Altec Novice

Hello

First post. Based in London, UK. Am looking to buy vintage Altec or JBL to go with my 300B amp. The only Altec model I know a little about is the Valencia, which is about the right size for my living space. Is this a good model to go for and is it available from anywhere. I am not too worried about shipping from the States, if need be.

Also, I heard that the 604 driver was excellent. Are there any attainable Altec models that utilise this driver?

As you can see, am a complete Altec novice!

Thanks.

I meant 4312's

Ebay, and be carefull. Ask questions of the seller.
And do yourself a favor and don't buy JBL. Altec is superior whan it comes to the home environment and low power tube amps.
Ron

Don't know of where you will find Altec stuff in the UK but welcome to the board Eric. I'm from one of the colonies: Canada. Here it's easy to find stuff. Hopefully someone from your side of the pond will respond.

Long live Altec.

Cal

Hello Cal

There are dealers in the UK who sell vintage gear including Altecs. But I'm also interested in what might be available across the pond. The favourable exchange rate should make up for the high cost of shipping.

The only vintage speakers I've ever owned were a pair of JBL 4212's, which I bought back in 98 when they were BRIEFLY reissued in this country. Although they were a massive bargain at ?1000, I never really got to grips with their slightly boxy midrange, although bass quality (12" white aquaplas)was magic. Shame I never tried them with a good 300B amp rather than the big transistor one I was then using. It might have opened up the mid. Still, we all make mistakes. Selling them was my big one.

Looking now towards Altec or JBL again. Anything from low 90's db upwards.

I have both a pair of Model 19's and a pair of Urei 811A's (loaded with 604-8K's). Since soffit mounting isn't a good option for me I use a powered sub with the Urei's as per BobR's suggestion (Thanks again, BobR!). I would be hard pressed to choose between the two so I just settle for both. http://www.hostboard.com/forums/ I think a really interesting project would be a pair of Time Aligned(TM) Model 19's. http://www.hostboard.com/forums/

Eric:

If you didn't like the peaky midrange of your JBL 4312s, then do NOT consider a stock Altec 604 + crossover; the JBL 4310 (the precursor of the 4311/4312, which are voiced similarly) was _designed_ to mimic the midrange response of the Altec 604 (from Don McR's site):

JBL pro history - 1960's

I've mixed on JBL 4311s and can state that they do indeed sound like Altec 604s.

This frequency response curve (604E) from an Altec studio monitor catalogue exhibits the irregular midrange response and limited LF/HF bandwidth:

Altec 1971 monitors catalogue (page 2) featuring 604E response curve

If you must have Altec Duplexes, the first- and second-series UREI Time-Aligned control room monitors utilising the Altec 604-8G and 604-8K respectively offered flat frequency response, and appreciably extended the HF as well. Extended LF response was traded off for better damping as this range was intended for soffit-mounting (though using an external sub suffices for free-standing use).

Perhaps the Altec Model 19 would be a more optimum Altec choice as it offers flat response with extended HF as well -- it offers a much more highly refined crossover over earlier Altec systems. It is also highly efficient.

In spite of the high sensitivity, you may want to have a closer look at your power requirements, even if you intend to listen at low sound pressure levels. Consider that modern 24-bit recording now handily covers the range from an extremely low noise floor to the threshold of pain, capturing +28 dB peak-to-average is attainable (compared to the limited signal-to-noise of analogue recording).

That's a nearly three magnitudes-of-order (1000x) difference in electrical power between average and peak levels.

Certainly the logic of low-power SET amps deserves greater scrutiny - despite high-sensitivity loudspeakers - with modern digital media.

BobR

Hello

Hope everyone's enjoying their Easter break. Here in London, we've had 4 days off. Been a great opportunity to REALLY relax for a change.

Ron, thanks for your advice about ebay. Actually, if I do ever buy speakers from abroad I'd prefer to do it by direct contact and not via ebay. Also, sorry to mention JBL on this forum. I just thought my experience of them might prove helpful to anyone who might recommend an appropriate Altec model for me.

Bob, thank you so so much for the info. The page on JBLs onslaught into the professional market is fascinating. So, the LE5 driver had a midrange output to match the 604's peaked response. NOW I know!!

Well, having found the LE5 mid a little too coloured for my tastes (a degree of nasality especially noticeable on horned instruments), perhaps it would be best to stay clear of the 604 if it has a similar response. Having said that, if I HAD tried the 4312's with a 300B amp, perhaps I would have perceived less of that colouration subjectively. Also, have heard that changing the stuffing material behind the mid driver might have changed the sound a bit, too.

