The Reality

Guys, instead of being stubborn, listen up. Colaiuta is not God on the drums. HA! He's an amazing player who founded a style coming out of Tony and Gadd, including musical usage of odd groupings via Gary Chaffee.
I have countless drum tracks of his through various engineer and producer friends, Seven Days, Night Shift, tunes off of Stevie Nicks last album, Shawn Colvin's Fat City and Michelle Branch's previous to last album the spirit room. He doesn't nail the click, EVER. John Shanks told me that used the beat doctor on Vinnie's parts. That's a quantizer. So listen, think whatever makes you happy. But the reality is, Vinnie is genius, bit his time is not perfect, and he doesn't make the click dissappear. I'm sure he could if that was his goal. He is in the middle of the first call list for his groove and his ability to nail a track within 2 takes. In fact, I have Vinnie on a Kate Bush album where there quite a few late kick drum beats.
Let's not live in a fantasy, the man is human. And whoever said he could play be-bop, please...don't insult jazz. Be-Bop is a language, and it's not Chick Corea. Although Chick knows it, he used it as a foundation. Vinnie Colaiuta himself can tell you, he doesn't play Be-Bop. Ask him. I did. He also told me he's not very fond of Latin music.
Before you make a comment like that, pick up a be-bop recording, like a Clifford Brown and Max Roach CD. You'll hear a huge difference.
Vinnie Colaiuta is my favorite drummer. So I'm not trying to take anything away from him, because that's imppossible. I'm just shedding some light for some of you, because some of these comments make a few of you sound musically illiterate. Thems the facts people.
And although I really want to, I can't MP3 you the tracks I have. I'd get into a lot of trouble.
I have some of Kenny Aronoff's takes too, You'd die! He gets so far off the click. But when you hear the tracks without the click, they are GROOVIN! Go figure.

Damn!
How did you get all of those?
I agree on the bebop comment. I met Vinnie a few times, and he openly talks about that and the fact that he doesn't really
like latin. Its so funny you say that.
I remember Shawn Pelton telling me that nailing the click isn't always the way to go. I bet you it's a conscious decision on Vinnie's part. Sometimes it can stunt the energy of a track.
And Vinnie's tracks always have that great energy. Even ballads.
I hear you though SDK. He doesn't do it all. he's just a master of a particular style of playing. One of my favorites as well.
I saw him with Chaka Kahn and the time was, let's say " very human". But it felt great. Like Bernard Purdie. I sae him live a few times and he rushed like a mad man. He's on more recordings than JR. So it's not always about being perfect.

I have 6 pretty close friends that I went to school with. 3 of them are top engineers that work on tons of great sessions, 2 are producers, and 1 is mastering engineer at Master Disk in NYC. And I'm a mediocre drummer. :-)

instead of being stubborn, listen up.
Nice.
Ya know, I really don't have a problem with anyone saying negative things about the drummers we tend to like more than others. I encourage discussion of all kinds. Plus, I'm a big believer in recognizing weakness as well as strengths in my favorite players.
What I do have a problem with is anyone expressing their opinion in a condescending tone (please...don't insult jazz. ). In a tone that insinuates that they are aware of information that is so obvious to them that anyone that doesn't agree is not as smart and doesn't see as clearly.
He doesn't nail the click, EVER.
That was funny. Continuing on I'll take "Ignorant Generalizations" for two-hundred Alex.

The sad thing is if your point was presented in a mature tone then maybe people would take you seriously. It's too late for that unfortunately so have fun reading the responses you get now, as opposed to ones you could have gotten had your post been presented more constructively.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 02, 2005 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Steve Holmes ]</font>

i think it was done more as their way of getting 'back' so to speak at what I wrote about another drummer often mentioned.
replying directly to this topic would not serve much.

I'm sorry Steve, you're right. I am not an elequant writer or speaker for that matter. I meant, "EVER" on the tracks I have. I can't speak for his entire discography. I hope I didn't come off negatively. Sorry if I did. I also have immense respect for the Be-Bop language, I get testy when I hear comments that are not only off in my opinion, but off with the history of american music. You know what I mean, you're a studied musician.
You went to P.I.T right? It's like saying Ralph Humphrey can play like Chuck Flores. HA!
But other than that I agree with you. I can come off like a harsh teacher. Maybe because that's my day gig. For those who are offended by my delivery accept my appologies in advance.

