http://www.drumhard.com/videos/micke...pasic_2003.wmv
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Good find, thanks for posting!
That was one of the most amazing things I have ever seen someone (a kid!) do with sticks.
It gets SICK at 1:30 and 2:40 and his speed acuracy and control is probably as good as it gets... kinda makes you wonder what he can do behind the kit.
Any more info on him?
The First palce tenor solo is something to be seen as well
Rudy has definitely got a thing for the hands lately. Good for you man! I am sure that's a whole world of new stuff to explore.
That video was great. I must admit, his buzz roll and flams are really nice. Nothing to complain there. Really solid performance.
I saw that a while back but it was good to see it again. There are some other killer players on that site too. That guy know more tricks than a Times Square hooker.
Brad
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ha!Quote:
Originally posted by Vdrummer:
I saw that a while back but it was good to see it again. There are some other killer players on that site too. That guy know more tricks than a Times Square hooker.
Brad
I didn't see any hookers in times square. Er... not that I was looking or anything, but you'd think that they would be easy to spot!
Yeah sick stick tricks... looks like fun!
What I Think is pretty interesting, is that these hands are pretty common in the drum and bugle corps world, for those of you that dont know much about the activity it would be something worth checking out. I will be on tour with the Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps this summer for my final summer tour. You can only do this until you are 21 hence the young guy in the video. If you go to DCI.org you can find a schedule if you would to check out a show this summer and see some RIDICULOUS rudimental drumming. And if you happen to go to a show that The Cavaliers are at, be sure to say hi.
Yeah, it is the norm from what i know... however, it is damn impressive none-the-less. It is kinda funny to think how UNDER-developed big name drummers hands are compared to these guys. I mean, you can't focus on everything so these guys (DCI solo snare guys) probably ain't crazy on the set either. It is just funny to think how a 17 year old drummer could have hands that give someone like Virgil a run for their money. However, given the total package, i'd take Virgil anyday [img]wink.gif[/img]
Some of ya'll need to at least check out www.drumhard.com rather then just taking the direct link to download. I hate it when people do that and seems like a waste of bandwidth.
Well anyways....
If you thought he was good back then you need to see Mickey's new PASIC video. I have it and the tenor winner..Mike Hodges on my site now. I have all of the new snare stuff but no bandwidth to house it. The one stick thing Mickey does still confuses me..!!!!
Link
Check out the UNT (University of Texas) clip you you want to see one of the best drumlines ever!! I've never seen a DCI line at the level UNT is at. A few in that line...Jeff Queen...Bill Bachman...
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 23, 2005 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Kurt R ]</font>
But in one way I see it as a bit of a cabaret act. And let's face it, weckl does blinding single stroke wrist rolls and finger rolls AND commands the kit, so I wouldn't say he was underdeveloped. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
A top DCI or Pipe Band drummer's hands are developed far beyond what Dave or Virgil can do, and are likely to ever be able to do. It's a different idiom with far greater demands that those required of a kit drummer's hands. Obviously, Dave and Virgil kill on a kit.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep [img]wink.gif[/img]Quote:
A top DCI or Pipe Band drummer's hands are developed far beyond what Dave or Virgil can do, and are likely to ever be able to do.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In a sense yes but I'm not really sure. The age out for DCI is 21 so every person in DCI is 21 or under. Now that dosen't give much time to develope the hands. What.. maybe 10 or less? That seems like alot but how long has Virgil or Vinnie been playing? When you look at most of the "Drum Corps" guys burn out at 21 or last to 25 or so in college then their career is pertty much over playing at that high level. It's just too demanding for most older then that.Quote:
Originally posted by Vdrummer:
A top DCI or Pipe Band drummer's hands are developed far beyond what Dave or Virgil can do, and are likely to ever be able to do.