Incidentally, on the JBL (Harman) Japan website you can see bang up to date versions of the 4312 with revised drivers, sometimes horn-loaded like the K2?s. For example, there's the 4318, which is still a 3-way in an identically-sized cabinet to the 4312. But the drivers are now mounted in vertically. The mid diver is described as a 105H. Perhaps it's less peaky than the old LE5? Shame these monitors are only available in Japan and not in Europe or the USA, IMO!!

Bob and Altec fan, the model 19 might be better for me, then? Do you have any more info on it? Is it easy to find the 19 for sale and are there vintage dealers in the states who could help?

Regarding power requirements. Have been advised to go for something like a parallel s/ended amp in the 18 watts region. I'm not looking to play loud. In fact, clarity and dynamic range at low to medium volume levels would be of more benefit, as would the ?immediacy? one associates with efficient speakers. Music I listen to is very varied but does include a lot of Jazz (e.g old BlueNote stuff) and Reggae. I already own a sub and super tweeter, by the way, if that helps.

....also what's your take on the Valencia? Is it a good altec? Thanks.

and have just noticed, there's loads of posts and info on the model 19 already

Just wondering--Why would someone in the home of classic Tannoy duplexes be looking elsewhere for speakers suitable to use with 300B amps?

David

Most Tannoy's aren't nearly as effcient as the average Altec. They tend to be around 94Db or so.

Good question. To be honest, I haven't really heard many old tannoys. The 'general' rule with Tannoys, as I understand it, is the older and bigger, the BETTER. I've heard very old and big tannoys and found that, while excellent and immediate, you can hear too much of the cabinet in the sound, especially when they are in smaller spaces.

I haven't got a problem with being 94db. Ok, 97 would be better but 94 should be fine with the amps I have in mind.

Altec models with true compression driver horns with big bass drivers, This is an attractive feature.

Do you have any recommendations on what Altec/s to look out for?

Eric, I sent you a PM on the Valencia's.

Hi Eric,

I agree with what Bob said, regarding the 604's frequency response, yet I'm sure that it only holds true for the pre-Mantaray types of the 604. The later models 604-8H and 604-8K sported a constant directivity horn, named "Mantaray" by the Altec marketing folks. The stock crossover is equipped with an MF eq circuitry which seems to be mandatory for CD horns. I still believe the 604 is better suitable for home application due to its point-source character. I haven't heard M19s in my home environment but a friend has A7s in room that is as big as mine. I think it's overkill and the MF/HF sources just don't blend over that short distance.
By the way, I also followed Bob's advice, ditched my idea of building a passive time aligned x-over for my 604s and went active.
A Rane AC22 x-over, a cheapy Behringer parametric eq, solid state for the bass, tubes for the HF.
Took me a while to get the frequency response right but it sure was worth the effort.So...thanks Bob :-)
Don Patten once said "Time alignment is like freeing the music from the mud."
He's right and I think the active setup makes for some addidional "demudding".
The next thing I might try is the design of an FIR x-over based on an Analog Devices Sharc evaluation board. Any of you guys ever tried that?

Manfred

Hi Eric:

JBL's history is interesting but if you dig a bit deeper on Don McR's site, Altec's post-1960s history is terribly disheartening.

The combination of LTV's straddling Altec with staggering debt and - according to a few who worked at 1515 Manchester - managerial arrogance ("We're the best; we don't have to improve") that severely limited research and development, it's absolutely no surprise that JBL very quickly assumed the leadership position in professional audio.

Many of the talented ex-Anaheim Altec folk eventually moved on to either working or consulting for JBL, Cetec-Gauss, Electro-Voice so in a sense, the spirit of Altec lives on. The names Henricksen, Ureda, the Davis' immediately come to mind.

"Having said that, if I HAD tried the 4312's with a 300B amp..."

So far as using your 4312s (or any other loudspeaker) with different amplifiers, provided you're running within the amplifiers' linear range and that the amps can handle the load reactances presented, you will _not_ hear any difference between amplifiers. If you do, then there is a problem with one of the amplifiers.

"Also, have heard that changing the stuffing material behind the mid driver might have changed the sound a bit, too."

The JBL 4312s are quite nice as is -- I'd leave them alone.

"Incidentally, on the JBL (Harman) Japan website you can see bang up to date versions of the 4312 with revised drivers, sometimes horn-loaded like the K2?s."

