Teaching advice

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March 15th, 2005, 09:15 PM
Lee Collins

I'm interested to know what you guys think of certain aspects of teaching. 3 things in particular: speed a student plays an exercise, counting aloud and hand position/grip. I'm very fussy about insisting on all 3 things but I'm starting to wonder if I'm being a bit too rigid about them.

First off, these students aren't experienced players and for the most part, aren't what I would call natural or gifted players. They're secondary school students who happen to quite like drums and choose it as one of their instruments for school exams.

I find that a lot of students keep making mistakes when playing various beats and fills. Very simple beats and fills to us lot at HoD but not to these students. Fair enough. So I tell them to slow it down and more often than not they then get through the exercise without a mistake. The problem in a lot of cases is that many students just can't seem to play at 'dead' slow tempos. I mean, REALLY slow. They play the hihat part, IMO, faster than their brain can keep up with the whole pattern, and don't seem to be able to leave enough space between each hihat stroke in order to analyse each new part of the beat or fill coming their way. Should I keep insisting that they play everything in 'slow motion' until they get it, or leave them at their own comfortable speed until they get it, even if it takes them ages? Bear in mind, many don't practise much, maybe because they don't own a kit, or they can't get into the drum room at the schools much, or they're plain lazy.

Counting aloud. I always insist that they count every 1/4, 1/8th and 1/16th note out loud as they play, yet most of them say they don't like doing it, they find it too hard. They'll give it a go, but before they've reached the second bar, they've stopped counting or they've ended up mumbling it to themselves. They may still get through the exercise without counting, but I still think they should count aloud for better accuracy and better understanding of what they're playing. How much do you think I should keep insisting?

Hand position. While many maintain a correct grip, lots of them tend to let their hands or maybe just their right hand turn/drop sideways, such as playing the hihat or ride or even going to the floor tom. I prefer palms down all the way. Also, some of them don't maintain the correct fulcrum, so they'll close the gap between thumb and index and the stick ends up in the middle indent of their finger instead of the first. I know terry bozzio uses that too as his 'powergrip' but I'm not sure whether I should encourage or discourage it since I always strive to maintain first indent and thumb fulcrum. What do you think?
March 15th, 2005, 10:17 PM
XNavyDrummer

Good questions Rudy. Regarding the slow tempo situation, I've found over the past few years that using a metronome with (a very annoying) voice counting in quarters, eighths or sixteenths has been extremely helpful in executing passages at "painfully slow" tempos. As they master the tempo, I gradually increase the metronome. I'm doing hour lessons now and sometime will spend up to three quarters of the lesson just on one difficult passage. I also do the same with play-along CDs where I'll loop the problem section and slow it way down. This has proven to be a very successful technique and I think it builds the students confidence. They leave the lesson knowing that with time and attention to detail they can master some difficult things.
March 15th, 2005, 10:46 PM
LDGuy

Being a student, i'll have a go, but don't quote me on this... hehehe...

1. I think many students tend to have a problem with playing EXACTLY what's written. Some just can't, but others don't want to. So the teacher comes up with the "studio" situation thingy. Yeah sure i'll play the thing. Ah. I made a mistake. Oh well. Students don't want to play like that, and often it's a subconcious thing. I've never met anyone other than me who practices to sight read. I mean really sight read, note for note shit. But IMO that's the only way your gonna get signed to do your sessions (even if they are paying you shit all!). You gotta play that thing and you've got to make it sound good, and you gotta do it fast and in one take. That only comes with practice, and if your guy can't do that then he should seriously think about continuing drumming. IMO anyway. Lol.

2. This is one of the areas which bothers me. Weckl talks about this in his Natural Evolution vids. I would never be in a situation when counting aloud would be a good thing to do. When your playing live, no. When your in the studio, no. When your writing with your band, no. Why should it be something that should be practiced then? IMO, the drummer should be able to play what's written on the page without the need to count 1e+a2e+a3e etc., because being able to play anything, but when counting, won't help you. Instead, i sing parts. I don't mean sing as in with melody, but rather to create drum sounds in a rhythmic pattern - boom-dack-babooboomdack... I do this when reading a chart for the first time having not seen it before. I know it sounds weird, but i find it a lot better than counting when playing. You've already visualised what your gonna play, so you're halfway there already.

