US and UK Jazz drumming

...another thread here got me thinking about the difference in Jazz drumming over here in the UK and over in the US
(I live in the UK)

I have found a lot of US drummers much more open to fusion and fusion drummers playing straight jazz.
Over here I think there is a bit of snobbery about this. Jazz is seen as an interllectual pursuit which should be played on a tiny ancient drum kits.
(a couple of my friends study jazz at the local college where there jazz lecturers have told them that...
'fusion is just repeated riffs'
and
'I don't think there should be any emotion when you play jazz')

A lot of drummers here come from the Roy Haynes/Bill Stewart school (whom I both love btw) where as the Elvin/Tony approach doesn't seem so common.

I shall try and give you an example.

Years ago I tried out for a local jazz group. Now I'm a full on Tony/Elvin/Billy C styled player (obviously not as good!!!)
In the end they picked another drummer. They felt I could play better but they just wanted someone who 'keeps the beat so we can concentrate on nailing the changes'

This is obviously no indication of anything but I wondered if anyone had any other similar experiences.

I think that "snobbery" exists everywhere generally. It's interesting that you say drummers in the US are more open minded but then go on to comment about a situation where it was other instrumentalists who were being close minded. (as opposed to an anectdote about English drummers being close-minded)

Generally speaking, I find drummers who love the instrument as a whole to be extremely open minded the world over. (basing this on people I've run into on this site for example) When I say open minded, I mean they can appreciate and enjoy a vast number of types of drummers.

From a genre perspective, most of them are pretty closed off. Jazz Vs. Rock, Rock Vs. Jazz. etc. (them=musicians who are devoted to that style alone)

To your point, I wouldn't classify Elvin as fusion as much as "unique" regarding his style. (I know you weren't saying he's fusion either) Tony is an appropriate example I think and Tony took and continues to take plenty of flack for leaving Miles and branching out. Miles took a lot of heat in a very similar way so I wouldn't say that musicians in the US are more open minded and we're probably far less exposed to other cultures and ethnic music in general than musicians in Europe or South America.

Basically, the Jazz police are everywhere and the organization's headquarters is in the US.
[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Well said Derek,

I also think that whichever style of jazz drumming suits your taste, go for it ! I have seen some of the new generation drummers perform, such as Billy Kilson and Antonio Sanchez. Take only these two for an example and you will feel the influences from the past mixed with the new stuff.

Some like fusion, others are purists and tend to say very often: It's not like the good old days ! That's fine for certain musicians. But, luckily there is a more open-minded kind of jazz buff - the one who will listen with big ears and accept that jazz styles are different and you just have to choose whatever you like .

In Europe, in the last 30 years, many mainstream jazz musicians from the USA are living there and their 50s & 60s style of jazz is alive and well. North American musicians experiment more with the Latin bag and use rock and pop in their playing.

Germany is the country that exploits the new Electronic and more alternative styles of jazz.

Bottom line, is it's all good. I tend to say: to hell with the
critics ! Whatever sounds good and feels good, just do it !

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Bottom line, is it's all good. I tend to say: to hell with the
critics ! Whatever sounds good and feels good, just do it

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm with you, groove [AWA DDF].

Another bottom line: HelLO, this is the "new millenium." I have little time for snobby "genre authorities" [I'm obviously not talking about the great teachers/educators/clinicians who do great work exposing & instructing the youth & masses to the artforms]. [Analogy:] This is 2005... I akin those stylistic-nazi types to the people who wouldn't buy a new phone when the push-button design 1st came out. Or those who refuse to buy a CD player because they don't want to cut loose of their old vinyl record player or cassette tape player. Or who refuse to get a computer or cellphone. [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img] [however, I'm also not speaking of those who perhaps can't afford it right now]. Or who refuse to get into digital software AOT the analog way, altho which may still have it's applications, i suppose.

It's irrefutable, AWA unstoppable. Mixing of influences, barrier-crossing & genre-blending has been & will continue to meld & happen. "Fuse," if you will. [Hence the name ;c) Why not accept the fact? Might as well embrace it, & enjoy it for what it is...the natural AWA exciting evolution [to me, anyway] of the world's MUSIC, & not be akin to that stuffy, stodgy old codger that sits there & mutters "Da** kids!" all the time. Smacks of insecurity & jealousy even, perhaps[?]

Passe, old hat, irritating, quite lame, & quite frankly [for the PC crowd], "politically incorrect"...NTM...

"BORRRRring..."

But that doesn't necessarily mean casting the "roots" to the curb either - it also means understanding where each artform/style that one endeavors to undertake originates, & the "workings" of it, & perhaps not just simply where it "is now." To understand the roots will help one master the present AW. I'm still working on it ["work in progress"}. But then everyone is on their own timeframe relating to this concept...

