ie. cartage, driving distance, etc.? Is it an hourly deal or a lump sum?

Please pardon the crassness of the question, but I am in the middle of this type of situation personally and in terms of contracting a sub. I just wondered if there was some consensus among the wise and experienced of this elite board.

Take Care All. F.S.

It would depend on the type of gig, but assuming it's a typical job/casual thing (wedding, etc.) I would say $200 to $300 for the night, on average.

I?m not sure I understand your question.

Are you asking us how much you should ask to do a certain gig, or what you should offer a sub?
Price is a function of a few things: your minimum to leave the house being high among them. Local rates, and availability of qualified subs, are others. You should have some idea of the going rate for these events from local word of mouth. You could check the Union, and see what scale is for the kind of event you are considering.

Other factors ? what kind of gig is it? Will it be fun, or will it be work? What requirements come with it? Is it a lower budget 4-hour jazz gig at the World Stage, or is it a corporate affair put on by folks with deep pockets and a party planner with a very large bug up her backside? I might do a local jazz gig for $100.00 in a smaller room. A wedding ? nah. I?d hold out for more $ or stay home.

Distance, attire, time required to be on site, parking and difficulty of load in are also factors I consider.

Price is a lump sum, once all the variables are assessed.

If you want to hire a good sub,who?ll go in cold, nail it, and leave people thinking well of your professionalism for not letting the band down, then don?t skimp on the money. I had a guy offer me $125.00 to do a gig for him that he was making $$250.00 on. When I found out, I asked him about it and gave him a chance to make good. He did not. He told me to take it or leave it. I left, and he didn?t get a sub.

I usually have a flat rate of 1 million dollars. If the gig is in Canada or with a Canadian artist then they can pay me in CAN dollars. If the gig is in the USA or elsewhere in the world (and the artist is american), then I charge in USD. If the artist is in the Yukon, then I charge in gold nuggets... like when I did a top 40 gig last year in Whitehorse... they told me that it was 1.2 million in gold, but it turned out to be only $3'000 CAN... so I was ripped off in that case, but I know more about gold now.

I have been rethinking my rates lately because my phone hasn't been ringing... but there are a good handful of artists in the world that can afford my rates, so I'll hold out for a gig with them (sting, prince, michael jackson, justin timberlake, madonna, elton john, U2, ozzy, metallica, david bowie, dr.dre... the list goes on).

Really, why settle for anything less? Never sell yourself short... at the end of the day only YOU can play drums like YOURSELF... that is worth something (if you are a good drummer!). We don't play drums to get rich... but it would be nice, wouldn't it?

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

If someone paid me in Canadian money, i would drop kick that Loonie (or Toonie if it was a BIG-TIME gig) all the way to Winnipeg. Well, actually, i think the Canadian dollar may be worth more than our's soon so maybe i had better pocket it afterall. Still can't use the damn quarters in the pop-machines, though [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]

If I like the gig I do it for free. I work my ass off all week in a job that pays well so making a ?100 quid for doing the thing I love doesn't seem worth it and....more importantly I get asked back to the gigs I like all the time because I don't cost anything and I clearly love it.

If I don't like the gig or it's studio work (which is usually a pain in the ass)I charge as much as I can get out of principle or I don't bother.

when you say 'sit in' gig, what does that mean? club, corporate?
what the guy above mentioned in fees is reasonable, chances are, whomever called you has an idea of what they want to pay or what the gig allows for.

all depends on the gig...but a lump sum is what is expected. Cartage is only if its stated or if its a session and distance is not a factor..gas $ can be but if you agree to do the gig, you agree to get there...but these are the things that you have to bring up to the Md..yknow?

Here are some ballpark figures for ya....

Corperate gig $200-$500
Jazz/blues gig $75-$100
New Country gig $100-$200
Top 40 chicken wing gig $100-$150
Jam night $75-$100

If its outa town make sure accoms are included..and ask about gas on top of the price or you can combine it to nice rounded off number.
Ask about a rider or perks (diner or drinks) ...this will make the gigs more worth while. It also depends on if its a reading gig or not..then I charge more. You should find out what others charge as well to avoid overcharging as losing the gig. The prices I gave are standard prices in Toronto,Ontario........dunno what they are in US but dont think there is a big diff.
In regards to a sub...pay em what they are worth plus gas and ?. I always try to get an amazing sub and someone who will nail the gig!!..If you gotta pay a bit more...so be it as long as the gig is nailed!!...It also makes you look good and very professional.
Hope this helps ya out......
Good luck...
Cheers!

