Vinnie & Weckl settling down...

All of us, including Vinnie & Weckl, go through a 'technical' stage in our drumming in which we push ourselves on a technical level such as learning hand/foot combos or polyrhythms. During recent years, I've read interviews where Vinnie says he's since settled down on being so technical and goes for what grooves better. In addtion, Weckl has gone for more of a flowing approach in the last five years.

What makes us stop pushing ourselves technically? is there a point in which enough is enough and it's time to focus on being more groove oriented? At what point do you think Vinnie & Weckl decided that they wanted to change the way they played to a more natural or groove oriented way of playing?

i guess music tells you exactly what to do.
But sometimes you're just not listening because you're focusing on other things,like technique for example.
Jeff Porcaro was never into technique because he hadn't practise that stuff,that's why he was totally into the groove thing.Technique,when you got plenty,can really get in the way of what you're supposed to play as a drummer.
just my 2 cents here. [img]wink.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by D.Seipel:
is there a point in which enough is enough and it's time to focus on being more groove oriented?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you hit it on the head here, Daniel. I think we all get to a point where we gain a greater perspective on the music we play. They both got to a place where they reached a certain level of accomplishment with their technique/chops and probably didn't feel the need to be so "experimental" with that side of their playing anymore. I would also add that it's not neccesarily about simply becoming more "groove-oriented" (though sounding that way is a natural by-product) but starting to think in terms of the larger picture and making a musical statement.

I also know that for myself as a player, I was super-hungry to start doing a bunch of playing when I was in my early-mid '20s and I was overdoing it every chance I got, simply because I was so eager to prove to myself and to others that I could play and that I belonged. It was during this time that a few of my fellow musicians referred to me as a "bucking bronco"...Once I got that "out of the way"--after a few years of experience and having gained a certain level of acceptance among my musical peers, I really felt my playing settling down. I was starting to reach a new level of maturity as a musician.

So, after a while we all say, "Ask not what the music can do for you, but what you can do for the music!" [img]wink.gif[/img]

Good post, TH. [img]cool.gif[/img]

With myself, after a while there were coordination things that I had abandoned years before as being too difficult that began to naturally fall into place as I got older. These formed the basis of groove-oriented things that interested and challenged me more than the "how fast can I go?" thing. I'm hearing this more from both DW & VC. I hear some double kick groove things that Dave has been doing that fit like puzzle pieces and have very little to do with fast singles , ostinatos or hand-foot gimmicks. At one of his clinics he mentioned that this kind of thing was giving him a bigger woody these days than developing blazing speed for blazing speed's sake. There are a great deal more musical applications for these things that offer more interesting things for other musicians to play over (how many times must we remind ourselves that that is our #1 job; not what kind of wanking ability we have).

I don't look at this as "settling down" but rather exploring new territory. This comes from the maturation process. I personally, get more excited these days about getting into that zone with the other players where everything is flowing and things begin to "happen" as a result. The ego becomes collective rather than individual and is much more satisfying to the soul (and it keeps the band members from punching each other out in the parking lot as well, "You *%#@er, you stepped on my solo!").

Having seen Dave live a couple times in the last few years, I don't see him slowing down any. There's still that insanity happening, there just happens to be more of a communal thing going on as a result of maturity and having played together for a long time with his bandmates, whether it's the DWB or CCEB or whatever. The same with Vinny playing with Jing Chi or Karizma etc. Instead of driving 85 mph white-knuckled and weaving in and out of traffic pissing everyone off, they're doing 65 and driving in the flow of traffic and enjoying the ride with the other motorists.

I think it?s maturity.

When one is undeveloped and young, one often tends to concentrate on playing the instrument. Sometimes, in our zeal to excel on the instrument, we mutilate the music.

After we've mastered 75,000 ways to get fired in less than a minute, some of us realize that playing the instrument at a high level does not necessarily mean one plays the music at a similar degree. Usually by then, we've had enough hints given, or boards broken over our heads, that the less Homeresque among us take the hint and try to give the music what it needs, which often is not a lot of our instrument.

Another analogy: a skilled carpenter doesn?t always use all his tools on every job ? just the right ones. Dave and Vinnie have figured this out.

Well said!!

I remember recently telling a freind who hired a young, 20 something drummer who felt the need to strut his stuff on every tune; He's doing the same thing I did. Tries too hard to impress in the wrong way. Only after he loses quite a few gigs will he realize that maybe there's something missing in his playing. That was my story. I figured maybe there's a reason this Jeff Porcaro guy was working so much (and John Robinson, Jim Keltner, Steve Gadd etc...). I discovered the beauty in 2&4.

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Originally posted by got_a_matchgrip?:
Good post, TH. [img]cool.gif[/img]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks Fuse! (Sorry, you'll always be "Fuse" to me... [img]wink.gif[/img] )

Another analogy: a skilled carpenter doesn?t always use all his tools on every job ? just the right ones. Dave and Vinnie have figured this out.

Yeah, Riddim--perfectly put! You just got a 5-star rating from me for that.... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

-Tom

hey guys talking about Dave,

Im going to see him on thursday with the Elektric band in hong Kong and then he's coming back on the 26th for a clinic so i think i get to meet him after, if i do i will certainly tell him to check out HOD and this board and hopefully we can add him to our monster list of members!

