The fateful decision approaches....

I have been playing with a pretty successful rock band in London for a year, just got a deal and the record is starting to get some attention. We are being booked to play some festivals this summer and maybe a support gig with a name band etc.

The inevitable questions of time, commitment and job are starting to surface. I have a wife and 2 kids, a pretty successful job and a lifestyle that is geared around my job and not music. What am I going to do if it really starts to kick off? Give it all up because I don't want to risk my lifestyle and home life? or just go for it and hope I don't end up broke without a wife?

How much money can we really make in this day and age in a band?

HOD wisdom required....

No wisdom here, just can relate as I am going through a very similar decision currently.
Tough to sit in a comfortable position and be willing to give it up for a potentially better scene...that is future related.

Oh that faith is a hard thing to do with confidence!

The thing is Pocket....when we're lying on our death beds (a long time from now hopefully)are we really gonna look back and say "gee I'm really glad I didn't go on tour with that band and try and make it, I never would have been able to get that flat screen TV and keep up the payments on my car".

I know that's a simplistic way of looking at it but life is about grabbing your chances when they do present themselves....right?

Hopefully you're more concerned with family than flat screen TV's...

I asked this question to Peter Erskine last week on zildjian.com

He said: FOLLOW YOUR INSTINCTS!

You know your situation better than anyone. No amount of chatting back and forth here will tell the whole story...the only thing I would say is take it one day at a time...don't look too far into the future...the possibilities may overwhelm you.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 14, 2005 10:11 AM: Message edited by: cjbdrm ]</font>

cjbdrm,
well said....i might add...follow your heart. kinda the same as instincts. but it may help being worded differently. one things for sure. you will NEVER know by going half way. you must walk through that wall of fear with faith. nothing worth having....like a dream, comes without sacrifice. if you follow your heart, you will be rewarded greatly no matter what the outcome. either way...you win, because you went for it. but you got to go all the way.
good luck.

I think family (kids) are happy if everyone else is. I think we tend to get too hooked up on the materialistic stuff, hence the comment about Flat Screens and Cars.

I agree that the decision is mine and there probably isn't any advice apart from the obvious...." do want your heart tells you stuff"

Practical experience and interesting examples are what I'm looking for.....if they are out there.

Thanks ZW. If I go for it I will give it all I have....

Gary, it's a though choice, but you're in a good position because you have 2 things happening to choose from, and a lot of people don't have any.
The bottom line is if you're happy with your actual job, if you're not, any amount of flat screens and cars are going to hide that.

In my case, I'm a full time musician, but I can tell you that 80% of my time is wasted in no-musical activities, like traveling, airports, waiting in hotel rooms, traffic jams trying to catch a rehearsal, lines on banks etc. etc..... or resting of all that sh**t!!!!,
and half of the other 20%, I'm doing eternal soundchecks hitting the bas drum for 15 minutes, snare for 10 etc.
I'm not complaining at all, I fell fortunate and I'm as happy as I can be, but sometimes I think that a guy with a day job have more time to really play than I have, so maybe you should keep that in mind when you take your desicion.
Good luck!
[img]cool.gif[/img]

Pedro i was hoping someone would say that!!

Isn't it true to say that anyone who has to work for a living spends most of their time in line's, in airports, dealing with a$%holes etc.

I think I would rather be beating my bass drum than beating my head against the wall for fifteen years because I haven't tested my talent in the real world. It may not turn out to be what I thought it would be but at least I can say I tried.

Thx for your comments amigo

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Originally posted by GaryL:
Pedro i was hoping someone would say that!!

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Upss!!!, I think I just ruined a promising career!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

Just don give my address to your band mates!! [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Figure out what you want to do and what will make you happy.

How is the band organized?

What's your share of the songwriting and publishing?

How large is your piece of the pie to be if it does get big?

What will it cost you to pursue this, in terms of lost income, insurance, medical, etc? You have a family to think of now -- you're not 16 anymore. Once you make a baby, you are obligated to feed, clothe and house it. Most of us have difficulty doing that for ourselves, let alone others, without some other source of income. Can the family manage for a while on your spouse's income?