I truly believe that's to pander to the Asian market which has really subscribed to the `vintage is better' rubbish. IMHO, I believe that Harman Japan simply cobbles together systems incorporating some sort of horn/compression driver HF section or even just a `vintage' model number as bait, and the Asian consumers bite.

I doubt these systems have the same developmental budget/schedule as the normal JBL systems.

"Bob and Altec fan, the model 19 might be better for me, then? Do you have any more info on it?"

Altec Model 19 brochure

Altec home 1978 catalogue

"Regarding power requirements. Have been advised to go for something like a parallel s/ended amp in the 18 watts region. I'm not looking to play loud. In fact, clarity and dynamic range at low to medium volume levels would be of more benefit, as would the ?immediacy? one associates with efficient speakers."

The attribute of `immediacy' is simply having enough dynamic headroom to track the dynamics of the source material.

Perhaps twenty years ago, high-efficiency loudspeakers had the monopoly on this attribute; however, many low- to mid-efficiency loudspeakers now possess `immediacy'. All you need is enough electrical power and loudspeakers that have low power compression (loss of SPL from increasing voice coil resistance, due to heat).

Now amplifier power is relatively inexpensive and modern drivers have much better thermal management.

This is why - knowing the logarithmic relationship of electrical input power to acoustic sound pressure level and the fact that 24-bit digital audio will soon be commonplace - the logic of small SET amplifiers utterly escapes me :-/

My personal recommendation: a large, convection-cooled amplifier. A second-hand Crown (Amcron) DC-300 at 155 watts/ch. would be an excellent choice for a pair of Model 19s. Or a large Bryston, Krell or Hafler if you desire more exotic kit.

BobR

BobR,

I don't understand why you have to try and convince Eric that his 300B SE amps are no good. What's the point?
He likes them, isn't that good enough?

Ron

Hi Manfred,

The later 604s did incorporate heavy HF equalisation in the crossover network to flatten the axial response of the even-power-response Mantaray horns. The additional HF energy output of the Tangerine phasing plug cannot be overlooked as well.

Suppose then, the Model 18 (604-8H / 604-8K based) would also be a contender for Eric as well http://www.hostboard.com/forums/

Altec Model 18 brochure

In any event, the latest Altecs (Models 18 / 19) did incorporate much improved crossover networks than the earlier systems.

"The next thing I might try is the design of an FIR x-over based on an Analog Devices Sharc evaluation board. Any of you guys ever tried that?"

Nope, haven't tried it though may investigate doing so when time permits.

I'd previously been toying with BruteFIR (previously nwiir) under Linux (using a 24/192kHz RME HDSP9632 as I/O) but ran out of CPU in realtime very quickly...

Embedded is definitely the way to go.

BobR

Bob, Ron and Manfred

Apologies. I wasn't very clear in my first post. I do not actually OWN a 300B amp yet. Rather, I am about (over the next few weeks) to audition a few, through shop and home demo, and will then decide to buy or not. There are other valve (tube!) possibilities, of course, such as KT88 and EL84.

I currently own a Bryston 4BSST 300-watt amp. The first step, though, is to upgrade my speakers and, luckily, there are a few dealers who stock vintage Altec here in England. Once done, I will then be able to directly compare tube amps to my Bryston in relation to the speakers chosen. I'll let my ears do the deciding on that one and will be happy to post the results. It's going to be an interesting summer!!

Bob, regarding experimenting with the stuffing behind the mid-driver: A JBL engineer, who claimed he was involved in the original design of the 4310/11/12, told me about the stuffing via email. It was his idea and one that I never tried before selling those 4312?s. This engineer also suggested using those speakers with tubes instead of solid state, which I also did not do. I suppose you could say I didn?t really listen to him!

Thanks for all the info. Will need to read over it for a couple of days. There?s a lot to take in and digest: - 604-8H / 604-8K drivers, latter day crossovers etc, etc. And must actually go and LISTEN to some Altecs ASAP.

I'm sorry I have to disagree with Rob on the 300b amp. Something has to be said for a SET type amp that. I'm NOT an electrical engineer, so I can't tell you what is going on here.

There is somehing that is more musical, more mellow...I don't know....Maybe it's the type of music I play....I don't know...but there is SOMETHING there.

I was convinced that the High-end Mac Integrated Amp (MA6100) that I owned was better then any 20+ year old amp by Marantz. I was blown away at the sound difference between the two amps. We then brought in another amp (Crown DC 300A) and the 20+ yo Marantz still was easily the winner. However hooking up the Marantz to a nice pair of Boston Acoustics did not offer the same results. The Mac ma6100 seemed to work the best with the Boston Accoustics (although the Crown was pretty close).