Quote:

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Originally posted by SDK:
Guys, instead of being stubborn, listen up.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We'd like to listen up to those tracks to make our own opinion and maybe be less stubborn. But apparantly it's impossible.

Also, I never understood what was the big deal in nailing a click. For any experienced player, this is the easy part IMO. Now, getting off of it on purpose to give the song a different character is the hard part, and what makes a player unique IMO.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 02, 2005 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Tombo 7/4 ]</font>

Quote:

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Originally posted by SDK:
I can come off like a harsh teacher. Maybe because that's my day gig.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What do you teach?

I know I shouldn't be replying to such a post....but....

Let me just say that it's topics such as this one, started merely to instigate something, that drag a forum to its knees.

Drummers are musicians first. Click tracks are reference points. Music comes first. Music and drumming is not a competitive sport. Shame on you.

Nobody ever said he was or is perfect, and no one is. Nothing is perfect. Perfection does not exist, any educated or logical person will understand this concept.

Yo SDK
Bad Day?

Quote:

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Originally posted by SDK:
I'm sorry Steve, you're right. I am not an elequant writer or speaker for that matter...

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are right there, and I think you mean "eloquent".

Sorry, I just had to!

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Vinnie practiced to a broken metronome when he was a kid for years. Listen to Shut Up And Play Your Guitar. He can't even play straight sixteenth note fills. He plays like 17 notes over 5 and plays quintuplets and stuff. It's like he can't count to four. Can't play to a click? Just throw in some 17tuplets and your set. [img]graemlins/cry_smile.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/rainbow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/pizza.gif[/img]

I disagree with the bop comment. Listen to guys on the old recordings and tell me you don't think Vince could replicate that. Anyone who's gone through most of Chapin's book can, or anyone who's listened to their share of Bird, Diz, etc. He can swing, and he can play that style. I just don't believe that he hasn't gone through that sort of stuff. Of course he doesn't play straight-ahead styles with Chick; that's not Chick's thing. But I would like to note he's proven himself in fusion/modern jazz/big band now for a while. I guess I'll keep waiting for a straight-ahead trio recording to see if I'm right.

He ain't no Brian Blade, though, when it comes to swingin'... but i ain't either... but still, he ain't. [img]wink.gif[/img]

I was kinda wishing that he (Vinnie) sucked, cause it would make me feel better [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I am always down to hear about people not being able to totally nail the click... misery loves company [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 03, 2005 01:11 AM: Message edited by: matricks ]</font>

Sorry for coming off that way. It gets frustrating sometimes listening to comments on here that are simply not right. I tend to get egdy. HA! I had a great day actually.
I think everyone knows I wasn't insulting Vinnie's playing, so let's not jump on that bandwagon.
No Cameron, Vinnie does not sound like those guys on the old recordings. You can argue it until you're blue in the face. Vinny can't even play an open tuning bass drum, which is one of the elementary techniques of a jazz drummer. He buries the beater. And those are his words. If you think he can swing a big band like a real big band drummer, then I don't know what to say. Check out some Basie maybe? He doesn't get called for real swingin jazz gigs, or big band gigs. Vinnie is an amazing backbeat session drummer and the worlds best fusion drummer. He has taken the intstrument to new heights. Now that's my opinion. Those are mainly the type of gigs he gets called for.
Cameron, pick up Chick's Tribute to Bud Powell. Tell me straight ahead's not his thing after you give that a good listen. He comes from that, but he's not a be bop pianist. But chick, unlike Vinnie, can pull those chops out whenever he wants. Niether Max Roach Art Blakey, or Philly Joe are in Vinnie's list of influences. And Tony was not a be-bop drummer, although he came out of that.
Why is it so hard for people in here to except that Vinnie can't play traditional jazz? I'm sure if he wanted to he would, but he hasn't. I know there are some jazz guys in here that should speak up! haha!
There are very few drummers who play backbeat very well that can sit behind a four peice bebop kit, and play being true to the artform of jazz. Blade, Tain, Hass, Erskine, Hoenig, Clarence Penn, Alison Miller, Greg Hutchinson, and a few others.