If you have not already, read Bobby Borg's book on the music business. There's another by a guy named Woolf. Likewise, there are music business related links to CD Baby and Sonic Bids that you -- and the band -- should be intimately familiar with.

If your band does not have an organizational agreement in writing, get thee to an entertainment attorney now and draw one up that won't you high and dry. If your partners don't want to hear it, bail now, because they do not have sufficient business awareness to keep themselves from getting themselves -- and you -- screwed over by the darker side of the music business.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Riddim:
How is the band organized?

What's your share of the songwriting and publishing?

How large is your piece of the pie to be if it does get big?

What will it cost you to pursue this, in terms of lost income, insurance, medical, etc? You have a family to think of now -- you're not 16 anymore. Once you make a baby, you are obligated to feed, clothe and house it. Most of us have difficulty doing that for ourselves, let alone others, without some other source of income. Can the family manage for a while on your spouse's income?

If you have not already, read Bobby Borg's book on the music business. There's another by a guy named Woolf. Likewise, there are music business related links to CD Baby and Sonic Bids that you -- and the band -- should be intimately familiar with.

If your band does not have an organizational agreement in writing, get thee to an entertainment attorney now and draw one up that won't you high and dry. If your partners don't want to hear it, bail now, because they do not have sufficient business awareness to keep themselves from getting themselves -- and you -- screwed over by the darker side of the music business.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's totally right. So your singer or GTR guy writes all the songs, that means when you sell a gazillion albums, they get gazillion and you get squat. You need a piece of the pie.

I turn down a lot of offers to record with other groups, one, because they offer pennies, and won't give a piece. I had a group want me to record 10 songs for 600 dollars. And they were pretty difficult metal songs. The only way I would do that is if I get a cut of publishing. So I haven't even bothered to do it. 600 that's 60 dollars a song, which really means listening to the demos, writing out charts, creating drum parts, practicing them, rehearsals, no set time limit in the studio. You are looking at a lot of time invested for pennies.

If you truly feel that things are happening, then get your attorney, have him write up a decent publishing contract that gives you an equal piece of the pie.

RIDDIM pretty much said it all.

DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!

Joking

The previous posts regarding the music buisness have said what I was going to say.

Just to add to them:
If your band is sign to a major label (Sony, EMI, Universal) don't forget that who ever is on that contract has to payback all the money the record company puts into the band and it adds up to a lot! Most bands don't make any money on thier first album unless they sell over a million units. If you think your band can sell a couple million albums and your are getting a fair cut then you should be allright. If you can write or co-write the songs on the album (CD) then you are in a better position(you don't even need to be signed to the record company contract). Remember, after all is said and done the songwriter makes most of the money and royalties never stop as long as the song is being played, performed or recorded.
If you are in a good position at your day job can't you take a leave of absence?
Good luck with your future and don't forget to enjoy the ride!

The music industry is totally corrupt and geared toward ripping off artists. If you decide to play that game, be prepared for a vow of poverty. Just try to get your current employer to give you a 6 month leave of absence so that you can return if (and when) need be.

I think you're better off keeping the job, modifying your schedule with employer (if possible) and doing the music stuff on your own (without label involvement). This is easier said than done, I realize, but it's the only way to do it right.

I'm with DSOP. Unless you hate your day job, try to modify your schedule and keep both going, even if you must negotiate a leave of absence or use vacation/sick time.

I agree it's not about the Plasma TV and car, but financial stress is no fun either and unless you don't like your wife, make sure she's OK with whatever you decide. Some of our heroes have gone on the road and watched their personal lives fall apart from the comfort of the tour bus.

If you do the band thing, what the guys have recommended regarding publishing money is absolutely critical. I'm sorry to say there is NO point in doing it if they don't include you on this source of income. You'll just end up having to catch up at your day job if they won't give you writing credit, pure and simple.

I with you the absolute best of luck in any case. Let us know how things go for you. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

That's why I love this board. Knowledge, empathy and honesty.

We have a band meeting tonight and I feel 50% better informed than I did yesterday. The publishing is critical and I have heard that from a number of other sources. The difficulty is getting enough of it I suppose....I read in Stings biography that the other members of the Police were constantly getting upset because Sting had his own publishing contract with Virgin, whilst they were signed to A & M for a record deal. He made many millions more than them and I suppose fairly because he did write the songs.

