click live

Have any of you guys got any suggestions for how to play with a click live? As a band we use in ear monitors or though I don't, I prefer to monitor in the tradtional way with an amp set up to my left. If I start using them can I take a click into my ear monitors and not the rest of the band.....any one done this?

Also any suggestions on hand held tempo devices I can use when playing the set just to get an accurate count off tempo? I have a crappy little Seiko that only goes up in 4 BPS groups.

The band had a little....ahem...tempo "discussion" last night...

Hey Gary....Others certainly know more about this than me but the answer is yes. Any click generating device...Alessis, Rhythm Watch...whatever could be used I think. I intend to plug my Alessis into my Oz HM6 headphone amp (once it arrives) then use my In ears. With the HM6 I can input any mix I want including the click.

yes it can be done, by using a sub mixer you can pan the click to one side and the music/band to the other.

So, Randy does my method above seem like it will work? will I have to settle for a panned effect? Alternatively maybe you can tell me how you would set up the following from a drum chair perspective. Powered mixer, unpowered submixer, In ears, Oz HM6 headphone amp, Alessis-16

I assume the headphone amp is self powered so having a powered mixer is overkill, a standard mixer will do fine.
Panning is not necessary unless there is only 1 mix available to both you and the band, then you would have to pan to one side.
So, if the band sends you a feed into your sub mixer, then the click (whatever it may be) can be on another channel, then send the mix to your headphone amp and out to your ears.

1 more thing, if your using a Mackie for a 'main' mixer, it has 4 pre/post aux sends, if your using a bigger board, it will have aux sends, plus having both group sends and matrix sends.
More then enough capability for sending a mix to yourself of the band.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 12, 2005 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Randy Walker ]</font>

Thanks once again Randy...Yes HP amp is powered. The Oz can take 6 different inputs so then this set up should work fine. In your experience how often might performers use a click while gigging....can I expect it to be helpful or not

I don't what type of gig you are doing or trying for, I mean the average 'club' gig band won't use it unless they are sequenced, but on the other hand, if the time is important to you, then you could map out tempos of tunes and just play to it on the gig and the band would only know that the time is solid.
Same can be said for a touring gig, I know a few country guys whom do this type of setup.

Using a click for practicing is always helpful, if you feel uncomfortable on the gig about tempos doing the up and down, then using it in this way would be great.

So Randy....

Assuming I can get an individual mix from the board....what equipment do I need in order to get a mix into my headphones that includes a click.

I have a yamaha clickstation.

Do I understand correctly that I need a headphone amp and a mixer?

Actually, the headphone is more of an extra item, since most boards like the Mackie have an amped headphone out.
A small 2-4 channel board such as Mackie/Behrenger will do fine.
I can't imagine the average gig would use more then 2 auxs for monitors, which would mean you would have an aux just dedicated to your own mix.

We seem to be in a situation where not everything goes into the Mackie. Voice and one guitar and my drums from a submixer (sending a stereo feed) is going there while Bass and 2 other guitars are using their amps solely and not micing into the main mixer. I would love to hear your comment on this arrangement. I chose the HM6 so I could choose who and what comes to me and to be able to adjust it accordingly. The Powered Mackie has 8 XLR in puts I believe...tell me how you'd set this up with regards to all players!

so, you are already submixing your dums to the house.
if the other guitars and bass are not miking the cabs or sending a direct line out from the amp to the board then there is really nothing you can do. You could suggest having the bass player run a direct line out of his amp to your mixer and pan it so to only go into your ear mix and not to the house with your drum feed.

Yep, submixing drums to house and intend to do what you've described. I was just wondering if you would have encouraged everybody to try and get into the Mackie for best results. Hypothetically speaking of course lets just say there is a guitar that I don't need (want) to hear. Not taking a main mix and creating my own via the HM6 would be better yeah?

well, see i would create a sub/aux mix from the board nd send it to my headphone/submixer to ears mix.
Of course I would suggest putting a mic on the guitar amps and running a direct out from the bass. This way you can control the overall sound of the band thru the mains and 'hopefully' control stage volume! LOL

The only bad part about being the only one in the band listening to the click...is that you're the only one listening to the click. So, you could expect some timing conflicts in that regard. Another way to go is to create a musical sounding click that will sound good to an audience, such as a shaker, cowbell, woodblock etc. pattern.

The craziest "click" that I ever played to live was a pattern of hand claps where nothing was on the beat, everything was mostly on the e's or ah's.

When I saw Vinnie with Faith Hill, they had click running through the in ears. Vinnie even let me hear his mix which was really bass and kick drum heavy. It's always interesting checking that out.
There was a Hass thread back a few months ago, where I reviewed a few of his gigs here in NYC and he played to click on all of them. He was the only one listening to it, he would count off all the tunes. It was a Tama rhythm watch going straight into his in-ears. There were no time conflicts whatsoever with the musicians. Then again, great musicians know how to listen and hook up with a drummer. Go to Hass' board and ask him about that Gary. He's good with responses.
I also saw Shawn Pelton doing the same thing. Monitors, click in the ear. If you do that on every gig, it must do wonders for your time consistency after a few months. I wonder....

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. Another way to go is to create a musical sounding click that will sound good to an audience, such as a shaker, cowbell, woodblock etc. pattern.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I second that. If you have to do it.