Anton Fig lives in NYC. Gigs don't pay in NYC, so he's not playing for less money than anyone else would get to do the same gig. I doubt he does anything for free- maybe after doing someone's CD and getting paid a grand or two he might play a showcase for them or something...but would you ask him to play for free? It's disrespectful to do that...

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Originally posted by cjbdrm:
No offense, but the 'hobbyists' playing gigs for free or for very little money make it harder for the 'pros' trying to make a living- or at least get paid what they're worth. It sets a precedent.

I've got a day gig out of necessity, but I would never play for free. My talent is worth something. I'd rather stay at home than be exploited by a club owner or bandleader. That's the one thing I don't miss about working in NYC. (That's another sore subject...)

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm sorry, & no off AW, but I clearly have to go w cjbdrm on this one.

Anyone who does this for a living will find this laughable if not completely unfeasible at that, to say the least.

Please tell us where you work so we can come in w some Tommy Aldridges & whack some sense into ya [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] J/K.
Besides that, I've never met a businessman/woman or corporate-world ["day job"] person who didn't do most things for $.

We are in this for the love of it - but we also have to earn a living AW.

I recently had an old college buddy of mine who went on to be a doctor & does [very] well locally. He found my # aft all these yrs of being out of contact, & wanted me to play w he & our old friends/bandmates from back then at a local nice restaurant / nightclub in town...for a nice dinner, free drinks, & good times/reminiscing.

I did not take offense to this of course, & I'm not "above" doing it, because it would be great to hang w them & have a good time aft all these yrs. But I would never expect this from a stranger wanting me to play their gig, as THEY do it for a living / the $, so they darn well better not expect anything less for me. That attitude can cause quite a few musos to get completely ripped off & taken advantage of - & usually DOES.

I understand Anton's sit - he chooses to do this: A] because he has long had a well-established name in the business, & B] he does those because he respects the players as musicians & friends, & wants to play w them because it's either prestigious, on a limited budget, & quite frankly music he really wants to play & musos he respects & wants to play w; an understanding, possibly the principle of "favor[s]" [which works BOTH ways]. In this way he benefits his own name & career by carefully choosing whom to do this for. It makes him look good. Not that that's why he's doing it [just to "make himself look good]," but it is an act of small sacrifice & humility which can go a long way between people of integrity - I said, people of INTEGRITY. In this way it "helps" his career/name as an honorable person & businessman.

These are called gratis. & besides that, he "ain't doin'" Letterman's Show for free. That is his well-payg "day job." So it is similar to GaryL's sit, except for one large factor - it is all music - it all revolves around him being a pro muso. But imagine if Letterman turned to Anton & said, "hey I really appreciate ya doin' this every day of your adult life for free, pal" [while I & some of the CBS staff make 5 to 800,000 to close to a mill per episode]... wth

So you see, AF can afford to do a gratis here & there - but I guarantee you he tries to keep it hush-hush within his circles amongst his peers, as he wouldn't want to be expected to do this all the time. It's just professional courtesy.

Another reason one would want to gratis is because it could potentially turn into a paying sit down the road. But these are personally selective & one must make the call & go w their gut on that one - but this clearly doesn't apply to everyone nor every situaton.

I can understand your sit - you wanting to do it for fun [since you don't do it exclusively for a living], & because it's "good biz" if it involves other people you work with...but I certainly hope there's less like you than more. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

I guess I could sum it all up by just asking - you wouldn't go to your day job for free, would you? [Even tho many unfortunate folks on the "lower ladder rung" are darn close to it...minimum wage, what a joke...]

This is "America," for Pete's sake, the "blessed land, flowing w milk & honey" & all that jazz [or lack thereof! ;cp]...I find it very disturbing that most people have to scrape day to day just to keep their nostrils at water level - paycheck to paycheck.

In the few sits where I was in charge, I certainly would not insult my own integrity or someone else's by asking them to perform for no money. Might as well slap 'em in da kisser & insult their "mama's army boots" while i'm at it. ;c)

OK "rant" over, altho not really a rant, per se. No harm done...Thx for letting me have my say. :cp

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 09, 2005 02:25 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

This is the age old musician quandry.

