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Well, it's working for me. Everything seems to be falling into place so much better. It allows me to feel freer to make music instead of 'worrying' as much about the time. Of course, I'm always focused on the time, but it makes me feel so much more confident because I'm nailing things more precisely. Switching back to index finger feels horrible and tight now. Y'all gotta switch if you haven't as yet! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Good to see it's coming along Rudy,
Keep us all up to date with he progress...
MP
Yeah mark, it's thanks to you and dazzler for clarifying it to me over a pint. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I'm not sure I'm doing it 'perfectly' but it feels good and I can notice the difference on gigs now. The real test though is recording myself and hearing if everyone is locking better.
Moving away from the index finger fulcrum is one of the best things I've ever done. I was getting tendinitis in my index finger knuckle where it meets the hand and in my elbow.
Moving the fulcrum into my hand solved that problem immediately. Sometimes it goes even further back into my hand and is not really a fixed focused point.
Can't go back to first finger since i tested second finger [img]wink.gif[/img]
After the talk we had last week when we talked about playing finger control palm down with second finger as fulcrum, i watched again Joe Morello Video and even he use palm up ( french grip ) for finger control he played a moment finger control with a kinda palm down, he didn't change the place of the stick in his hand ( i tested that before, move the balance point to first finger when playing finger control with this grip ) , i don't know if he changed somehow his grip when he play finger control palm down with this grip, maybe he didn't changed on the video because he just played this fews seconds..
Maybe i'll post this part of the video, can be interesting to discuss about that [img]tongue.gif[/img]
rudy, your avatar is hilarious!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hilarious? I've been watching it for an hour now, and he never stops going around those toms. Doesn't he get bored, or tired? How long do I have to watch before he pulls out of that fill?Quote:
Originally posted by shedder:
rudy, your avatar is hilarious!
[img]eek.gif[/img]
Here it is, Joe Morello video part [img]tongue.gif[/img]
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/drumperso/Joe%20Morello%20.mpg
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 03, 2005 12:45 PM: Message edited by: donu ]</font>
Perfect, thanks...
I already learned all of that from Dom Famularo's Vic Firth vids...
[img]wink.gif[/img]
Haha, I 'stole' that avatar from another drum site. If anyone knows how to make an animated weckl one for me, same size, I'd be grateful. [img]cool.gif[/img]
Well, the grip is definitely working, or at least, it's making it easier on my gigs where I'm playing to tracks. Haven't tested it properly playing just 'live' with no tempo reference or click helping me. I hope when I record myself that I hear a difference. I mean, I should do, but I'm well aware that what sounds and feels great doesn't always translate that way when we listen back.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Luckily, when I picked up the cudgels two years ago, I went straight to that grip. Nothing to unlearn. Couldn't imagine doing it any other way.Quote:
Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
Y'all gotta switch if you haven't as yet!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Neither WMP nor my DivX player recognise the audio stream in that video - anyone else? Bueller?Quote:
Originally posted by donu:
Here it is, Joe Morello video part
(I love the way this icon of jazz drumming is sitting there in a Harley tee-shirt...)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Neither WMP nor my DivX player recognise the audio stream in that video - anyone else? Bueller?Quote:
Originally posted by moosetication:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by donu:
Here it is, Joe Morello video part
(I love the way this icon of jazz drumming is sitting there in a Harley tee-shirt...)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right, audio was not compressedto .mp3 and for strange reason i cannot compress this ac3 audio to .mp3, So this is the original file: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/drumperso/Joe%20Morello%20.mpg
It's a mpeg2, if you cannot open it you can use this free VLC software: http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I played this way when I was younger but changed so I could play "correctly" using that thumbs up French grip finger control thing that went with the high, almost vertical cymbals and all that other cool jazz fusion shit from the 70's. As time went on and aches and pains became a concern, I started to go back to what felt comfortable, but still felt apprehensive as I felt I was going against some rule of proper technique. After all, everyone played that way. As I reached my 40's it all began to come full circle as I became more conscious of drumming ergonomics. Now, it's "use the correct technique for what you are trying to play." For the majority of things it's the palm down middle finger fulcrum. When I need the finer muscles for finger control it's the thumbs up index fulcrum. And there are other variations of the two as well. I don't limit myself to only the two ways.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So it's not just me? I too have to use the index finger fulcrum for tighter rolls and faster D & B, Jungle stuff. Has anyone on here gotten to the point where they can play <u>everything</u> with and as good as with the old fulcrum? I'm definately on my way to gaining more strength, but I still feel a little insecure in certain areas of my playing using the NEWQuote:
Originally posted by Roy Cameron:
Same here Sammy....I switched about 3 years ago and really feel it has helped. My hands never get tired anymore. I don't feel as if I've mastered it by any means, but at the moment I don't think I could go back to using index finger, except for buzz rolls.
Thanks, Sammy J
i use the standard fulcrum with more of a locked grip for most contemporary stuff. the idea is playing more from the side of the drum and using far more wrist than bounce. one has so much control this way, over dynamics especially. also this is the way to play powerfully. flat wrists with all fingers touching the stick. too many people rely on just the two fingers in the fulcrum, this leads to too much pressure on those fingers and a sloppy sound.
i have experimented with the gruber approach but find that it would be better suited to jazz or lighter music. thing is with weckl and smith (the main people that preach this stuff) is that they are leading their own bands and come out on stage each night and play at THEIR tempos and THEIR volume for as long as THEY want.....they are not asked to play anything or at any certain volume or simply play solid and loud for 3 hrs!!
my grip is not quite as extreme as virgils for example, but i feel this grip and approach has transformed my playing....my sound is cleaner and i have much more CONTROL over the drumset. i play the drums rather than the drums playing me.