Thanks for the advice and the combine work music strategy has to be the way to go I agree.

Two questions:

1) What does your wife have to say about it?

2) What kind of rock music, i.e. is there a market for it in Europe, and possibly other places? Realistically, what is the market for what you are doing, and if you were to step away from you situation and see your band and music for what it is, how high do you see the ceiling for the type of music you are putting out? What i mean is, do you actually see this going the distance or is this project you are in the type that will get to 80% of making it big (just inherently style of music you are playing) and then hit the wall for the success it can acheive in the market it is in. I've done things where, no matter how good things looked or how much fun i had, no matter how pumped everyone else in the band was, and how optimistic they were; if i was to be realistic and step back, i would see it and take it for what it was... a good project but nothing to bank on as a long-term success. These are just critical questions you have to ask. From a business standpoint, is this a good venture... how would you advise a friend about this? I don't know your age, you could be younger than me, older, i have no idea... all that being said, ask yourself if you are really hoping this will happen because you see it as a 'last chance' type of thing, or are you actually seeing possible success from an objective viewpoint? I've had buddies who see certain things for more than they are because they see it as their 'last chance' because of their age and all... also, i have seen people turn gigs down where they may have opened some really good doors, but didn't because they couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel cause they were too 'old' and jaded.

Take a step back, optimism and pessimism aside and look at it for what it is. See everything for what it is, every possibility, weigh every option to the best of your ability. Do it with emotions involved, then try and take emotions out of it and logically judge it... logically, will you be happier if you take the chance and the risks, or is it not worth it? I mean, just because you look at it logically, doesn't mean you will end up taking the 'safe' route, it just means you will be advising yourself without the emotional aspect clouding your vision... from what you know of yourself and your family, what do you think are the logical emotional repercussions that will be involved and which life do you see yourself and your family the happiest in? Try every angle... if you are honest with yourself and really try and see it for what it is, you will know soon enough what you are to do [img]wink.gif[/img]

Best of luck to you! I wish you the best!

P.S. Also remember, speaking of the death-bed scenario... there are alot of things i will wonder about, i.e. not taking certain paths in my music career, not getting out there enough; also, remember, drumming isn't everything. Here's a personal story: When i was 16 my great-grandmother lived with my mom and i because she was very old and became an invalid in her old age. Well, one day when i was practicing, i came upstairs and she had died when i was practicing. It was bound to happen, her passing, but it was very strange because really, that hour that i could have spent with her, her last hour (which i had no idea that it was her last hour) but i was in the basement, banging away on the drums... just one of those things where i still feel bad about to this day. I feel bad that my ex-wife had to play second fiddle to my music... i always come back around to no matter how much i love the drums, the drums really can't love you back; they are a solitary instrument, no subsitute for alot of things, especially family and relationships.

When you are on that same bed, looking back on life, are you going to wish you had taken the gig? Perhaps are you going to wish you would have stayed and spent more time with your wife and family? I don't know, but i do know that when i am on the same bed, i am gonna wish that i had spent more time with important people, not on important gigs... and if your gig makes your life better, and the people around you happier, then do it, happiness for you and your family is the key... just think it over, there is no way to truly know, but it is an important decision. As long as you compromise, nothing has to be a ball and chain.

One will always want what you can't have... you have a family but no great gig, well, you're gonna covet the gig. I, on the other hand, have all the time in the world on the drums but would trade alot of it for close relationships and quality time that involves more than practicing to a click.

Compromise and let what happens happen... if you force it, that is when stuff breaks.

Adding anything more here from me will just cloud the issue mate, everything has really been said.

Great input from Pedro, Riddum, Derek and Matricks. Please let us know how this band meeting went and what descision you came to!

By the way, what band is it? Do you play much in London? Let me know and I'll come out and support you guys...

MP

Geez Matricks now you've really got me thinking...

I,m 34. Is it a last chance thing....hmmm you got me on that one. Honestly there is an element of that I think. Not because I feel I'm gonna be past it...I don't think guys ever feel like that. I think it is more a how you look thing if you want to make it in a commercialy succesful band. I might get hung for that comment but I hope you know what I mean.