Drumming is fun and so the problem is, most people would do it for free if it was music they liked. Also, there's something to be said for playing "good" music for little to no money. Keith Carlock got the Steely Dan gig because one of the SD guys sat in with Wayne Krantz. The Steely Dan gig brought the Sting gig.

Because so much of success in music is who you know, I say you have to play as much as possible including the free gigs. It DOES hurt, but the reality is those gigs typically don't pay. It's not like if you say no, the next guy gets $500. You always meet other musicians on a gig and people hear you play. If you like the music enough to go do it, I say always do the gig.

If you don't like the music, then it's your call and obviously if you have another source of income you may choose to pass. (I would)

Ah, sorry...to answer the actual ?:

Gas is included in the overall price if it's immediately local. That's just understood.

For a decent commute, figure the miles/mileage & add it to the base price.

For smokey pool hall / bar gigs: ask $100, but be ready to perhaps take $75 - your call. I started my business career back in '82 while still at a "tender young age" at $40 a night in a small smokey hang [I thought I was in pig-slop heaven!], which eventually graduated to a whopping $50 a night, 9 or 9:30p to 1:30 or 2a. 40-45 min on, 15-20 off. But the yrs have since gone by, & cost of living / "inflation" has gone up. ;c)

Corp gigs: like was said earlier, $2-500, depending on who what where.

If you're OTR, don't expect less than $125-150-175-200 a day, unless you're touring w a national recording headliner omn a major label, then it's much more & usually [closer to] union wages anyway.

Always inquire about accomodations, AWA food? perdiem on those that apply [corp, parties, etc]

Studio is another matter...I've done them, but I don't really consider the scene here to be like that of LA. That's between you & the artist or engineer or producer. I've done them for as little as $50 for friends, $75 for smaller studios. But I haven't really done these for a career. I'm predominantly the live & touring type. But I am dipping more into recording our own stuff, like Altered does... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

Derek is right, touching on AWA echoing my sentiments in that part of my post. He just said it more nicely [AWA succinctly]. [img]wink.gif[/img]

This raises the whole "problematica" of the "musical whore"... [img]tongue.gif[/img] There are so many folks out there ready & willing to play just to get their musical roxov, AWA the attention...but this eventually wears thin after trying it exclusively as a living, believe me.

The prob is, sheisters & shrewd business people alike understand this. They learn this of musos in general [the eMpTyV / VeHklempt1 syndrome doesn't help the plight either] - that a relatively novice muso will play for next to nothing just to be able to PLAY. Besides, why, just think of the girls [boys?!] who my be looking at me! /;c/ Fuhgidabowdit...

Yep, the competition is fearsome sometimes. That's why it's extremely important to be "on your game" - a pro, who carries themself in a pro manner, w working gear that also looks good, reliable transpo, & the ears & playg skills to match. Did I mention, time skills?
But we all already know all that's a given. ;c)

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 09, 2005 03:24 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

The corporate gigs I do pay ~ 250-300$. Sometimes there's a meal and/or drinks and bandleader will pay for parking. Randy is right, at the local level (where most of us probably are), rarely you'll be asked how much you want. You get a call, it pays this and you take it or leave it. These are local figures; if international top pros would chip in, you would see them go way up.

But I often played for a lot less than that and seldom for a lot more.
Once I've been asked to be in the house band of a new club where they wanted Friday night jazz jam. We would get a % of the door. 1st week I played for 7$, 2nd week for 2 beers, and then split. It was fun, but it was at a time where I was trying to make a living at it.

On the other hand, I once got a call from a singer who produced his own shows. He asked me if I was the best [img]confused.gif[/img] ... You could tell the guy was an amateur and had no clue of how the business worked. I think he took the union book and called guys in alphabetical order (my name being near the top) and asked this question. Feeling that, and having nothing to loose, I said: "Of course!". Okay, so the show is on this date at Montreal's Place des Arts, we rehearse the day before, and I'll pay you $$$$. Well...okay...DEAL! I never thought I would play at this prestigious place for that much dough; man, he could have got Paul Brochu for less than that! So I'm there with the "best" (read: guys wise enough to say they're the best to get the gig). Keyboardist/MD happened to be a top TV pro who had played with Celine Dion, Aldo Nova,...Gig went smoothly, and was one of the best I played, we did a couple more. The guy was not the best singer in the world, but a cool amateur with pockets deep enough to pay for all this.