However, even if Virgil or Dave have been playing 35+ years, they still have divided up that time between many different aspects of the set. These kids have spent 10 years on ONE part of the set. ONE. I mean, i personally, would go freakin' nuts and i want no part of that. Regardless, they have spent more time on just the snare drum than either of these guys... think about it. It is if you only were able to play on one position of the guitar... sure makes it alot easier to master that one little thing.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very true.Quote:
Originally posted by matricks:
However, even if Virgil or Dave have been playing 35+ years, they still have divided up that time between many different aspects of the set. These kids have spent 10 years on ONE part of the set. ONE. I mean, i personally, would go freakin' nuts and i want no part of that. Regardless, they have spent more time on just the snare drum than either of these guys... think about it. It is if you only were able to play on one position of the guitar... sure makes it alot easier to master that one little thing.
That's why I wonder how they are on a kit!
That one little thing? You crack me up! Have you heard Rick Beckham, Rob Carson, Ken Mazur, or a hundred other DCI guys? That one little thing requires you practice Virgil-esque hours, and routinely compete for position against equivalent or better players from all over the country. Most drum set players only know the guys at their school, who are sitting in their basement jamming along with Rush or Blink 182. They idolize their drumming heroes, and never realize they could equal them with good instruction, and diligent practice. The standards are way, way higher in drum corps than for "professional" drum set players.
Many guys don't burn out but go on to pursue music education and teach HS and College drum lines. Others go on to play professionally and teach privately. Others drum in DCA (adult corps) or switch to pipe band drumming. In Pipe Bands, many players start as adults though most of the best began as children. Jim Kilpatrick has won the solo drumming world championship over a dozen times and is one of the best drummers alive. PB drummers don't age out, so they can play as long as they can cut the music. Alex Duthart died in a NY parade wearing his drum. That's a drummer!
Brad
I know that many do go and end up teaching, playing for companies like disney, or even DCA. But you can't compare the physical test it takes to march DCI division 1. I know how DCA is and it is ALOT less stressful then top DCi stuff. Many do end up still being in drum corps when they get older but still... they won't be pushed near as far as they where when they where marching. Don't forget the physical demands you need to do those marching moves with 40 pounds on your back at 230bpm. These guys and gals run around the field (really..they run sometimes) and play some of the most insane technical rudiments and beats! The hands are just one of the things needed to be good.
Chek out bachman playing some drumset
http://www.billbachman.net/media.html
Rob Carson is sick [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]
Actually Virgil studied with Rob Carson.
That way he got the best possible hand training, and you can see quite the inspiration in some of Virgils lenghtier solos. Ofcourse it's not the complexity of this guy, or someone like Jeff Queen or Jim Kilpatrick (13 or 14 times world solo pipedrum champion)
This guys (Mickey) hands are fascinating! Mindboggling!
Awesome, thanks for the link!
I think that just surpassed Jojo's "Buddy Rich Push Pull" stick trick and Gordy Knutsen's "Open and Closed" technique as "Coolest Stick Control Video" on my harddrive! I can't imagine what a whole Corps of that guy would be like......
As for his abilities behind a kit, I would wait to actually SEE and HEAR him play with a band before I'd be that quick to judge his prowess, gentlemen......
Did the Drum Corps thing for years and beat Rob Carson in "74 at The Western States PAS COntest and now make a living playing drums. Not using the chops I learned it corps as much as hitting 2&4. Some people do still practice that stuff, but learn there is NO place in the world of music that you should use those chops if you want to keep a gig. Guys have seen me warm up at festivals and all.......you play corps didn;t you and then I walk of stage and they tell me.....man....you did not use any of that stuff I saw you practicing and figured you would be all over the place with chops like that,,,,,No,....you grooved hard man and never did use any of those cheesey-puff-doodles or whatever they call them now...... [img]wink.gif[/img]
One thing I always thought that was odd is that when you get into the best drum corps out their you still have to pay the $2,000 or so to be in it when you compare to drumset and all you do is make for your performences. Theirs no making money in being a member of a corps even though you some of the best hands out their.
I played in one of DCI's top lines and now play drum set professionally and in my experience the two poses more differences than similarities. The drum corps thing is a really great place to devlop hand technique but the approach developed in that envrionment is quite different than what is needed as a drum set player.
I guess I'm speaking more outside of technique and more about attitude and musical approach. The role of a rudimental snare drummer and the role of a drum set in each's musical context is really different. I feel those different contexts dictate how technique should be dealt with. It took me several years to let go of some of the drum corps to become a better drum set player.