I really don't like the idea of playing to the click live -- I realize people do it, but it just goes against my thinking. I know how to keep time -- I'm not a great chop drummer, but I can keep time.

I can understand it in a recording studio, but in a club, boy I don't know.

In my top40 band we play all songs with click since there are sequencerparts in all songs. I use the TD-6 from Roland and have for each song the tempo's set which I start/stop on my pole-KAT with additional sounds on two Roland pads next to my acoustic equipment. I master the sequencer via MIDI with a count in of 2 bars before it starts. My sounds are all on the left and my click panned to the right which are both channeled via a DI box to the monitormixer. We have 16 channels and we can all make our own mix which we can hear in our in-ear system. I don't think it is an advantage if all the bandmembers have the click because everyone interpret it different. I also think that hearing the click via one (I preffered two) floormonitors is fighting against frequencies. You will turn the volume up to dangerous damaging levels at the end of the gig because your ears get used to the level. I have ultimate ears three-way in-ears and before that I started with a Sony headphone in a Behringer mixer. The monitormix line came in as also my click but with a sub behind me for bassdrum. Since the in-ears it isn't necessary anymore. I am happy and never have ringing ears after a gig. Maybe this info helps you. JP

ei guys just a suggestion... I heard someone does his "live click set up" to ear monitors w/ the rest of the Band also, I guess it makes sense considering all of you would know where the tempo is [img]smile.gif[/img]

I agree with using a percussion sound playing a rhythm part (yes, if you have to use it. I feel clicks can be too confining and dictatorial live). It's much more of a musical thing. If all you hear all night is that static click, it can eventually drive you mad.

If you are playing to sequences, simply add some percussion to the sequence; there's your click.

Use as little gear as you can get away with if you really have to go this route. From experience, the more you have to screw with the greater chance that Murphy's Law will bite you in the ass. I fired my electronics three years ago and I've never been happier (I'm only using a Mackie and mics now).

If there's a time problem in the band the very best remedy is for all band members to practice using a click and everyone shares the responsibility equally. If the drummer is the only one with good time and everyone else's sucks then all the clicks in the world won't fix it. The drummer's job is not to keep time but make the time feel good. It's everybody's job to keep time (listen to bluegrass bands and ethnic ensembles sans percussion).

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Originally posted by tradfreak:
ei guys just a suggestion... I heard someone does his "live click set up" to ear monitors w/ the rest of the Band also, I guess it makes sense considering all of you would know where the tempo is [img]smile.gif[/img]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sharing the click on stage with a full band is HELL. Don't EVEN think about it.

Some good advice, here.

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Sharing the click on stage with a full band is HELL. Don't EVEN think about it.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL...I fully AGREE. [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Unless you have other great timekeepers-to-the-click in the band & THEY want to hear what you're hearing AW, an entire-band rareity sometimes [img]wink.gif[/img] ] But more often than not - NOT. /;cp

I've been in a long running pop-top 40/"variety"/dance/rock bands & also a contempo-crossover-country/comedy/showtunes act, both of which had clicked/sequenced tunes AWA not.

I had a Mackie 12 ch board sub-mix, with stereo channels assigned for each accomp instrument [no elec gtr or amped-acou, on-stage amps are pa-lenty]:
Usually only the kick; sometimes low sn, & seldom toms [you might run into a prob if you have a smaller subbed-board & fairly good size kit along w all the accomp instrs],
bass, pno, strings/bells/whistles or pedals-steel [low in mix if at all],
vox [for harmonizing],
click/perc from Alesis SR-16 DM [mid-80s/mid-90s], Tama RW, or Roland sequencer, for me only [pre-sequenced to tunes' sequence].

DI/direct box snake [sometimes called "splitters," slang] to go between [tie-in with] the FOH board, sound/seq unit, & my rig.

I keep the bass & kick higher like Vinnie, with the click or "perc track" just audible enough. Pno, mid-level. Sometimes an acou rhythm gtr, low.

In this way you can adjust any & all indy instr levels, & keep your click audible at all times, w just a quick tweek of either hand, if soundcheck levels get out of hand live on stage during performance. This cuts the Murphy's Law quotient [of having to rely on a monitorman/middleman for your personal, in-the-moment mix] down drastically.

Most pro bands/sound-engineers tend to "work together" & make it easier at this, esp if they've been at it or together for a decent amount of time.

Rhythmatist also said it well:

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If all you hear all night is that static click, it can eventually drive you mad.
If you are playing to sequences, simply add some percussion to the sequence; there's your click.
Use as little gear as you can get away with if you really have to go this route. From experience, the more you have to screw with the greater chance that Murphy's Law will bite you in the ass. I fired my electronics three years ago and I've never been happier (I'm only using a Mackie and mics now).

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL...& true...& everything else he [AWA everyone else] said.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 16, 2005 04:27 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

Update.....

I used a Yahamaha clickstation at our gig Friday night......freakin nightmare.

I took it straight in using standard in ear headphones (from my IPOD)...it was such a noisy gig (which is good coz there were loads of people)that I couldn't get a clear reference on the click when counting off. Which meant we were starting slightly out if sync to the click and of cause if you try and bring it back in line straight away there will be a discernable change in tempo....which isn't good for the dancers out there.

Plus I hated the click....too high pitched and annoying!!!!!!!!!

I have a roland TD-8 which I could program some sequenced, groove type 'clicks' ....which might be better.

Thanks for the tips everyone.

Gary