When I started playing in clubs in 1986, owners paid 400$/night for a band. And today, for the ones that still pay, it's the same amount. It seems that inflation doesn't count for musicians. Bands went from 5, to 4, to 3, to duet with sequences to one-man band. Today's mainstream rock has less keys, so we see the resurgence of larger bands in clubs but they are teenagers. I might do a rock gig in a club once in a while. But they have to be sufficiently spaced in time so that I have the time to forget how painful it was the last time to play until 3am, tear down, drive one-hour back home, go to sleep at 5am and having the kids jumping on me at 6:30am screaming: "Wake up dad, it's a beautiful day!!" [img]graemlins/sleepy.gif[/img]

As Tombo said; locally, though, unfortunately, it's often still usually a take it or leave it scenario, with not nearly as much pull power as at the "upper levels"....

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When I started playing in clubs in 1986, owners paid 400$/night for a band. And today, for the ones that still pay, it's the same amount. It seems that inflation doesn't count for musicians. Bands went from 5, to 4, to 3, to duet with sequences to one-man band

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He is right there also. Inflation is imposed in the inverse upon hapless musicians worldwide...
[img]frown.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_down.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/grrr.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/gulp.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 09, 2005 03:26 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

Ok, it's not a delusional 4am for me anymore...

Some good points made, but really the "hobby" drummers playing for free are taking NOTHING away from the pro drummers out there... do you think a hobbyist drummer will get a gig over a pro? Probably not.

It is 80% about who you know in music biz... so you gotta play as much as you can, with as many musicians in as many places, wether it's for $1'000'000.00 or $0.00.

LOL - matricks... hahah you loon! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Actually, Chris, you are pretty much right AW. [img]wink.gif[/img]
In the grand scheme, it really isn't going to make a real dent. Good point.

I went back & re-read Gary's post: "...or it's studio work (which is usually a pain in the ass)I charge as much as I can get out of principle or I don't bother" Pretty much says it all. No harm done. His choice. It's all good.

I was responding more to the content of cjbdrm's post. I'll let the rant stand out of principle of it's own commentary of details [I didn't necessarily say, "merit"]... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Holla'...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 09, 2005 05:45 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

No offense, but the 'hobbyists' playing gigs for free or for very little money make it harder for the 'pros' trying to make a living- or at least get paid what they're worth. It sets a precedent.

I've got a day gig out of necessity, but I would never play for free. My talent is worth something. I'd rather stay at home than be exploited by a club owner or bandleader. That's the one thing I don't miss about working in NYC. (That's another sore subject...)

Good point, but I'll counter with this: Anton Fig touched on this topic briefly at a clinic. He said that often times he'll play gigs he wants play "only for cab fare or sometimes even for free."

I'm not qualified to have an opinion on this becuase I'm a hobbyist drummer (at best), but I find Anton's thoughts to put some good perspective on it.

I don't believe in doing the freebie either, unless it's a session for some up and commer that I might consider doing on spec in hopes that person will go to the big show and remember that I "helped" him or her get there. Aside from that, "show me the money." I have a day job in a corporate environment where, after 11 years I have been "promoted" several times for little or no raise (I actually made more 6 years ago than I do now, in bonuses and benefits). The corporate world has seen fit to reward hard work and dedication by putting their hands in our pockets and taking whatever benefits and perks they can from the little guys and hiring more Executive Vice Presidents, CEO's, CFO's, COO's, ASSO's...

Enough of that rant. All of the gigs I take pay something because it took me a long time to hone what meager talent I do have and gear does not come cheap either. And when there's a family involved with 2 kids in private schools (both A students, they will support me well when I'm too old to remember their names) the $40 I make for a 2 hour easy load-in jazz gig on a wednesday night will buy pizza for dinner on thursday. However, if there's a gig that I deem a pain in the arse, I will expect someone to pay dearly for my services. That doesn't mean I say I want x amount right off the bat. That assumes my name is Vinnie Weckl and I'd better back that up. I'll first ask what the gig pays and if it's not up to what I want I'll usually say something like, "I don't know, it's downtown traffic and the Drake is a real pain to load in and you know how expensive parking is." At that point, if they want me bad enough they will up the ante. If not, then probably any schmuck with an export kit will do and I'll either look for something else or stay home and watch tv with the family. At least having the day job allows me options. I remember playing for a living and doing some pretty sick gigs because I had to, as time would running short on the calendar and I took something just to fill the night.