I would care to wager that virtually ALL the great players who are [& that we speak of here] are benefactors of this mindset, even when they are stylistic masters of one or perhaps more genres...

Take a look at Rickman, for another brief example. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

That's also why I don't get the Virg-bashing. Man, the cat is CUTTING EDGE. RAZOR SHARP. So he's not the next swinging, boppin' whiz kid...SO WHAT. Ther are a hundred other great jazz-swingers here on the planet for that [thank God]. He IS WHAT HE IS. It's da** exciting, to say the least! I try to take what good qualities I can from these [all] types & apply it to my learning & understanding.

I say, get into as many styles as you can handle & have the "TIME" for! Although, if I'm honest about it, I consider myself primarily a jazz-rock-fusion-pop-funk-r&b-motown "gringo" [couldn't be helped - it went with the birth-territory!], I try to delve a little further into, say, latin/brazilian/afro-cuban, which I love. Incredible rhythms. Maybe one day I'll venture further into the mid-eastern stuff...Hussein, Trilok & company knock me out - & they are blends of authentic "East" meets authentic "West!"

Dare to try it! OPEN up the mind! Take a break outside the box!
It will LIBERATE you, NOT stifle & choke you into a small cage...

Peace.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 19, 2005 04:52 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

Cheers guys...

I agree with you all.

I think I'm really talking about the change that happened in Jazz in the eighties with the emergence of Wynton Marsalis when Jazz a bit of an exhibition piece.

This I think is best illustrated by the Ken Burns documentary 'Jazz'

No Mclaughlin, No Keith Jarrett, No Weather Report, No Pat Metheny.
These guys have sold millions of records and yet they don't get included in a 12 hour documentary on Jazz?

And I think this has had an effect on drumming where there is now a definite idea of what a jazz drummer is, what kit they should play and what licks they should know.

This is why Virg (or Thomas Lang, Marco etc) won't be accepted by the Jazz community. Maybe things are the same over in the US: Here I find the Jazz scene really stagnant.
My band plays full on fusion, we can't gig in rock venues and jazz venues won't have us because to them we aren't play jazz.

If this is the case Jazz is dead. It's not possible to play music the way it was played 40 years ago, if you try I think it becomes an exhibition piece.

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Intellectual sophistication is all well and good...But intellect without conviction doesn?t reach folks. And if you don?t communicate, you may as well stay home.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I might add honesty [I know you said or implied that anyway] & a dash of humility to go along with it. ;c)

Well said, Andy.
I hear what youre saying for sure. That's happening over here AW. It's an unfortunate result of the self-division of folks into "camps" or classes." I think perhaps it helps people feel comf w themselves, or perhaps it's insecurities driven. I've even met folks who downright snub EVERYTHING if it is HC-jazz [or sometimes these days] latin. [But usually, they're NOT the latinos/as - it's the HC-JAZZERS who're into latin! But then, they're not purists annymore, right?! ;cp] It makes them feel superior, in some way, i think. I'm not speaking for everyone naturally, just those groups that i have indeed encountered in this way. This stuff went on in my HS, FCOL.

For ex: the "preppie/socialite/loafers/no socks/'if you're not wearing what we're wearing, you're a social clod & beneath me'" AWA "jock" crowd would snub their noses at the "freaks/stoners;" then there were the intellectuial nerds/dorks/geeks, blah blah blah & all this social class self-righteousness. Typical. Not nec right, but typical nonetheless. Cliched, even.

However, I DO understand that forms such as jazz often take a much longer time & higher level peaked to attain some mastery of, AOT say much pop or commrcl radio, even tho those forms also require discipline & consistency. This is often why the purists snub their noses on subsequent "fusional" forms. I understand this. But I think one has to move even beyond this line of thinking, as it's still a form of "staying locked within the Box."

Another reason may just simply be - some of the music just goes over a lot of folks' heads. Jazz purists bag on Holdsworth, which to me is complete & utter BS. AH has taken these elements & fused them into a unique & interminably lofty style. It may not be everyone's bag [indeed, it's not!], but to dismiss it altogether is another agregious malpheasance [sorry, only words i could think of ATM ;cp] Often it's the very purists who dismiss someone like AH, when in fact they are threatened by HIS effect of mastery within his own style in music, when they themselves live by this very same credo of expectancy within the jazz idiom! So then, it really is subliminal subconscious hypocrisy?... ;c)

Great post, Riddim. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Don't mean to begin yet another excessive Virg rump-kiss [as sometimes happens w other deserving players, such as Hass], but I might add: while I don't necessarily know if you were referring to my Virg comment by your implied referenced acrobatic/technical drumg, I will say that I do not believe Virg is not being honest w himself or to his craft simply because of his having extreme technical facility under his belt [not that you said it that way or were ref'g to him, nec]. We all know he can slam out your bsic 2 & 4 if called upon to do so [remember - he learned that back in his caveman days! ;c)], & he can groove, regardless of some folk's opins. Now, whether or not he can groove like Gadd, Marotta, Ersk, Abe Jr, or Keltner might be another discussion, but then I could throw a ton of players into that volley.