Hmmmm.
I've heard Vinnie play with dead on accuracy... and with tons of up and down movement. I think he just does whatever he feels is appropriate. I agree with SDK on the jazz thing. Vinnie's not a jazz drummer. Saying that Vinnie can kill straight ahead simply insults the many drummers who spend years learning the language.
There are 2 albums that I have Vinnie on where the drums fall slightly out of the pocket on some fills. One is Kate Bush's Red Shoes( I think that's the title) and the other is Shawn Colvins Fat City.
No one is perfect 100% of the time. I think if you look past his delivery, that is all SDK is saying. I also agree on nailing the click. It's not always the musical thing to do. Especially if you're playing to existing tracks that are a little floaty.

I used to think Vinnie's jazz swing type playing was his weaker style but I could always sense that he was going to continue to improve on it. I started seeing Vinnie live in the clubs here in L.A. in 84' and never stopped. That being said, listen to an early jazz recording like Brandon Fields album "The Traveler" where he did Studio Cafe Blues, then listen to Randy Waldman's recording, basically anything from "Wigged Out" and you can here that his jazz playing has matured and the feel is more authentic than in the past. Some of the best bebop drummers of the past did their best recordings at an older age (except Tony). Saying he isn't a pure bebop player, perfect click player, or whatever is beside the point. It's his mind and the way he approaches the drumset that make him the recognizable genius that he is today. I've heard that Einstein couldn't do simple math or even balance his own finances yet he had one of the greatest scientific minds in our history. So one could make the case that because Einstein couldn't balance a check book your grandmother would be a better choice for financial advise...(huh?). That's so deep I'm not even sure of what I am saying. Basically the people that post on this site are generally into Vinnie's type of drumming along with a whole slew of other greats. Starting a debate about who is better at sticking to a click is irrelevant. For my money, I'd rather hear Vinnie play 2 & 4 anyday.....

I'm sure there are things he can't do, but he sure nails the music.

Plays the instrument nicely too.

Quote:

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Originally posted by SDK:
So listen, think whatever makes you happy.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Same to you, oh enlightened one.

Sorry, SDK, I don't mean to belabor this, but I too get testy when I read things I know for a fact are simply not true. As I stated, I've experienced first-hand (first-EARS! [img]wink.gif[/img] ) just how well Vinnie plays with a click--LONG before any Pro Tools editing would be done. On the Kimotion Tracking sessions, he absolutely buried the click--made it disappear. And in odd-times like 13/16, as well as 4/4! Utterly astounded me, the sheer accuracy, as well as the insane intensity level he kept up...

We all know the guy's human. Nobody's perfect. And maybe due to others in the band, or other circumstances, he chooses at times to play with a bit more elasticity, perhaps? Maybe that's what you're getting at. But I know for certain that he can and does play with total precision in the studio.

Just my $.02, thanks!
-Tom

I don't take anything this guy(SDK) says seriously...he's usually way off the mark.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 03, 2005 12:47 AM: Message edited by: cjbdrm ]</font>

..."HA!" [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 03, 2005 05:55 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

Just a word about Burnard Purdie, and playing to a click.
Flarobstix, mentioned that he had seen Burnard Purdie, live a few times and he rushed like a mad man. Also saying he had played on more recordings than JR! He was implying that Burnard probably couldn't play with a click as well!
Several years ago I produced a drum sample CD featuring Bernard, on drums. It was recorded in New York, at the same studio Steve Gadd, did his In Session video(FYI). We used CD's for him to play along with to record his drum tracks but on the second day I thought I would play a click track (Uri click, used by all the big studios for years)and let him play his grooves to see if it would make a difference in his feel and timing. The engineer put on the click and I told Bernard, to play a groove and give me fills every now and then. He stared playing his Purdie shuffle and I asked the engineer if he turned the click off? He said no! That was the first time I had experienced burying the click. I gave him click tracks at different tempos and every time he would bury the click. It was an amazing thing to see and hear first hand.
So, Flarobstix, live and studio are two different worlds don't mix the two.
As far as Vinnie, playing with a click, on or off he sounds good to me, but what do I know?

Something to keep in mind about the topic of "burying the click" is that sometimes these guys intentionally shy away from doing it. Maybe the tune requires them to play "around" the click to let things breath as opposed to being spot on. Maybe the other tracks that have been put down first aren't 100% and in order to make the whole thing sit right they have to split the difference.
CB

P.S. I say BP sit in with Karizma at a DW NAMM show party and he was not rushing or dragging. I believe they were playing a half time 16note groove on a tune called Donna. The groove was so intense that I almost came unglued.