Now, if you are one of the top cats in town and the phone is always ringing, go for it. Get as much as you can for every gig. I see nothing wrong with that. But if you're not the first call guy, then I think you wait untill they tell you what the gig pays and then you determine; if all the conditions are right is that amount fair or not? If not that's when you negotiate. It's not wrong to ask for extras if you truly believe the money is not what it should be. I caution against going too far, however, unless you have that something extra to offer talentwise (and personality as well) as you will soon develop a reputation for being that average player who demands too much and you'll find the phone will ring less and less. Let your rep build first, then as your phone rings more ask for more.

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Originally posted by Rhythmatist:
as your phone rings more ask for more.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is a good guideline. I can definitely see how it's a matter of starting low and gradually working yourself up the ladder, making sure to not outpace your improvement of reputation!

Rhythmatist,
We must work in the same place! Your rant is pretty much right on the (lack of) money.
Having a day job relieves the stress of the casual gig. You can take the gig if you want to and enjoy the process without the pressures of making rent. I've done both as well and found that having a 401K, steady income, health benefits, and paid holidays makes more sense for my family and future. I played in the beginning because I loved the process but later tried to survive on it and lost my initial love of the process. Now I can enjoy playing for the sake of playing.

IMO, this is an AGE related issue. When you're young (18-24) you go for it and play with as many quality cats as possible for whatever change you can scratch. Hopefully you got some drum goods and your name will rise locally. It's called paying dues. Most of us aren't so fortunate to start playing in a group (Aerosmith) and have a job for 20 plus years. Yopu have a better chance of winning the state lottery twice!

After a certain age, playing for free (unless it's a gig w/buddies, etc.) or you are in the "hobby" stage of life decreases, especially if someone wants lots of rehearsal time...that's the killer!

If you are "into" a certain scene, the money thing is fairly obvious because it is a known thing with the other players. Nobody I know here in LA does a wedding gig for free if they are a jobbing drummer. If a bandleader can hire a hobbyist drummer, they usually don't. Most of the guys I know stick with a group of players they can rely on.

Yeah,

Rehearsals is a whole different matter. I usually ask for 1/2 the gig rate unless it's preperation for a tour, then we'll arrange something more long-term...

MP

I think of it as having two careers, definately not a hobby (the majority of the time I'm gigging more now than I did when it was "for a living"). I have the luxury of being able to take a vacation day to do those daytime gigs that pay well and I get the paid day off as well. It's actually a pretty sweet situation (and with health and retirement etc. thrown in). Yes, the corporate world has taken a lot from me, but it has also given me flexibility that I didn't have before in terms of being selective about what gigs I choose to take (of course I whore myself out once in a while, who doesn't). It's all in what you make it.
No, I can't do the big tour anymore, but I'd rather stay home with the family at this point anyway and there are plenty of mini-tours that come around to get me out of town now and then.

I think the last rehearsal I did for a freelance gig was about six years ago (for about $150 for a two hour concert run through). People know me well enough to know that I'll get the job done. This is what paying your dues does for you over time. I had a guy insist that I attend a rehearsal with his band for a one night subbing gig . I asked him to make a couple calls to some mutual friends and he called back and said don't bother with the rehearsal, see you at the gig. I told him if it made him feel better he could send me some tapes and I would make sure I had all the intros, endings etc. together so he didn't have to worry. the gig was seamless. I also remember subbing a gig two years ago with one of those radio station bands that I subbed for awhile back. The radio personality I had worked with before asked if I still remembered his tunes. I told him I still had the charts I made on file and he said good enough, see you at the gig. After it was over his on-air partner was just freakin' out over the fact that I could walk in and sub the gig as if I had been playing it for years. It's called being prepared and being professional.

I hate rehearsals anyway. you have to sit around waiting for the p a to get tweaked and for the other players to get their instruments together and vocal parts to be run through etc. etc..... All this after dragging a full kit up or down stairs and being the first one there, set up, ready to go while waitng for someone else's rude ass who's an hour late to arrive. "Sorry dudes, I had this other 'thing' I had to do (talk shit with his girlfriend on the cell in his car), really important." For me, send me tapes, I'll make charts in the comfort of my home and I'll play the gig like it was mine.