I thought your post was well thought & pretty-much basically On The Mark. Not that that means anything important, tho, because...I'm "just a drummer." ;c)

You know, 1 of those guys who "hang out w musicians"...

But, dagnabit, I happen to love jazz, latin, fusion, rock, funk, r&b/soul, classical, blues, bluegrass, folk, ethnic/world, AND pop!

And SO DO the greatest players alive...if it's good, it's good, to me anyway. Doesn't matter "what freaking style" it's in...

Besides, if it's rock AOT jazz, a drummer still has to do his job / what it is we do...lay down a phat groovy foudation, be musically accompaniment-minded, & maybe add some zest - garlic[olaiuta], if you will...no room for snobbery there.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2005 02:43 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

Great insight by all. Good topic too.

I'm a jazz snob of sorts I suppose. I know the type you're talking about Andy; the guy that got the gig instead of you. Conservative old school jazz guys that just play time and rarely show any kind of agression. The time usually feels good but after a few tunes it gets boring for me because they're not doing anything differently tune-to-tune. I see why they're great but I can't help but have an opion. My biggest pet-peev about those kind of guys is they usually don't spend any time on soloing so when it comes to trading it ends up being.....well, whatever it is.
The thing is in the end those guys are almost like jazz drum machines that serve a purpose for the bands they play in but leave no individual legacy behind, unless you're one of the GREATS where you're time is enough to get mass attention. Granted music is the priority but I have somethings I would like to say on the instrument and I like to say them when apropriate (or not, I don't mind saying).
It's probably better you didn't get the gig Andy because when you throw in an accent anywhere other than the and of four at the end of the form they would probably look at you funny.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2005 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Steve Holmes ]</font>

Fuse...
I think you've hit the nail on the head with Holdsworth.
Here is possibly one of THE contemporary jazz innovators who has been virtually ignored by mainstream jazz

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Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
Great insight by all. Good topic too.

1 - I'm a jazz snob of sorts I suppose. I know the type you're talking about...

2 - ...because when you throw in an accent anywhere other than the and of four at the end of the form they would probably look at you funny.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1 - judging from the insight of your post [AWA your playg], I wouldn't say you sound like a jazz snob at all... ;c)
[img]cool.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

2 - LOL ;cp

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Yeah, Andy...Where do you find his stuff at the local music outlet [IF you can find it]? Never under "jazz;" sometimes under "rock"..he's neither; yet both. And yet he "shows some definite 'skills'" at it, at that. ;c)

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2005 02:51 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

I feel compelled to address some of the issues raised in Andy?s original post. This is not an attack on Andy.

Re snobbery: I think there is a bit of snobbery, or some appreciation of the level of understanding and ability required playing this music, everywhere. Played well, this music requires a greater understanding than just the ability to play a groove. That works fine in cover bands or some pocket music. While the groove may be a part of this approach as well, it?s not always as overt as it might be elsewhere. Everyone has to keep the form in his or her heads at all times (which we should be doing in any idiom), or things fall apart, especially if everyone tries to go to Mars concurrently.

Having said that, looking down on something is not a good idea, IMHO. That?s narrow-minded. The better players I know appreciate each idiom for what it is. Better to appreciate something for what it is than put it down for what it isn?t. And just because one can demonstrate a high degree of skill at playing something complicated, this does not mean that they can play something simply and move people.

When you can do both, you have something.

Re kit size: The size of the kit is moot. These guys are hearing with their eyes, and ignoring history. Lots of older beboppers got into larger kits when Billy Cobham became famous. He was the first jazz based cat, after the 60s, who got into the larger kits popularized by folks like Hal Blaine and Ginger Baker, and made them an integral part of creative interactive music. While one can argue that having fewer sound sources compels one to get more out of less, I don?t know as it follows that Blakey, Elvin or others? playing deteriorated because they used bigger kits.

Re: ? Fusion is just repeated riffs'
That?s like saying jazz is rehashed blues. It shows a lack of awareness of the idiom.

Re lack of emotion when playing jazz:

No emotion when playing jazz? Good grief. Without it, what?s the point? That?s like making love without clothes on, wrapped in duct tape. Then it?s elevator music, polite, unobtrusive, endured, and hopefully forgotten. The whole point of any art form is communication of a vision. Craft is not art. It's just craft.

I think your friends miss the point. It doesn?t sound as if they are very familiar with the work of Art Blakey, Philly Joe, Roy Haynes, Tony Williams, Max Roach, Papa Jo, Jack DeJohnette, Tain, Ralph Peterson, Don Lamond, or Buddy Rich. Their work is characterized by a great deal of conviction and emotional intensity. Nor does this disparage the ECM approach. Subtlety does not require a lack of feeling.