This is like one of my theories.
In my case, and other drummers that I've seen/talked with.
When some drummers are younger, they have the ability to play tons of things. Fast and loud, etc. Their mental capacity isn't on the same level as their hands. i.e. they might not understand the hows and whys of what they're playing.
Once a certain level of maturity/exposure/education in music is reached, the head starts to "catch" the hands. Eventually, the head will surpass the hands. And now that I'm older, I have more understanding and ideas, but my hands aren't capable of "grasping" everything.
Dennis Chambers said, in a clinic one time, that he was a "better" drummer when he was younger b/c he was concentrating on things like not hitting rims and being ultra precise. But then he said priorities change.
I don't think these things applied to Vinnie and Weckl, but they're somehow related.

Thanks for listening.

Very nice thoughts from all. I appreciate the well thought out answers. Critical Thinking at its best.

Yes, good posts. The "two R's" had some great thoughts there AW. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

I think it's a natural progression. We have to spend time on technique to able to produce the sound we want. Eventually that becomes second nature and then we play music.
This is one of the only instruments where in the beginning, you mostly play on a pad. That's wierd.

To each their own we cannot put what WE think is musical in a nice neat box and say this is how one has to play or it is not the right way. The fact is guy's choose what is important to them. If guy's want to continue to push boundaries technically and creatively more power to them I do not find it to be unmusical just a different expression of music. If one wants to just hang back and play it more straight forward Great also, neither are wrong. The fact is there are a few guy's who actually did ALOT more straight forward SO called groove oriented stuff in their younger years and the older they got their insatiable curiousity grew inside of them and they felt driven to explore more on the technical and creative side as they got older, I do not fine them to be wrong for their choice of expression.

Dig

I don't think these guys have stopped pushing themselves technically. Actually, as far as technique goes, I think they are much better than they've ever been and execute at an extremely high level. They just have decided to use this amazing technique in different ways now. They might use it to adjust their touch and sensitivity on the instrument as opposed to blowing 32nd notes all over the place. To reiterate what others have said, it is all part of the maturation process. And by the way, Jeff had some amazing chops. Listen to some of the earlier stuff he played on(the live Sonny & Cher in Vegas). Joe Porcaro even has said that Jeff was scary when he was real young. He was a great example of a guy who used his chops to sculpt the feel and the groove.

Hey D.Seipel.....

Not having read the article in which you refer, I think I've interpreted two different theories here.

When you say that "Vinnie has settled down". I would agree with this. For more than one reason. I can remember a comment made by a keyboard player with Robin Ford at the time telling Vinnie to tone it down with all the chops. My guessing......... this was part of the learning curve that Vince has delt with. Give the music what it requires, and not too much more (of course it's a little different blowing with Karizma).

But I would say that if anything, Vince and Weckl have become much MORE "technical" over the years. But it's just applied in such a smoother way. Grooving is something that is totally nesscessary within a tune, but I've never seen Dave "groove" while at the same time just slaughtering the drums as I do nowadays. And he's all the more relaxed doing it now too.

Same with Vince too!! He's more of a monster nowadays when he blows over bars of music all the while making it look easier than it was 20 years ago for him!!! [img]eek.gif[/img]

I dunno.... some guys just seem to keep re-inventing themselves. I'm sure I'm leaving out a whole slew of other players that this has happened to also. Oh yeah!! Steve Smith is another perfect example of this.

Good thread man [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

As for Dave and Vinnie I think as other's have said their technique is actually better it is more refined, they are smoother, more fluid especially Dave. Their feel is more established but conceptually or even chop's wise I do not think they are really pushing new boundaries. For one example polyrhythmically they are not really doing anything that is staggering or fresh but that is O.K. because obviously it does not matter to them. There will always be others who come along pushing the boundaries it has always happened and will but these guy's are still at THE TOP of their game and the drumming world and have just gotten better with time IMO.

Dig

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For one example polyrhythmically they are not really doing anything that is staggering or fresh but that is O.K. because obviously it does not matter to them.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Um, I dn't know about that, but if you were to talk about at least one other in relation...

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There will always be others who come along pushing the boundaries it has always happened and will but these guy's are still at THE TOP of their game and the drumming world and have just gotten better with time IMO.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...you wouldn't happen to be talking about someone with the initils "V.D.," would you?! [img]wink.gif[/img]

Check Zappa's SUNPYG, & then check the intro to say the "5 Storks" tune that much later...slick, clever, & still yet very musical. [img]cool.gif[/img] [But, no insane DB modulating poly-r grooves! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ]...

I find that Weckls playing has (if possible) gone on to be even more smoothly executed.
His (stick) technique has changed rather drastically over the years, but if you watch the TUDW DVD and the Drummers Collective DVD, he is -playingwise- in as good a shape as ever!

After seeing Vinnie on that Sting / Japanes show, I will have to think that around that time - ca 10 years ago- is where Vinnie -to me!- was most on fire, technically and musically. I've seen him not long ago, and he still is "the best"-meaning, he still is so f...... unique, and his style and persona is so clear and artistically rounded, that to me it is almost not worth mentioning.

Gotta love 'em both for keeping the fire going!