Derek comes from a similar background; maybe he can "shed some light" on the subject as well.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 24, 2005 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Zak Morton ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True that Kurt. But the chance to travel all over the country and play, especially at that age, is really worth it. One of the best experiences in my life for sure.Quote:
Originally posted by Kurt R:
One thing I always thought that was odd is that when you get into the best drum corps out their you still have to pay the $2,000 or so to be in it when you compare to drumset and all you do is make for your performences. Theirs no making money in being a member of a corps even though you some of the best hands out their.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep [img]wink.gif[/img] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nah!Quote:
Originally posted by matricks:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> A top DCI or Pipe Band drummer's hands are developed far beyond what Dave or Virgil can do, and are likely to ever be able to do.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What the DCI guy does is great, but he doesn't have a quarter of the power someone like Dennis Chambers is generating behind a drumset. The DCI thing looks like slap and tap, but good drumming is more like boxing, and the DCI guys would have to work years in order to get that torso balance.Quote:
A top DCI or Pipe Band drummer's hands are developed far beyond what Dave or Virgil can do, and are likely to ever be able to do.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">... sorry, it's true. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]Quote:
Nah!
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 24, 2005 03:42 PM: Message edited by: matricks ]</font>
A DCI drummer has far more power than someone like Dennis in their hands. They can execute hundreds of complex patterns CLEANLY, and can play lightly or through the head (i.e. hard!). I don't understand your point about torso balance.
Jim Kilpatrick told me how Virgil picked his brain during clinic tours for Premier where they both performed. I really admire Virgil's pursuit of technical excellence.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, the force output of someone like Dennis or Vinnie behind a kit, at full volume, is in another league altogether.Quote:
A DCI drummer has far more power than someone like Dennis in their hands.
The snare drummer's chops are tailored for high pitched 'rata-tap-tap' sounds. That's not going to cut it on a full kit, where body balance is much more of an issue.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 24, 2005 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Avi_drums ]</font>
Well, that is because of the tuning and the purpose of a Corps Snare... of course a whole set is going to generate a wider variety of pitches, dynamics, and timbres so of course there is going to be the perception of more 'power' and a 'bigger' sound.
However, if you want to talk about power in terms of velocity, if you want to talk about control of the sticks... sorry bro, Dennis ain't got nothing on um... no contest.
It is a fact.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 24, 2005 06:21 PM: Message edited by: matricks ]</font>
As far as body balance goes, we are talking about DCI here... no one is talking about 'body balance'. That is like saying a Goalie in hockey has no skate speed... duh, he is a Goalie.
Dennis' hands will move a lot faster around a kit (with far greater force) using more muscle groups. Body balance is a bigger factor here. The DCI drummer may have a slight speed advantage over a small range of motion using fingers, but that doesn't automatically mean he has better hand control.
They are two different aspects of hand technique and it's stupid to generalize about which takes more control.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 24, 2005 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Avi_drums ]</font>
This is something I've often wondered about. Once in a while I hear about these "awesome" snare drummers in DCI. And they are awesome...on a snare drum, not a drumset. I've never seen a DCI snare drummer bust ass on drumset. Drumset and corps drumming are two different beasts.
I used to play in marching band in high school so I've had some experience on it, but it's totally different that playing on a kit. For one, on the kit, I'm not holding tree trunks for sticks and secondly, the heads on a kit aren't kevlar and aren't tuned nearly as high as a marching snare.
When I see awesome DCI guys executing these awesome chops on a snare drum, I can't help but wonder why they don't do it on the drumkit. Actually I have seen an awesome corps drummer on the kit, but he's an awesome player, but the solos are anything like a snare drum solo.
Buddy Rich, to me, sounds like a snare drummer-gone-kit player, which he was.
A snare drum solo (corps drumming) is different that a set solo. I'm not sure how to explain it exactly, but on a kit, the nature and context in which someone plays is centered around three main things:
1.Ostinato (usually a repeated phrase on hi-hat or cymbal)
2.Bass drum (usually tells everyone listening or playing along where the beat of the music is, or the emphasis of the phrase,beat,etc.)