Hey now!

I NEVER said Pretty Purdy can't paly to a click. That's an outrageous statement about the "worlds most recorded drummer". I just said that his time live and on certain studio recordings was all over the place, but grooved like hell.
Phew!! I wouldn't say that. Kill me if I do.

Wow.....

See what happens when you come down with the flu...?? You miss all the negative topics.

Wow!! How could you even think about critisizing Vinces Jazz abilities?? How could you even think about critisizing Vince?? It would be like me telling Lance Armstrong how to ride a bike.

Even if somebody sucked at something and I knew it, I'd say something like "you sound great man!!". It speaks loudly when somebody has to validate themselves by putting down anothers playing. And to go as far as saying "please don't insult Jazz??". You've got some big balls buddy.

You should know that there are "lurkers" on this board, and I've sent Vince a few of the threads from time to time. I won't bother with this one, because as steve said, it ain't constructive.

Just remember this...... as a good friend/drummer once told me. "The drumming community is a tight knitted one.... be carefull what you say about someone else, because you'd be surprised at how it gets back to those you talk chit about".

I think Vinnie is a fantastic Jazz player. Just listen to the Eric AMrienthal tune that Steve has hosted. Wether someone is as good as bla bla blady bla is one of the most annoying aspects of any human conversation. And at the level of musicianship we are discussing we are only talking about opinions and situations and fractions of percentages...in other words it just ain't worth talking about....

.....unless you want to get the sharp edge of the management's and Hod faithfull's tongues....which you have.

"The Reality" is this: This site is getting wierd! One of the things I used to like about this site was the absence of these kind of bush league fights. There are plenty of other goofy sites out there if people want to get involved in internet brawls(it is very easy to type a bunch of "stuff" that you wouldn't normally say to someones face and hit the send button). The lack of this kind of thing is what kept me coming back to this place(and talking bout Vinnie, Carlos, Jeff, Gadd, Weckl, etc..). There aren't any other sites that I know of that have the likes of Peter Erskine and Gary Husband posting. That is a nod to this sites reputation. Lets not screw it up. Everybody be cool! At the end of the day, it is just drums. And remember, all these guys that we may not dig still work a hell of a lot more than most. Some may like Vanilla and some Chunky Monkey but we all like icecream (Geez Drumaddict, now I don't know what I'm saying either).
Love, Peace and chicken grease,
CB
P.S. Drumaddict, you're the best! You too Douglee.
Yes, and you too Randy.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CBrady:
[QB]"The Reality" is this: This site is getting wierd!

[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Grovesmitty....

Welcome to HOD. Hope you'll enjoy the interaction here.

But respectfully.... I completely disagree with you.

I'm sure you've seen Vince play in the Buddy Rich memorial video, and he cleans house with his "Jazz playing". Along with the Randy Waldman CD's that are just pure Jazz insanity.

I love and had heard plenty of the drummers in which you mention. I personally love the "communication" that Vince emits when he plays Jazz time. It's like no other really. While I still hold total respect for all the drummers you mentioned as the guys that brought us traditional styles of Jazz, Swing, Bop, etc.

I guess I would, as I'm sure Vince would get really pissed if somebody told me I was an insult to Jazz. That is rubbish.

Just because most of the recording or live dates Vinnie does isn't "Jazz", doesn't mean he can't "communicate" at a level very few could even ever achieve.

Sorry to be so blunt.

Perhaps my definition of jazz is different than everyone else's, but I define it as improvisation over form. But that's just me.
Listening to jazz from the fifties and sixties may be nostalgic and a great learning tool, but for the most part, it bores me to tears. For that matter, I think MOST music bores me to tears. I can't remember the last jazz (never mind rock or pop) record I bought that moved me significantly. Pat Metheny's latest is pretty good - and I quite like that Scofield record with Stewart on drums, but for the most part, I think jazz is sick and needs resuscitation.

I think Vinnie Colaiuta is one of the greatest improvisers of all time, and his musical vocabulary speaks to me in a way that the supposed 'fathers of jazz' do not (as do Jack De Johnette & Erskine).