What about guys like Pete Drummond? He does all of the things you mentioned whilst maintaining a middle finger fulcrum, and relaxation...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think we should clarify one thing that is not clear: Dave talk about 2 things on this DVD: using second finger rather then first for fullcrum and using rebound of the stick.Quote:
Originally posted by palmerlouie:
i use the standard fulcrum with more of a locked grip for most contemporary stuff. the idea is playing more from the side of the drum and using far more wrist than bounce.
I can understand that using second finger was new for Dave but Why he seem to discover using rebound of the stick when he talk about his lessons with Grubber ? is it the case or I misunderstand something ?
Using rebound of the stick should be the used whatever we use first or second finger right ?....
I agree Donu. Rebound and relaxation are the key, more than which fulcrum you use in my opinion.
I've been playing with the fulcrum switched to my middle finger for 3-4 years now and it's totally saved my live performance. I attack the drums pretty hard and was finding with the combination of stage anxiety (stage fright) and hard hitting, was cramping and blowing out my hands by the third song into a set. I've come to find a pretty nice balance now. There are some things where I need to revert to the old index finger fulcrum but on heavy bashing parts or just grooving, I can just let the stick flop a little looser and save my strength for more demanding playing. I've been working pretty consistently and hard for a few years now at it, but I feel that I still have a long way to go. Has anyone mastered it with in a short period of time or is it, (like most things), a life long journey to master it. When watching the Weckl video, he shows how to use it in the explanation part of the video but then when playing to the tracks, reverts back to his old technique. Anybody else notice that? Funny.
Anywayz, I'd recommend trying it if anyone's had trouble with cramping, live fatigue or just want a looser approach.
Peace, Sammy J
Same here Sammy....I switched about 3 years ago and really feel it has helped. My hands never get tired anymore. I don't feel as if I've mastered it by any means, but at the moment I don't think I could go back to using index finger, except for buzz rolls.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok so Why Dave seem to discover that on his DVD ?...Quote:
Originally posted by Derek DeFields:
I agree Donu. Rebound and relaxation are the key, more than which fulcrum you use in my opinion.
I agree with Palmerlouie what Dave and Smith employ suits what THEY DO, especially speaking of volume and dynamics. I have seen these guy's enough to know they play pretty the same way all the time even when branching out to other styles they still come across physically in the same manner. Having to play much more aggressive music in general, much more volume, different use of dynamics, more speed at times even certain physical concepts employed affects the grip one is using to a degree.
Dig
I thought I'd resurrect this post briefly just to point out that I'd always thought Vinnie Colaiuta was of the 2nd finger fulcrum technique. I was just going through some of the interviews at his website and he said (Drums & Drumming, '91), "I try to keep the fulcrum between the thumb and the first joint of my index finger and I cup my fingers around the stick". I also find myself switching between the two depending on song, attitude, lunar appearance, etc.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I remember saw him use second finger as fulcrum, particularly for rideQuote:
Originally posted by piccupstix:
I thought I'd resurrect this post briefly just to point out that I'd always thought Vinnie Colaiuta was of the 2nd finger fulcrum technique. I was just going through some of the interviews at his website and he said (Drums & Drumming, '91), "I try to keep the fulcrum between the thumb and the first joint of my index finger and I cup my fingers around the stick". I also find myself switching between the two depending on song, attitude, lunar appearance, etc.
it's really scary for me making a reply on this kinds of thread... "technique"... being NOT formally trained drummer I just learned thru workshops and some PRO-Drummer friends...
I tried this technique when I got this Weckl evolution technique video... I've been using it for months now, it really feels different, looser on the hands while doing grooves but I can't use it yet for fill stuff... it feels like the stick is gonna fall off your hand [img]frown.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did you see at the end of the DVD when he talk about where and how to place toms ?Quote:
Originally posted by tradfreak:
I tried this technique when I got this Weckl evolution technique video... I've been using it for months now, it really feels different, looser on the hands while doing grooves but I can't use it yet for fill stuff... it feels like the stick is gonna fall off your hand [img]frown.gif[/img]
If stick fall time to time again when you discover this grip it's a good sign, that mean you are loose enough, then with time and Practice you will find the right pression necessary to play loose but not loose you stick
What helped my for using this grip for tom's was to practice even more on pad, to more fell good with this grip, then it was more easy to use it for toms, don't go to fast trying using this grip on tom before you master enough this grip on snare [img]wink.gif[/img]
I also Highly recommend you the Gary Chaffee book: Sticking Patterns, once you master it on pad play accent on toms and ghost note on snare, it's like magical [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Like you i didn't learn with great teacher, it's just my experience and what work for me that i suggest to you [img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 12, 2005 07:55 AM: Message edited by: donu ]</font>
thanks donu... yeah i'll try to look for that book, what I have is Gary C's sticking, linear time feels & polyrythms video, doing his linear stuff making use of accents and ghostnotes etc.
he mentions VC there...