3.snare drum (usually tells everyone listening or playing along where the back beat is and can be used to emphasize or embellish the beat or ostinato ..ie. ghost notes)
Now, a marching band snare drummer, in my opinion, is using a completely different concept when playing a solo or piece:
1. When playing a snare solo, the beat or emphasis seems 'implied' or is defined by the snare drum phrase, in a way. This is opposite of kit solos, where the beat can be implied by other means (bass drum, whatever).
2. solo phrasing in corp drumming seems to be shorter to me, I'm probably wrong, but I never played corps solos,had no interest in them and still don't.
3. Set based solos have the option to be more beat oriented, where snare only solos are sort of beat oriented but it's not as implied as on a kit.
I didnt' exlain the last three cuz i don't have a lot of experience in corps drumming, but essentially, kit drummers are an "army of voices" and a corps drummer is only a "platoon of voices".
I first was introduced to Virgil when I went through a drum corp phase. It was this article I found on the Net that made me do research on Virgil...
--------------------------------------------
"Drum set players are learning how to play rudimentally and use sticking coordinations to develop more interesting fills and rhythms. Their problem is the fact they have not yet learned to "think" rudimentally.
"Play this Ken... How the hell did you do that? I never showed you that before OR the bass drum coordination."
"Simple. It's a windmill - a paradiddle with the flam in the middle. You put your right hand on the cymbal and left on the snare remembering to move the left to the toms and backwards the flam. Just think through it. The bass drum part is on the lead side flam. Simple."
A graduate of the Rochester Crusaders is Steve Gadd, a famous set player and studio drummer. "I was into playing with drum corps, fine rudimental
musicians with fantastic technique." (SG)
Billy Cobham was in St. Catharines in 1961, 1962, and also with the Sunrisers (Senior) from 1963 to 1966. As good as Cobham is a drummer, he had to earn his spot into an already filled line. He therefore set out to do this by marching in the color guard. When a spot opened in the drum. All power comes from the "inside", close to the body
section, he played tenor drum. Then, a season after that, he moved into the snare segment. Now that's what I call earning a spot in the line!" (WM)
"Mr. Cobham, what do you think of rudiments?" (JE)
"I dig you corps guys." He took a swig of his favorite - milk and cookies - then tried to execute some flam drags for us. He popped a few but then tried flam ratamacues. (This author)
"Mr. Coulatta, Why do you play traditional style?"
"Well, I... um... um... ya know it's... because well, that I have the hi-hat on the left side. But rudiments are important." (He didn't know.)
(VC)
"There is a drum set player by the name of Virgil Donati that "trains" just like we do. He is fast and executes with endurance. Many of his peers are afraid of him
-------------------------------------------------
Evidently, getting the respect of the hard core drum corp guys ain't easy.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually having better hand control MEANS having better hand control. So Dennis can rip around the drums... so he has arm control. However, as far as hand control, he ain't got what they got. Sorry again.Quote:
Dennis' hands will move a lot faster around a kit (with far greater force) using more muscle groups. Body balance is a bigger factor here. The DCI drummer may have a slight speed advantage over a small range of motion using fingers, but that doesn't automatically mean he has better hand control.
They are two different aspects of hand technique and it's stupid to generalize about which takes more control.
And what is this 'far greater force'... what force are you referring to, the Jedi one? If not, and you are talking velocity, Corps drummers are still superior. Physics don't lie.
As far as talking hand control, here: Take Dennis and take Jim Kilpatrick. If you wanna talk about hands (not arms and all that) have them sit at a snare drum and play. Have them both sit at Dennis' snare and play, then have them sit at a Corps drum and play. I think the hand control will be evident in both cases. THAT is hand control. When you are talking about moving around a set, that is hand control applied to the set using arms and rotation... nothing changes as far as hands go. A miraculous metamorphosis doesn't occur when you hit a tom and all of a sudden your hands use a completely different technique... it isn't magic, it's physics. These guys can physically control the rebound and movement of a stick better, when you are talking about hands, which we are. Just because you brought up Dennis and people started trying to shoot you down because when it comes to this topic, it is true Dennis can't hang in the arena we are talking about... just cause people are saying he can't, doesn't mean now we have to include a whole set here... we aren't talking about the overall drum set, we are talking about hands on a frickin' snare drum.
the GREG JACKSON video from drumhard.com is a MUST SEE!