I was really blown away with the Marantz amps, but at the time I couldn't afford a refurbished pair of 300b's or any of the New Set amps out there by companies like Carey.

Has anyone had any experience of the very old Marantz model 1,2,3,4 and 5 monoblock power amps? They are meant to be quite nifty (that's UK English for 'good')

Also Western Electric stuff!!


http://www.hostboard.com/forums/

MikeInNH:

Quote:

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There is somehing that is more musical, more mellow...I don't know....Maybe it's the type of music I play....I don't know...but there is SOMETHING there.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It may very well be distortion (harmonics in addition to the fundamental) on musical transients from the SET amp when it demands more energy that its output devices cannot produce that you may be hearing.

Yes, even with vinyl LPs, transients may easily reach +20 dB peak-to-average, particularly on classical and acoustic jazz, especially on percussion and piano.

+20 dB is two orders-of-magnitude (100x) higher power than average; even +16 dB is 40x.

Here's a very non-technical explanation of dynamic headroom, and why - provided you have a low noise floor amplifier - you can never have enough power:

Soft to Loud: The Nature of Power and Dynamic Headroom

A small excerpt:

"Moreover, what many of us don't realize until we hear it, is that clean undistorted loud sound often does not sound that "loud." The key here is that in most of our home listening, there are small amounts of distortion caused by a lack of dynamic headroom. It's the distortion that makes it sound "loud" in a domestic setting."

SET (and tube amplifiers in general) have different harmonic content than solid-state amplifiers when overdriven, but it's still non-linearity and addition of harmonics to the original signal nonetheless.

Fine for a musical instrument amplifier; however, that's hardly what anyone would consider `high-fidelity', which I would assume means `faithfulness to the original input signal' to most.

Eric23:

Quote:

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I currently own a Bryston 4BSST 300-watt amp.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Incredible amplifier: apart from its high quality build, WIDE power bandwidth, generous power supply, etc., its key feature that renders it as exceptional is its very low noise floor (under -110 dB noise below full power, 20 hz - 20 kHz). I'm not so certain I understand your desire to replace it.

Its output topology renders it relatively immune to highly reactive loads as well - Brystons are well known for their ability to drive nearly any loudspeaker system.

You often see Bryston 4Bs in mastering control rooms. Note that you'll NEVER see an SET amp in that type of professional critical listening setting, even with high-efficiency monitors.

The lack of dynamic headroom and attendent potential for harmonic distortion at average listening levels are faults, not virtues.

BobR

To all:

A clarification on my last post:

"The lack of dynamic headroom and attendent potential for harmonic distortion at average listening levels are faults, not virtues."

should read:

"The lack of dynamic headroom and attendent potential for harmonic distortion on transients at average listening levels are faults, not virtues."

Harmonic distortion on transients is the point I am attempting to address in this thread, but I believe that distinction is lost for many on this forum.

Needless to say, having ample, undistorted power is a primary, basic means of ensuring sufficient dynamic headroom. It is also a basic element of good sound practice and system engineering/design.

Eric23:

Speakerdave has Model 19 components requiring rebuilding in another post:

http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ult.../f/3729/t/1518

Constructing your own enclosures may be a nifty means of saving on shipping expense and using the windfall on having GPA rebuild the components to new spec.

BobR

Bob,Loudspeaker efficiency plays a huge role in all of this, corrct?
Normal listening levels with a 100dB/1W/1M speaker will only require average power levels of less than a watt. I have measured this.
While I agree that 8 watts isn't enough, especially if the bass becomes demanding, a 35watt tube amp will do just fine.
Also, transformer coupled tube amps do better job with transients, because if the driver stage has balls, the output stage can be driven into Class A2 which adds significantly to the dynamic headroom.
Also, it is more than possible to build SET amps with even 50 watts of power. You just don't get to use 300b's.
About 300B's....I love them. But I also feel that at least some of their sound is due to the fact that they tend to be microphonic. If you look at my avatar, it's a PP 300B amp that makes near 40wats at 1% THD Transformer coupled BTW. The tubes are so michrophonic, you can almost yell at them and hear it in the speakers. Folks with low efficiency speakers never hear this.
Ron

I mostly drive my Model 19 with a pair of Radio
Craftsmen C500`s from 1952. They are the old Williamson type amps, PP, 10 Watts from a pair
of KT66`s in triode mode. Boy, they can play real
loud, and audible distortion is not an issue either.I never have the feeling of lacking power
even with modern formats like SACD or DVD-Audio.
Regards, Martin