Not to be insulting but I have to agree with JM. Who's to say that jazz as an artform can't progress. Does every "Jazz Drummer " have to sound like Philly, Max, Tony, Elvin, etc... Vinnie really has brought something unique to the table that is new and refreshing. His style isn't a throwback to the Jazz Masters of the past but is more of a progress of jazz to come. He may in fact be ahead of his time with what he is doing in the drumworld altogether. Many Jazz Critics didn't think of Buddy Rich as a true "Jazz Drummer" either but that's because he didn't play the expected fills and keep time like the jazz snobs of the time wanted to hear. He was obviously ahead of his time since his style has yet to be duplicated (although Louie gave him a good run for his money!). The present state of drumming clearly shows that the lines of style are becoming blurred. Horacio can swing his ass off while doing a left foot clave, Vinnie can play a country tune and add a fusion lick that works, Dennis can play a 1/2 time shuffle while doing John Bonham type foot patterns,etc. This doesn't mean that playing a traditional style of any kind of music is not valid, it just means that guys like Vinnie can and should be accepted as multi-style musicians with a unique voice. I would think that is the goal of any well rounded drummer, right?

Vinnie is one of the few drummers who can play jazz and rock and sound authentic in each. The comment on Vinnie not having the language like others is a bit off. Jazz is a collective improvisational experience. Keep good band time and being sensitive to others is key. Vinnie can do that. You don't have to copy what people did in order to play jazz. It's sad that people think you have to play a Max Roach lick in order to be welcomed into the jazz family.

The notion that Vinnie can't play, or is not as good as others jazz is wrong. He is a very accomplished drummer. He can get the job done.
Put in a in a situation where he has to play ding dinga-ling, and he will sound great.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 02:19 AM: Message edited by: FlamTriplet ]</font>

Jesus Wynton Marsalis is needed in this situation.

Jazz is not simply improvising over a form. Jazz as Groovesmitty said, and as I have said in here, is a language. It's not just spangalang. And it has NOTHING to do with independence and Jim Chapin. Baby Dodds had hardly any jazz ride independence.
It's musical. Everything Groovesmitty stated was elementary. And in jazz music, you have to know the language before you make it your own. Just because someone's a genius drummer, and creative, DOES NOT mean they play jazz. Vinnie can solo over straight no chaser for days, it still wouldn't be jazz. I guess everyone has their own idea of what they think jazz is in this day and age. On the drums this is what I think it is as most famous jazz artists would agree:

1. Having great swing time and ride cymbal feel where you can feel the 2+4 in the time without the hi hat, and having a dark sounding ride that compliments acoustic instruments.

2. Knowing all the melodies and harmonic progressions to every song in the American song book. Every song.

3. Knowing "key" melodic question and answer phrases created by the jazz forefathers, otherwise known as quote's and line cliche's. Some of these demand accent and phrases from the drummer after they are played. Every jazz drummer knows and responds to these.

4. A jazz drum sound. Drums with an open tuning, including the bass drum, to coincide with the acoustic bass. Drum sizes vary.

5. A jazz vocabulary. A knowledge of how to communicate in jazz. Not in music in general. JAZZ. Knowing why musicians like Bird and Dizzy played what they played and being able to transfer that to the drums. Knowing when a soloist will leave a hole and knowing how to fill it. Comping with the left hand in accordance to the soloist.

6. Playing brushes. Getting that wide sound when playing a ballad. Having at least 3 brush strokes for ballads. playing a brush solo by sweeping only. Playing up tempo swing at 420.
Soloing with brushes over a very slow ballad.

If a drummer can't do the above with ease, they don't play jazz.
Even modern players like Paul Motian, Jack, and Ersko can go back to the roots above.

There's a difference between getting the job done, and being a jazz drummer. Of course V.C and many other great drummers who aren't jazz drummers can merely get the job done and throw in some amazing creative rhythms. Doesn't mean its jazz. Getting the job done is not being true to the only real American art form.

You know, playing at the Buddy Rich MSC , does not mean that one is a jazz drummer. That was blow fest. A drum clinic. It wasn't jazz drumming. The only jazz drumming that night was by Steve Arnold, Louis Bellson, and Steve Gadd. And Gadd being out of his element, at least tried to stay true to the art.
Like Groove said. Jazz is an art form. You can't just play some sick rhythms over a form, and call it jazz.