Do I think this bands music is in the commercial Zone...yeah I think it is. If someone can tell me how to post stuff I will post a tune for you all to listen to. We have a pretty well known producer signed to mix some of the stuff and a decent management company.

As for the wife and family. There is NO question of me abandoning or risking that. The question I have in my mind is whether my wife is going to feel insecure if it starts to take off and make sure I manage that situation. That should be ok 'cause we have a great relationship. She is understandably nervous that I will just run off on a European tour or something, not earn any cash and put us under financial pressure which, as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, ain't fun. I will have to be careful on that one.

As for death bed thoughts? We'll all have a bunch of "why didn't/did I's" to contend with, I just don't want this to be one of them. It could go either way.....or even a damned if I do, damned if I don't scenario.

The key in my mind is to try and let it happen as best I can, with one eye on the positive and another eye on the other things that make life shine.............family, health and friends.

Gary,
What's the name of your band?

MP

Groovemeister

I like your handle by the way....nice touch.

I'm gonna refrain from the band name publicly...because I don't want to subject the bands music to the HOD microscope whilst I'm grapling with what to do.

We have a couple of gigs in London at the end of this month which I will PM you about. I'd love to meet someone from HOD in person and your posts are always well considered.

Are you full time or juggling like me?

G

Gary- Awhile ago was an offer for a drummers seat in Phat Phunktion. (From what they told me), I got the gig, but I turned it down because there were too many uncertainties. It depends on what you're up against... How often will you get home, will your job take you back if it doesn't work, will you be "living" on the road, does the band have sponsorships... There are too many questions that I have for you to tell you what to do. But, I go on, those obvious things. "Making it" just doesn't happen anymore by just going on the road, to see what will happen. Does it? I don't think so. It's not worth it to me, to leave everything behind, if you can't come back to it, or if there aren't any guarantees. It's just too scary to do, nowadays.

Quote:

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I'm gonna refrain from the band name publicly...because I don't want to subject the bands music to the HOD microscope whilst I'm grapling with what to do.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sounds like there is more to the story...based on your information, committing full-time to a band you can't even name publically, would be a bad idea.

Man, this is an awesome thread. Getting down to the REAL nitty-gritty...way too heady for much [I didn't say, "all"] of the "bub-gum or 16th DB notes & chunky gtr riff" crowd.

Some great introspection from all of you, which changed what I initially would have said, since it's been covered. This is a part of what makes this a great board to have around...I can't really add much more...but rather than re-list some already great specifics advice, I'll venture out onto the philosophical or perhaps spiritual...

...remember: also NOTHING in life is REALLY for certain. I say that NOT to further confuse the issue, but if you truly look at life, nothing is guaranteed for any specific length of time, really. I know there are many people who may like to think this is so, but it is in fact not. If things go well for someone for a 40 yr stretch - don't worry, the roller coaster will happen, whether large or small. & we're ALL in the same boat here. [Before anyone discounts what I just said, please continue reading.] So, in truth, the only "control" we have in life is the decisions we make. But the outcome itself is really NOT in our hands, OTHER THAN the choices we make in reaction [or "proaction"] to, AWA the management of, as there are palllenty of outside factors ready to hurl themselves our way at any given moment, which we have NO control over whatsoever. I know this sounds like I'm elininating the concept of personal responsibilty in the equation, but that is not what is being said at all, & couldn't be further from the truth. It's kind of a "dichotomy" of sorts, for lack of better wording.

So, everything's a risk. Everything. Sitting at home is a risk. Going OTR w a tourg band is a risk. If you sit & think about it too long & hard, you can psyche yourself out for fear of anything that could poss go awry. If you don't think about it ENOUGH, then you run another 'risk' of missing a key element in the point of decision.

No one in here can really help w the decision - but some of this great advice may steer you in the right direction. But then you already knew that. [img]cool.gif[/img]

BTW - don't think of your age like that. While it is true that the industry itself tends to do this, don't burden yourself w their BS trip. I HAVE seen guys w greying hair playing w some big name acts, albeit country & other non-mainstream rock styles. But at the age you mentioned, a little hair color & style, if that is a prob, can go a long way. Ever see someone in the big time who you thought was a lot younger & more attractive up close? Lights, camera focus, angles, & lenses, & make-up peeps often do wonders. Besides, it's usually the frontperson[s] that own[s] the primary burden of this responsibitly or assumption... [img]wink.gif[/img]

Besides, look at the Rolling Stones. Yes I know they were established in their early 20s, but still... [img]wink.gif[/img]

* Finally, remember this AW - nothing in life was ever gained by not taking risks. It's up to us to decide which risk is the "riskier" [staying where we are or sticking our neck out].