3. Right. Hand position. Everybody has their own version. Myself, i play palms down, as though i am playing classical snare drum, because thats how i practice rudements. To be honest, though, i rarely stay in the same position for long, and mostly that's because of the thing i'm playing on or comfort. But it can get bad. My friend at school has the worst drumstick holding technique i have ever seen. I hate watching him play, and i get the horrible "gig" feeling that makes me want to rip the drumsticks out of his hands and say "NO NO NO NO NO!!! WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOUR DOING????" But i don't really think it's his fault. He's got good intentions, wants to practice his rudements and sight reading (although he did say he wanted to get his double bass so fast it hums). I just think no one has really told him how he should play, and no one has stopped him from playing wrong. Strangely, he has a really relaxed grip in his left hand (almost halfway up the stick) yet still manages to play really stiffly. I think it also has bad effects on his timing, because every so often he'll miss a beat if i'm jamming with him, which makes him a right bugger to play with. But he has potential, but has been slightly spoilt. I don't know who his teacher was before, but i dont think he was very good. Hand technique is one of the most important things about your playing. If you don't get it right within the first year of playing, it can be really difficult to continue, and playing badly becomes a habit. Saying that, there are no rules, and if its comfortable and easy to play, then your own technique is always an option. I just try and remember that established techniques have been established for a reason....

HTH

[ March 15, 2005 06:48 PM: Message edited by: LDGuy ]
March 15th, 2005, 10:55 PM
Dazzler

Very interesting Rudy, I've had to think about those same points in my teaching recently and have actually changed my tack a bit as a result.
What we have to remember is that the majority of the secondry school students we teach, as you mentioned will not end up being professional drummers and our job is to make lessons both musical and fun for them.

I suffer the same problems as you are facing and it's because we are both pationate about the drums and care about the music that we create. To my detriment, I was too beligerant about getting across to my students the points you've raised, even to 10/11 year old kids. I think that there comes a point where you have to say to yourself, 'this child just isn't gonna get this' and for the sake of their enjoyment as well as your sanity, you have to move on.

It's also good to remember that this is our job and we don't want to lose our students for the sake of drilling in a counting excersise to a boy whose clearly got the rhythmic skills of a snail.

The ones who do have a natural flair for the instrument stand out and are an absolute joy to teach, it's just a fact that for the majority of the students we teach, it's simply a whim and something to take them out of science!
March 15th, 2005, 11:24 PM
Lee Collins

Quote:

Originally posted by Dazzler:

drilling in a counting excersise to a boy whose clearly got the rhythmic skills of a snail.

LOL! So true dazzler. Looks like you and me teach basically the same standard of school students. You're right, we do need to keep it as fun as possible. On the other hand, there's pressure from schools that students need to perform a piece fairly regularly at the end of a term or for GCSE, and there's also the ocassional parent who's fussy about what their kid is taught. So I'm forced to teach these kids from a more academic point even when I know they just want to play a few rock beats. If I had it my way, it would be fun pretty much all the way for the students that aren't really that talented or who are, as you rightly said, using drum lessons as an excuse for simply getting out of science or maths. You're also right that there's a point where I need to move on if the student isn't getting something. Yet I also feel guilty or that I've not taught them properly if I do leave them to their bad habits or, own way of doing something that perhaps isn't playing with the best form.

LDGuy, as far as counting aloud, I only try to get them to do it in order to 'ingrain' notation in their mind as well as improve their understanding of timing in relation to what they're reading. So I see it as just something for practising with, not to necessarily use in a real world playing situation.
March 16th, 2005, 12:07 AM
Don Worth

I teach and I like the kid who says I dont like to count or I like the I wont count. Kids today get so much slack in school that they think they can get away with that stuff in private lessons. I tell them I don't care what you don't like but we are going to do it my way. Most students idea of slow is a medium tempo rock beat and have never even thought of playing at 80 let alone 60 bpm. I use the counting out loud on the pad and basic snare drum stuff but still ask them to count it out loud on set when notes do not line up and is all uneven. At least when they count out loud they hear themselves speeding up there talking and does make sense to count and play.
March 16th, 2005, 12:31 AM
Lee Collins

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Worth:
. Most students idea of slow is a medium tempo rock beat and have never even thought of playing at 80 let alone 60 bpm. .