Jazz is not a free music. It's a language, and if you don't know the language and are able to improvise using the language within a song form. You're not playing it. Even when Jack goes off on some free form drum solo, you can still hear elements of Max Roach and Elvin Jones.

And I really do think saying certain players are fluent in an art form that takes a lifetime to master is an insult. I would never come in here and say " oh, I saw Jeff Hamilton play in a rock band and man, he was really laying down a behind the beat pocket like Porcaro's and playing over the bar line figures like Vinnie". For anyone to say that Vinnie can play jazz and sub in the late Ray Brown's Band for Jeff Hamilton, is a bit of a sacrelig. And essentially, that's Wecks mechanic is saying. Brown is not with us, but even he was, that would never happen.
Have respect for the drummers who spend their careers mastering this art, and don't say that even the best of the best of modern music like VC, not knowing any of the language can come in hang authentically. No way. Never.

Maybe this is kinda like a difference in opinon when people describe what they see as being jazz.
My personal definition is kinda like drumming sorta persons... i think its anything(well, anything really is a bad word but i guess what im trying to say is that the shape can vary) thats improvisational over a form. I dont think its strictly swing and i dont think that just because you cant play a brush solo with sweeps only, you cant play jazz. ( or the gear thing for that matter... having dark cymbals or having tuned up but not muffled drums.... what about big-band? isnt it better to use brighter cymbals? and what about say zach danzieger with wayne krantz? isnt that considered jazz? a) that sounds nothing like miles or coltrane, and b) his kick has a hole in it!)

I agree that jazz is certainly not about teh chapin book and just because you can play the chapin book doesnt mean you speak jazz.

What I cant really agree on is that jazz is such a narrow genre the way you some of you seem to put it. I have the Laboriel Mathieson Landau and Colaiuta live at the potato CD and when i saved it on the computer it came out as jazz. I thought it was fusion... but when you think about it fusion is like rocky jazz isnt it? My Weckl Synergy CD also came up as jazz. Smooth jazz is called smooth JAZZ even though it doesnt sound anything like parker or dizzy. My point is that arent you guys arguing that hes not good at a particular sub-group of jazz instead of hes not good at jazz period?

I think Vinne can play jazz. it maybe different from what it sounds like when max roach or whoever plays, but its just a different kind of jazz. It might not be his best genere or whatever but I really do think he sounds good when he plays.

I thought that Buddy Rich scholarship thing was some of the most bad-ass playing ive ever seen. It really hit me super hard in my mind... thats what I want to be like! what energy he has! I dunno what you guys think about if its authentic big-band or what because honestly i havnt listend to much big band ever.... but i thought that was killer no matter how you tried to categorize his playing. He comes from a different era of music than say Sonny payne or Buddy Rich or whoever. He probably doesnt approach the music the same way as them... but i think he kills on whatever he plays. To me it doesnt matter if he dosent swing like art blakey or whatever. Vinnie is Vinnie and hell play the music like how he plays it.

I know you guys arent insulting him by saying he cant play jazz, but the wording just sounded wierd to me thats all. I mean for those of you who think his jazz isnt authentic... the people who hire him probably think hes good at what he does... and also, no ones forcing him to play it. He doesnt have to play swing type jazz if he doesnt want to.. and he wont play latin music if he doesnt want to . he doesnt have to ... so in a sesne i dont think its really a minus if he says he cant play these styles. I mean who cares? Hes super great anyway!

English is my first language along with japanases... but now im starting to think that i suck at it... am I making sense it all? haha

(by the way when reading about the whole click thing i was wondering,,, but is it just me or is there one part in the song that goes "heavy clouds but no rain" on the ten summoners tale album that is kinda off when the band stops when Sting says "heavy clouds but no rain" and vinnie does the pick up on the hi-hat? I thought it was like just a little off and thought it was wierd. or are my ears broken?