The Comfort Zone, AWA the "perceived" CZ, is indeed often difficult to hurdle.

No absolute solution, just more food for thought.
Our lives will play out regardless.

I guess aft reading this, you're back to "Square One." So, I guess, go back to the 4th parg up fr this one * [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 16, 2005 06:02 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

Fuse,
A great post man. Things will play themselves out for sure...

Gary, no problem, I respect your choice man. PM me, it'd be great to hook up with ya...

MP

Is the C.D out yet? What kind of support is the label giving you?
How much work do you have with this band?
What kind of fee does your band charge?
There are many factors.
I say go for it. You can always go back to another job.
The reality is that musicians that tour, and are fairly successful at it make 4 times as much as the average successful 9-5er, and they play music while traveling. If you're not banking at least $2500 per week plus a daily per diem for spending, then something's wrong.

Avi, either you're trying to real hard to be a prick, or you're mentally retarded.
The guy needs help with a serious decision, and you give him a hard time for not telling us the band name. Maybe he doesn't want to deal with all the bullshit comments. Ever think of that?
Anyhow Gary, i agree with Matricks and SDK, do what's best for you. Make sure you have your business together. And if you do go for it, best wishes, and get a ton of endorsements!

'He' alone reserves the right to withhold the name.

And I, for one, don't blame 'him.'

I think perhaps what the one poster was saying is that, if it's not a name that's fairly recognizable, then don't do it [?]

Discuss it w a trusted friend, & if that's not poss [img]wink.gif[/img] , then [as was already said] consult a reputable music attorney.

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The guy needs help with a serious decision

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With a thread title like, The fateful decision approaches.... more than a couple of warning bells go off.

If gary is worried about constructive criticism on a message board, he is going to have to develop thick skin...quickly.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 16, 2005 09:06 PM: Message edited by: avi_bb ]</font>

My vote goes to retarded. Anyone else?

Okay guys,

Let's cool it, there's no point laying into the guy. [img]wink.gif[/img] Avi looks new here, give him a chance!!!

Back to the topic in hand... [img]wink.gif[/img]

MP

As far as what i was saying about the age thing, i wouldn't want to imply that you should consider not doing it if you are past a certain age, not at all (but i think you understand that). I just figure it is best to know all one's motivations before making a life-changing decision.

You do sound like you have supportive family and that is wonderful. Your wife will be insecure at first, no doubt about it because, well... there WILL be a lack of security at first, as with all changes in life. As long as you logically plan for as many possibilities and outcomes as you can, then once you follow your heart things should turn out well for you, whether ideal circumstance or the goal is or isn't reached you will have done enough planning to cover your bases and not blinded chased a dream only to be left out in the cold.

From what i have heard, from what you have said, you sound like you have put more thought and planning into it that i initially thought, and you seem to have a good support base at home. I say cover your bases and then do what you feel lead to do... as long as you plan for all the outcomes and prepare your family, then i think whatever steps you decide to take will be the right ones for you... you sound level-headed about it, i think you will make the right choice, whatever that may be [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Wow!!! Heavy thread!!

Gary... not much else I can add except for my own personal story.

Having grown up around some pretty heavy pros in this industry (all kinds of musicians), I can tell you it's a feast or famine type of thing. All the input regarding the "business" side of it has become more a reality, especially in the last 20-30 years. I can remember when I was studying my butt off to become the best player I could be, I wanted to do what my freinds were doing. But I came to a crossroads in my life around the age of 26. Should I just jump in and "do it", or should I stick with my profession that brings me a foundation and quality of life?

Watching some of these players..... I've seen them go from rags to riches and visa versa. In todays world, it's a complex balance of business, marketing, schmoozing, talent, how good you are at opening doors by yourself and who you know.