Agreed. The tempo that I mean though when getting them to play dead slow on say a regular 1/8th note 2 and 4 beat, is where the hihat 1/8th notes are equal to about 63 to 66bpm. Not with a metronome, just a rough tempo for them to play at. It's the space between 1/8th notes at that tempo that they don't seem to be able to maintain and so they want to speed it up, like a ferarri that doesn't wanna hold back and is raring to go.

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Worth:
but still ask them to count it out loud on set when notes do not line up and is all uneven. At least when they count out loud they hear themselves speeding up there talking and does make sense to count and play.

Yeah. Today in fact, a student had a fill to play on snare and first tom,( dazzler might know it if he teaches guildhall grade 1 piece 'poppy') which was:

1 e +, 2 e +, 3_+ a, 4 +
He kept playing the '4 +' as '4e', so rushing the '+'. I got him to put the sticks down, and say 'yo-gi-bear, yo-gi-bear, bugs_bun-ny su-san'. He said it all in time, and then when he played it with the sticks, still saying those words, he got it right. Thank god, cos it was driving me nuts, and this kid has been playing 1/4s, 1/8ths and 1/16ths for some time now.

[img]smile.gif[/img]
March 16th, 2005, 04:31 PM
ntbCreative

in regards to tempo.........i make em play with a click and i always get them to count off........i mean every exercise!
hand position........i tell them to drop their sticks to their side then pick em up and ...VOILA!!!...they will figure out if its uncomfy or not by noticing they can execute certain things.
as far as playin slow...if its an advanced or intermediate student...they already know the importance of this method...but if its some kid who wants to just play.......i pick his fave tune and rip it apart and then show him it fast so its jungle or drum and bass......slow swing so its jazz and then play it 1 drop so its reggae and so on....just from their 1 song.
I get them to play it over and over..try to develop a groove or pocket...and i tell them...not to concentrate on how it sounds...more on how it feels...pay attention how long it takes to get to one surface to the next and keep you body motion consitant...dance when you play!!!
I have a rule...if a student can read......toss the books cause its a crutch for them...if they cant but can play...1e+a....lol
so there you have my teachin philosophy..........i make sure they have fun..after all...is that what its supose to be about?
March 16th, 2005, 05:15 PM
Vdrummer

LDGuy, you are wrong about counting. Your approach presupposes you know the rhythm you're attempting. If you do, you don't need to do anything. Counting allows you to decipher and learn rhythms you havent' seen before, find errors faster, and get keep patterns in time. You also need to maintain your grip and hand position. There may be subtle changes within your hands as you execute buzzes, diddles, etc. but those are rarely visible. If it's hard to do, it may mean you're developing your muscles. Good luck.

The students who don't think they know anything about drums, and do what I ask (count, keep their palms down, control the stick) make remarkable progress sometimes, and always outperform students with the mindset that they know better. I get adults or older teens who've wasted so much time, ingrained bad habits to the level they may never catch up with their peers. Grip, counting, transcribing, nailing a click, and being able to play a long exercise without an error are all the skills drummers must do if they want to play after High School, especially professionally. If they just want to play in a rock or punk band, I suppose it really doesn't matter if they can do more than that one thing.
March 16th, 2005, 07:03 PM
Don Worth

I agree that if you already know the pattern counting out loud is not needed. Buit, if you cannot figure out the pattern or your not sure why it does not sound right. COUNT OUT LOUD....and use a metronome. I have a new student for probably the last 6 months, older guy that did the PIT thing a few years back. Takes an hour every week and told me last week that in the first 10 min I have fixed his problem, solved other things he did not even know about and needs to go home and practice right now.......told him, we can still find more stuff to fix.... [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img] It is exactly correct that when the student does and uses all the tools you have given them , they progress right along. It does take them to figure out that if I do what Don tells me, it actually gets better now......not like my friends at school that are still trying to get an even single stroke roll. Glad to hear that teachers are making them count out loud and learn to hold there sticks correct.......YEAH........ [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/pizza.gif[/img] on me!!!!
March 16th, 2005, 07:19 PM
FlamTriplet

Counting out loud is very important, It addresses several areas.