Intellectual sophistication is all well and good. We all like to throw new ideas out there and see if they are picked up on, and if they work. But there is a major difference between look at how clever I am (I?m doing 64th note double with my feet! I?m playing 17 over 35! ), and this is what I honestly believe, based on what?s happening in the music now.
The music is intellectually challenging. But intellect without conviction doesn?t reach folks. And if you don?t communicate, you may as well stay home.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2005 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Riddim ]</font>

Steve, can you elaborate for us please, who are you referring to when you say old school jazz guys that just play time and rarely show any kind of agression" or "those type of guys"?

I'm interested to know what jazzers you think just play 'boring' time like a drum machine and 'don't spend any time soloing'.

'Subliminal jazz drumming ("you couldn't hear him, but you knew he was there....") just doesn't hold my interest.'

...ha ha brilliant, glad someones said it!

I was brought up by my Dad listening to Modern Jazz Quartet so Connie Kay was a big influence on me who I would say is the most subliminal jazz drummer of all time (and I still love him)

It just seems here in the UK if you to a jam session or watch that seems the only way to play.

a few years back I was chatting to the drummer with a major UK jazz artist.
I said I'd love to get more jazz gigs but I'm basically a Tony/Jack De J styled player.
He said 'Well there is your problem, drumming like that is a bit looked down upon here in the UK'

I once tried to get Simon Phillips some gigs with his acoustic band. The venues here had never heard of him, when I told them his CV I was told 'we don't book acts like that...'

I love jazz but I hate this attitude.

Great posts everyone. Most of the jazz guys that have my attention are those with great fusion chops and impeccable taste. Subliminal jazz drumming ("you couldn't hear him, but you knew he was there....") just doesn't hold my interest.

Now smooth "jazz" is another world...what's with all those drum machines?????

I've attende jazz fests; most notably [& for time, here], USA: Friehofer's Saratoga NY, AWA Clearwater Jazz Holiday, FL.

Both events were chock FULL of thousands who were there to see some of the popular, finest SA jazz/swing AWA fusion bands you'll ever hear.

Even the smooth jazz bands are well-rehearsed;c) & had their place - it helps these other bands expose the US to a meatier musical market...

Of the "smooth jazz" bands, Sanborn is one the greatest. Class A, top-o-the-line listenable pop-r&b-jazz, that stretches out a little live. Very cool [much cooler than the actual records, even].

So, I'm sorry if this is the att overseas. But, we of course have our problems related AW, aka the $ factor.

But according to those audiences, the ones who are off-base are the "in-the-box" marketers, because I saw thousands of gleeful jazz appreciatives at these fests...& they seemed to be just as, if not more, excited by the more involved bands as opposed to the "safer" ones.

I sometimes feel that some of these so-called tour marketers/arrangers & record peeps have their own tastes & thoughts of the dollar/market in mind when judging whether an act is "good" or "listenable by the masses" [or not]...this sometimes irks me to no end. But eh, whaddya gonna do...

It's a darn good thing there are some "enlightened" ones out there doing it... [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 21, 2005 06:24 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

Dear Andy Edwards (Steve and all HOD),
Hi, I'm contacting you from Munich, Germany.

Since you spoke about Jam-Sessions here is a video of my playing at the jam-session of the local Jazz Club, "Unterfahrt", from LAST WEEK.


http://site238.webhost4life.com/alexsanguine/Jam2.wmv


There is a ton of GREAT jazz drummers everywhere I go (small town, big town, you name it), and, to me, they all play VERY different....

I saw your video playing "Elegant People" from W. Report and thought it was excellent (please congratulate the bass player and keyboardist on my behalf too).

Every musician has it's owns opinion about music. You play good, man, and just have to find the people in the style that would like to play with you, which I believe will be no problem.

We can't be liked by everybody, what can we do?

Analyzing cold blooded the situation, and seeing if we can learn something from it is the only alternative to me. Sometimes there is (something to learn) sometimes not. I'm aware that you know all this.


Best regards,
Alex Sanguinetti

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 21, 2005 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Alex Sanguinetti ]</font>

Thanks Alex for the nice comments.

A lot of this stuff happened a long time ago, and I did just that and went off and did my own thing and have been relatively succesful.

But I don't really get to play jazz anymore (except with my own band) which is strange as it is my first love.

I feel this is because I don't play waht most jazz world's idea of jazz is. This because I think in the 80's jazz became a thing which should be studied as opposed to a living art form. In other words it died, (Like the blues did in the 60's)
If anybody tries to do anything new jazz it gets called 'not jazz, something else'

In drumming this is seen in the 'a good jazz drummer should be able to...' approach

Who is re writing the book now like Tony and Elvin did in the 60's?