The guy has power and style... dumping a glass of water on the drum and playing it was brilliantly crazy and exciting to watch!
...and lookout for the "stick on the shoulder" trick, that was clever.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The hands do not work in isolation, whether you are throwing a punch, or swinging a drumstick. Doesn't happen. So right there, you're building your case on a poor foundation.Quote:
Actually having better hand control MEANS having better hand control.
Some of the top set players I've seen have better hand/arm/shoulder coordination and thus, have more of the stroke I prefer to see and hear.
Many DCI guys tend to sound bad playing on drumsets...if their 'hand technique' was 'just plain better' I'd expect this not to be the case.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 24, 2005 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Avi_drums ]</font>
All the guys in high school drum corp would BASH the set players as being technically na?ve and the set players would BASH the corp guys as not being able to play band music. It was the RAGE in HS.
It was also true, the set players couldn?t hold a candle to the hand technique of the corp guys and the corp guys couldn?t play a simple groove?for one, they had NO foot technique and didn?t know what to do with their hands (hats and snare) much less the BD. When they tried to play drumset, they would place a large floor tom next to the snare tuned to a BD and play the entire kit with hands. One guy played a talent show with no BD pedal behind the kit! In fact, it was the talent shows that caused the greatest frustration to corp players. They could not understand for the life of them why everyone went crazy over these guys playing such simple beats. They didn?t understand the power of music and playing a song in a band, no matter how basic it was. The corp guys could not play music in a band behind a drum kit. They could not groove and play the kit. That simple! Why should they be able to? They only played a snare drum or roto toms for some. They did this very well. But when it came to playing a tune behind the kit, no go.
The guys who transitioned from corp to kit had to relearn and develop bass drum technique. They had to think entirely different. They had to learn to play without reading music. This was very humbling and many quit. After spending so much time (it was like being in the military for some) developing their craft, to start over was very humbling for many. They had all the hand technique and them some, but they did not have the musical sense to play the drum kit. It had to be developed. The guys who played both drum kit and were in corp were considered sell outs and ostracized by the true corp guys. It was really very high school and territorial. If you crossed the lines you were going to get it.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So having coordinated independence of 2 limbs is more demanding that having independence of 4 limbs? I agree that they are two different idioms but to say that a DCI drummers hands are far beyond what virg or Weckl can do; it's apples and oranges?. In what way exactly are a DCI drummers' hands more developed? I understand speed and rudiments are more involved in corps playing and that it's all about competition, but I think having the independence of all 4 limbs, like virg or weckl is far more developed than any DCI drummer could do or could ever do, so there! [img]tongue.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by Vdrummer:
A top DCI or Pipe Band drummer's hands are developed far beyond what Dave or Virgil can do, and are likely to ever be able to do. It's a different idiom with far greater demands that those required of a kit drummer's hands. Obviously, Dave and Virgil kill on a kit.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's my point! Playing a drum kit is a totally different animal. It's all stupid to debate as you get older and more away from high school really. Look at that Tomas Lang dvd...hes unreal and no DCI guy could even contemplate those patterns outside of the hand stuff. What dave or vinnie does...or any simple rock drummer is beyond the DCI guy because they DONT do that. What's the problem here? Corp guys have superior hand technique...is that a mystery? That's what they do. What makes a guy like vinne interesting to me is he throws a lot of technical stuff into pop groovves but they are musical. this is very risky to do, but his musical sense allows his to try these types of things. that musical sense is ewhat the DCI guys dont have because they dont play in bands with other musicians like bass players, guitarists or keyboard players...or singers for that matter.Quote:
I understand speed and rudiments are more involved in corps playing and that it's all about competition, but I think having the independence of all 4 limbs, like virg or weckl is far more developed than any DCI drummer could do or could ever do