1 It let's you know immediately if you played a wrong beat.

2 It let's you feel where the beat is you are playing.

3 Most importantly, the vibrations your voice creates let you feel the time inside your body. It vibrates the chest cavity, moving the concept of time from your head and hands into your heart.

Another thing I use is the McRhythms method.

Shake--1/4 note
French Fry-1/8th notes
Apple Pie-1e&
Hamburger-1 &a
Watermelon-1e&a
Chicken-1e
ketchup, more-1e a

Any other rhythms will be figured out, but these work wonders with kids who don't get 1e&a etc... I also eventually make them count 1e&a etc.. so they understand better.

[ March 16, 2005 03:21 PM: Message edited by: FlamTriplet ]
March 16th, 2005, 07:33 PM
Lee Collins

Quote:

Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
ketchup, more-1e a

[ March 16, 2005 03:21 PM: Message edited by: FlamTriplet ]

I use mostly cartoon names, but I've been trying for ages to figure out a phrase that captures the rhythm of 1e_a . ketchup_ more ketchup _more
is pretty good. Might use that [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
If you can think of another one for me to use that may be more cartoon based that would be cool too.
March 16th, 2005, 08:40 PM
FuseU1

..I guess Vinnie got 'em "Super-Sized"...
March 16th, 2005, 09:33 PM
Dazzler

Quote:

Another thing I use is the McRhythms method.

McLord help us!

[img]tongue.gif[/img]
March 16th, 2005, 09:49 PM
Lee Collins

Heh, Flamtriplet, I just thought of a McRhythm you could use for this phrase: 1_+a 2e could be 'cheese_quarter pounder'

[img]graemlins/wonder.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
March 16th, 2005, 10:00 PM
Groovemeister

Man,

I am soooo up on this 'counting out loud theory'. I have used it with great results with even the most "ungifted" students.

I implore you all to read a book by a guy called Fred Dinkins called "It's About Time". It's whole premise is using the fifth limb - the voice...

MP
March 16th, 2005, 10:12 PM
FuseU1

Quote:

Originally posted by Groovemeister:
I implore you all to read a book by a guy called Fred Dinkins called "It's About Time". It's whole premise is using the fifth limb - the voice

There's another great book in this line of reasoning...Gary Chestar's New Breed.

Now, I realize that this is NOT a book for beginning or perhaps interm students, but it gives vindication to, & does follow [AWA culminates] the reasoning that GM posted. [img]cool.gif[/img]
March 17th, 2005, 05:36 AM
FlamTriplet

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
ketchup, more-1e a

[ March 16, 2005 03:21 PM: Message edited by: FlamTriplet ]

I use mostly cartoon names, but I've been trying for ages to figure out a phrase that captures the rhythm of 1e_a . ketchup_ more ketchup _more
is pretty good. Might use that [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
If you can think of another one for me to use that may be more cartoon based that would be cool too.<hr /></blockquote>Squidward Tentacles is good for 5 tuplets, of course this phrase is all over Elementary Drum Method.

I personally use Philadelphia.

CocaCola CocaCola Mountain Dew Mountain Dew
Pepsi Pepsi Starbucks Mocha Frappachino....
March 17th, 2005, 05:37 AM
FlamTriplet

Quote:

Originally posted by Groovemeister:
Man,

I am soooo up on this 'counting out loud theory'. I have used it with great results with even the most "ungifted" students.

MP

You mean most students...

[img]tongue.gif[/img]
March 17th, 2005, 08:14 AM
Vdrummer

Counting provides locations for events in a measure.

Some students seem to figure out some basic rhythms fine without counting, but even if they do, I still make sure they go back and count them.