-GoMan

Here's my twopennorth from across the pond - hope it won't rattle too many cages!? Let me start by saying that this forum, and Steve's site, have, for me ,replaced the drum mags which I used to devour by the bucketload! The discussions, tips, and sheer relevance of the information contributed by the community is unparalelled - anywhere!
When I read and see so much detailed discussion and dissection in the minutest detail down to nanosecond delays ,of what is essentially an emotive art form, I feel a bit - don't know....frustrated? What I do know is that, for me at least, when a piece of music, or drumming, can make me go Whoaaaaa!, that's all that matters - the reaction.It can be the simplest groove tune,like Tempted ( Squeeze) or a driving big band ( my first love) - like Vinnie's tour de force with the Buddy Band...as long as it moves me, and either makes me want to dance ( not a pretty sight), or drum, or just nod my head like a peckin' chicken or whatever, then music's done its job for me.
[img]wink.gif[/img]

Quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
instead of being stubborn, listen up.
Nice.
Ya know, I really don't have a problem with anyone saying negative things about the drummers we tend to like more than others. I encourage discussion of all kinds. Plus, I'm a big believer in recognizing weakness as well as strengths in my favorite players.
What I do have a problem with is anyone expressing their opinion in a condescending tone (please...don't insult jazz. ). In a tone that insinuates that they are aware of information that is so obvious to them that anyone that doesn't agree is not as smart and doesn't see as clearly.
He doesn't nail the click, EVER.
That was funny. Continuing on I'll take "Ignorant Generalizations" for two-hundred Alex.

The sad thing is if your point was presented in a mature tone then maybe people would take you seriously. It's too late for that unfortunately so have fun reading the responses you get now, as opposed to ones you could have gotten had your post been presented more constructively.

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ May 02, 2005 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Steve Holmes ]</font></font>

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Steve,

Your point is well taken, but, it seems to me that you might be inferring a level of sarcasm that was written but not intended. Perhaps it's not realistic to expect such an artful use of the language on a public drummers forum.

PS: SDK, I'm not as familiar with Vinnie's playing as many here. But, from what I have heard of his playing, I suspect that, if he doesn't play bop like Max, Elvin, Philly Joe, Art, Roy, etc., it's by choice. Just because Gonzalo Rubalcaba doesn't sound like Oscar Peterson doesn't mean he couldn't if he wanted to. Does any one doubt that Vladamir Horowitz didn't play the classics in the 20th century they way they were originally played in the 19th and 18th? Does anyone doubt that he could?

Vinnie is probably at that level of musicianship. Look, I'm not a big fan of Vinnie's swing feel. But, after hearing and seeing the level that he plays at, I wouldn't presume that the because he doesn't play swing the way I would best understand it, that he couldn't if he wanted to, or that my sense of swing is more legitimate than his.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>

Hi!
Wow, Vdrummer stated in my introductory post,
a kind of apologetic comment about these heated posts.
I think peoples opinions combined with fact makes for
good discussion. Why should everything be positive all the time?
Music reflects life, and in life we have both positivity and negativity.
Joel, I don't think someone is out of line by defending the jazz tradition. Do you remember the Marvin Smith interview in Modern Drummer Magazine where he talked down about Weckl being called a jazz drummer? It was a famous dispute where Weckl actually phoned Smith to ask why he said that. That's a sensitive issue.
I'm an outsider looking in on this thread, and to be completely honest, from what I read, the Vinnie Colaiuta fans cannot accept the fact that Vinnie is not a jazz drummer. I can't fathom why. Most musicians especially from Vinnie's generation, have their "thing".
It's not an insult to say that. It's a simple observation. Vinnie is not in any jazz drummer history books or publications, and is not considered by jazz critics or jazz musicians to play that style. To use your phrase, I don't think "big balls" are required to defend a style of music you love, when it's being mis-represented. It was not a negative comment.
Why not turn this into an opportunity to learn about jazz, rather than discrediting the comment. The members talking about Max, Philly, and Art had a serious point. Pick up some of those albums, and then pick up some albums by their contemporaries like Lewis Nash, Jeff Hamilton, Kenny Washington and Jack DJ. You'll notice a language being spoken. Although they all play very different, there are levels of musical communication there. You would not get defensive if I said "Vinnie doesn't speak French" would you? Well jazz is a language, and although Vinnie uses many of the same figures as Tony Williams, he does not use the musical language of traditional jazz when he phrases and places them within the structure of the music. He probably doesn't have interest in it. The comment made, was not tactful at all, but it is very true. Any teacher of the art form of jazz would concur.
As far as the other concerning click and no click, I think that is all rubbish. Now, we're entering the realm of the man's element. He's one of the best in the world at recording modern music styles. Another observation.
Well, I think I'm ready for bed. It's almost 1am here.
It's great to have discovered this forum. I'm looking forward to haveing a place to to talk drums!
Thank you,
John