As far as family is concerned..... well..... that's a big one. I always thought that if I decided to have a family, that my life would no longer be mine. That it belonged to my family. Certainly that didn't mean I would be dead, but thinking more about the "quality" of life, and not so much about possessions or status. No more taking extreme risks both physically or financially. My life would be seen through my kids eyes. And while I was making a living, I would be preparing for those golden years so my wife and I would live comfortably in our older age and our kids could depend on me for those times of need.

Now unless you really have a good game plan. I think the family should come 1st. You're what?? 34 now?? Believe you me... 40 comes fast, and then 50, then BAM!!! All of a sudden your back starts hurting, your joints don't work as they used to, and you're starting to think.... "I don't want to work this hard anymore". And think of the lifestyle of a pro musician.... living in a suitcase for weeks at a time, mostly playing in the evening when you could be home in front of the TV relaxing, or spending time with your kids/wife. Think of how it will effect your family and try to look through their eyes as best you can.

Most of the guys that have made the big bucks, and continue to make the big dollars are usually those that are of great talent (not to say you're not). People that are capable of re-inventing themselves. Or at the very least, great or rediculous players that would always have a ton of work if they chose to do so. There are a lot of "has beens" in this business. Alot of fads that last for a while, but then once the styles changes or peoples listening trends change, then you're out in the cold.

I don't envy you my friend. This is a very heavy decision. But I'm sure you'll do whats right in your heart and your mind. Think it through logically, even though the thought of making music for many people sounds like alot of fun. Don't let your emotions rule your common sense.

Couldn't've said it any better myself [& didn't [img]wink.gif[/img] ]

Of course, when I implied that anything & everything is risky, & nothing was ever gained w/out risk, that in no way meant throwing [uninformed] caution to the wind & diving in solely on emotion...

When I was younger, I too used to think that if I got married, settled down, &/or had kids it "would be all over" for me...not true in the least...but your priorities do [& must] change. Children & a great wife, family are THE most important things you'll ever have in your life. Once I grew out of my "self-faze" [debatable [img]wink.gif[/img] ], I began to understand this more plainly than ever. Now, I don't have a wife & kids, but a GF - [but I'm purely a musician by trade, so how long this will last is up for grabs! [img]wink.gif[/img] ] But I'm surrounded by family, & am an uncle several times over & can plainly see that this is more important than gold.

BION, it may be a sizeable part of it, but life is not just about me & my kit... [heresy you say?] ;c)

This thread has rapidly approached essential reading...["save as" .txt file 1, 2] ;c)

Those last two posts by mat & J'sM [well, all of 'em really] were superb - they said it well.
[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 17, 2005 04:14 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

mech,

i loved the post! i remember somehow talking my way into a gig w/ a gentleman by the name of alvin mckinney back in like 94. it was linda taylor (drew carey's MD), jervony collier, rique pantoja, mike smith, and a few names i can't remember. the gig was great, the music was awesome.

we played the spud at pasadena (no longer alive). i had just come back from seoul (i was checking out the music scene there as well - left cuz it was crappy music, couldn't see me raising my family abroad and had to smoke / drink in all business affairs - it's a cultural thang.) and was hoping to start a carrier in music in the states. believe me it was a rush to meet these working cats. all really nice people. but the thing that struck me the most was 1) i'm not the kind of person who can live without a stead paycheck. i hate UNCERTAINTY. 2) i knew what i wanted the most - which was to be married relatively young, have a family, a place to call our own and enjoy life with the love of my life. soooooo, when i talked to some of these guys and by what they were telling me - it was something i DIDN'T WANT.

* they were always on the road, and living outta
their suitcases.

* it wasn't necessarily the music they liked.

* some of them who had kids had to re-introduce themselves to their kids when they got back from tour.

* it is definitely feast or famine.

* i wanted a 401k for my retirement and health insurance for my family.

of course there are exceptions but for the most part it seemed like this was the case for alot of the musicians that i was starting to work with.

this has been a surprisingly great thread. surprised cuz i actually had some sort of experience of my own to share, and to have crystallized what i had always thought about my desision - i'm glad i finished school first, like my mom told me to. then again - that's just me [img]smile.gif[/img]

hope this helps.