I had an adult student tonight struggling with some patterns in a triplet drumset solo I wrote. Pretty simple stuff, but once he started counting, he went from once or twice through the measure he was repeating to 7 reps. Not earthshaking but often success is measured in inches, not miles.

Now if we could just get them to practice s-l-o-w-l-y!

Brad
March 17th, 2005, 01:27 PM
drumgod1

I tell my students to count loudly on the things they are supposed to play and whisper the counts of the things they don't play. This way, they are essentially playing the exercise with their voice. Also, on my more advanced students, I have them start counting what they see. For example, if they have to play something like 1_+a, 2_+a, I have them count it that way instead of counting all of 1e+a, 2e+a. They do need to have an 8th note pulse going through their head as well. Vocalizing what they play also transcribes well to playing drumset beats. I have them voice a lower pitch for bass drum and a higher one for snare. I think it works well for them in reverse, where they can hear a beat on the radio and figure out where everything is.

Mike
March 17th, 2005, 06:21 PM
Don Worth

Yeah, get the bored student looking at the pics on the wall, that drum set over there, or whatever. I like how they play the beat for 4 meas and then stop and look at you.........like......I PLAYED IT.......ask them "how long is a song, 4 meas or close to 4 minutes?......or the kid that I ask to play something off of a page we have already gone over say 3 months back........."you mean I am suppose to able to play that stuff now, I already learned that...... [img]mad.gif[/img] then if you learned it already..........play it . Or the bored look, I tell them that I have better things to do and Oprah is having a good show on today that I am missing..... [img]wink.gif[/img] They get the idea then.
March 17th, 2005, 06:33 PM
FlamTriplet

So what did you do this week? Nothing.

Great, so did you practice? No.

This was a four month scenario with one student.

The Mom talked to me and thought that she might have to drop the student(4th grader) At the lesson, I decided to drop her, didn't talk to the Mom. They missed the next week, so I thought it was a done deal. Then they come back all pissed. They bought a drumset and signed up for two months of lessons, but the student didn't bother to tell Mommy that I dumped her.

So we did lessons and the next to lessons were great she played some beats loud and clear. then the third week... Nothing, did you practice, No. ETC...

So now I just collect the money. I don't even bother teaching her anything. I make her sit in a chair while I practice.

Any student who repeatedly says they didn't practice, get to watch me practice for their lesson---and get paid for it. That's a good deal [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Don't get me wrong, but some kids are so lame it's not even funny. But that 1/2 or one kid each day that actually digs it, makes it all good.
March 17th, 2005, 07:00 PM
XNavyDrummer

True story.

A new student came to me from another teacher. She had been taking lessons for about a month. I asked her if she had her sticks with her. "No" was the reply "I don't own any sticks".

"hmmmm, So how have you been practicing over the last month?"

"Well I haven't."

"What did your previous drum teacher tell you about practicing"

"She didn't say to practice, just to THINK about drumming."

I said that my lessons involved playing and that she would need to practice.

She lasted two lessons.
March 17th, 2005, 07:15 PM
Lee Collins

Haha dazzler and flamtriplet, good stuff. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Flam, getting paid to practise, lol. Nothing wrong with that. I do that too sometimes when a student doesn't turn up, even though I'm meant to go find and fetch them [img]wink.gif[/img]

Lol dazzler, I've also lost some students in the past for being too hard on them. Actually there's one student I have now( I've had him for ages) who's very thick skinned. I've gotten away with really bollocking him and he smiles it all off. Just as well [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Got another student who's dad would sit in and watch every lesson of his at the music school. He increased the 15 minutes to 30 mins. Now the student tells me he's stopping because they have no money. Yet the head of music told me he'd said it was because he was bored, that he was doing the same thing every week. I showed her the lesson record for every week, and it showed different exercises each week, a methodical continuation through a book. Yeah, I guess I could mix it up and do completely different things from week to week to keep it more interesting and I'll do that next week with this kid. But what fucks me off is that not only did I feel I was teaching 2 people for the price of 1( him and his dad) but his dad could have spoken to me at any time if his son wasn't happy. Considering he'd increased the lesson to 30 mins indicates to me he was happy with the lessons. Well, it could be the money, or boredom, or who knows what.
March 17th, 2005, 07:19 PM
Lee Collins

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy Vermiglio:
"She didn't say to practice, just to THINK about drumming."

[img]eek.gif[/img]
March 17th, 2005, 08:59 PM
mwm

Quote:

"She didn't say to practice, just to THINK about drumming."

I saw that movie/play -- The Music Man!!
March 17th, 2005, 09:04 PM
FuseU1

[ March 17, 2005 05:10 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]
March 17th, 2005, 09:06 PM
FuseU1

Quote:

Originally posted by MRhet:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />"She didn't say to practice, just to THINK about drumming."

I saw that movie/play -- The Music Man!!<hr /></blockquote>Isn't this basically what most of the eMpTyV crowd thinks/does? [img]wink.gif[/img]

She prob said/did that because of those other reasons ["teaching" horror stories] you guys just listed... [img]tongue.gif[/img]
March 18th, 2005, 04:21 AM
Lee Collins

Regarding counting aloud, another reason a lot of students don't like doing it is because they feel embarassed. Some are just too shy to vocalise for some reason.

Another thing. It REALLY annoys me when I'm trying to talk and the student fidgets, yawns, looks around the room, or just keeps tapping away on the drums. I do ask them not to play when I'm explaining something and I also ask them not to look around the room and to concentrate on what I'm saying. You guys get that too? Also, many will play an exercise once, stop and look at me. So I ask them to keep playing it and they'll play it once or twice more then stop again. I mean seriously, it never crosses their mind that these things need to be played several times before moving on. I think music teachers earn their money because we need the patience of a saint and then some.
March 18th, 2005, 04:58 AM
Dazzler

You make me laugh Rudy, I've had all the same problems as you! I say in every lesson that "these rhythms I'm giving you aren't exercises that I tick off once you can play them, they are rhythms that you'll hear every day on the radio and HAVE to be mastered by any good drummer". I then say "don't just play it for a few bars, tell me that you've done it and stop, play it for 5 minutes without the music and without stopping, as you would if it were accompanying a pop song"

I also get my students to vocalise each rhythm before they play it, so:

"bum, ba bum bum, ba" etc.

I also make them tell me what beats of the bar the snare and BD is so I'm sure they know. I was teaching today and all the points you've raised came up. Regarding when it is time to move on... one girl has had a basic pop/rock rhythm for 5 weeks so I said to to her "tell me, you've had this for 5 weeks now and you still can't play it. I'd like YOU to tell ME, if you were in my shoes, do you think this is acceptable? What time scale would you give a student to get just ONE BAR of rhythm down?" She looked sheepish and said "probably a week". "Exactly, I said!". So I'm not being an arse-hole by wanting her to be able to play it so we can both move on. I even told her that I was bored. I think it's fair enough.

All my best students vocalise the snare and DB without being embarrased, count aloud, play along to music in time and think about the sound they are producing. This too is vital. I hate it when students hack away at the hi hat like they're chopping wood, I get them to think about the position of their body in relation to the druums and make sure they know that this affects the sound of what they are playing. "We sound like we look" after all.

As I said in my last post, I have really changed my approach this term and don't get wound up as I did before: students definitely sense it when I'm getting tense and aggitated by them, so now I try to see good in what they're doing and praise them. As I said, it's a business as well and I don't want to lose students (I have in the past) due to me being impatient and crabby with them.

I could go on as I've just taught for 7 hours, but I think I'll leave it there!
March 18th, 2005, 04:55 PM
FlamTriplet

I had an asian student who wasn't good with english. I asked her if she had a drumset. She said yes, but she never brought sticks with her. [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] So a couple of months go by, and I ask her why she couldn't get buzz rolls together. She said she didn't have a drumset. [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] Then she said she didn't have a practice pad. [img]eek.gif[/img] Then she said she didn't have sticks, she used pencils on her desk. [img]graemlins/cry_smile.gif[/img]

[ March 18, 2005 12:55 AM: Message edited by: FlamTriplet ]

[ March 18, 2005 12:57 AM: Message edited by: FlamTriplet ]