This is Where the Republican Party is Headed

As crazy as this sounds, we are going to see more and more of this stuff. George Bush let the crazies out of the barn, and they are getting more and more comfortable about being honest and open with what they believe:

WWII comments blasted

BY ANDREW METZ
STAFF WRITER

May 12, 2005

Was World War II worth it?

In the inflammatory world view of Pat Buchanan, the short answer is no. The war that stopped the Nazis' global campaign and the mechanistic extermination of European Jewry was actually not worth the effort.

The commentator yesterday offered equally provocative answers to other questions: Why destroy Hitler? And why venerate FDR and Churchill?

On the radio and Internet, Buchanan framed his positions as amplification of remarks made over the weekend by President George W. Bush that the pact ending the war brought on a Stalinist domination that was "one of the greatest wrongs of history."

But Buchanan's comments on the Don Imus radio show and in an essay posted on the Web site of his organization, The American Cause, went much further. He suggested that because Germans voted Hitler in, they did not need to be liberated, and that Britain and France drew Germany into the wider conflict.

He did not mention Jews or the Holocaust - the most outrageous omission for Yaffa Eliach, a Holocaust expert and survivor. "For me it is very important to present the truth, to show the murder," Eliach said. "The idea was to kill Jews."

Abraham Foxman, president of the Anti-Defamation League, called Buchanan's comments "immoral" and "bordering on Holocaust denial. "But, you know, he has been there before," Foxman said. "Pat Buchanan in the past has challenged whether or not there were crematoria."

Veterans were also insulted.

"That is more or less saying they fought for the wrong reasons and the sacrifice was futile," said Veterans of Foreign Wars spokesman Jerry Newberry. "Buchanan apparently hasn't given much thought to what the world would have looked like if Hitler and his henchmen would have succeeded."

Buchanan did not return calls yesterday.

Former Mayor Ed Koch offered this blunt rebuttal: "I believe that no decent human being should ever sit down at the same table with Pat Buchanan and I am shocked that otherwise responsible, respectable citizens share platforms with him on Sunday shows."
Copyright 2005 Newsday Inc.

"Let the crazies out of the barn"?!?!?!?! LOL!

Apparently you didnt watch the coverage of what was going on outside the republican national convention [img]eek.gif[/img]

And before you try to blast me, no I do not agree that WW2 was a waste of time and I'm sure most people dont either.

Probably should have chosen his words a little bit better there.

When the crazies feel this free to express themselves, they will surely drive a wedge of division through their party and lessen their chances for retaining power.

I'm no historian, but in the past few months I've been reading a lot about the Jewish experience in Europe, and I find Buchannan's comments worse than immoral.

And, even though I've lately voted republican, I'll agree that change is needed. Therefore,

<font size="6">Captain Whizbang Sarcazmo and AL for King and Queen. Steaks at 6.</font>

One night recently I was channel flipping and stopped on channel 48. It showed an hour of footage of concentration camp cleanup.

It was more heinous than anything I've ever seen.

If you want, Cap'n, I can bring some books home from the Archives. One is about refugees who ended up here in Cincinnati and another is about the GIs who liberated the camps.

In one instance in the second book, a young man was interred (I don't remember where) for a number of months, but had the proper paperwork to get out of Germany. Back when Jews were still permitted to leave. After coming to America, he quickly became a citizen, joined the Army and was among those who liberated the camp.

Heinous, indeed.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by gae:
I'm no historian, but in the past few months I've been reading a lot about the Jewish experience in Europe, and I find Buchannan's comments worse than immoral.

And, even though I've lately voted republican, I'll agree that change is needed. Therefore,

<font size="6">Captain Whizbang Sarcazmo and AL for King and Queen. Steaks at 6.</font>

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I did get the patio table assembled last night. Unfortunately...on the..very...last...bolt to be tightened...the head broke off...leaving one leg unattached. Yeah, the table's usable, but GODAMMIT, it's a brand new table!

Couldn't believe it.

As I mentioned, NO Lowe's in the Greater Cincinnati area has the set in stock. The web site listed on the info tied by string to the table is useless, and there's no phone number - probably because the shit was made in China and all woodward-furniture.com does is import it and unload it to big box retailers.

How frustrating.

But don't you worry your pretty little head. You will get your steak sometime.

Umm... want to come over and check through <s> the crap in the basement</s> very important stuff we have for the right sized bolt? I bought some of the wrong kind-ed things for my flower press. Maybe those will work for you?

"He suggested that because Germans voted Hitler in, they did not need to be liberated..."

I question if Pat actually said that because he has a good grasp of history. Yes they had an election, but Hitler did not gain the most votes. Nevertheless he was somehow installed in power by the Chancellor, who thought Hitler would be a useful tool he could control.

Interesting to consider that if Republicans had beaten FDR prior to the start of the war, Buchanan may have gotten his wish - it is very unlikely we would have entered that war under an isolationist Republican leader.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by LanDroid:
"He suggested that because Germans voted Hitler in, they did not need to be liberated..."

I question if Pat actually said that because he has a good grasp of history. Yes they had an election, but Hitler did not gain the most votes. Nevertheless he was somehow installed in power by the Chancellor, who thought Hitler would be a useful tool he could control.

Interesting to consider that if Republicans had beaten FDR prior to the start of the war, Buchanan may have gotten his wish - it is very unlikely we would have entered that war under an isolationist Republican leader.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've not read Buchanan's essay posted on his web site. Perhaps that will answer your question.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by gae:
Umm... want to come over and check through <s> the crap in the basement</s> very important stuff we have for the right sized bolt? I bought some of the wrong kind-ed things for my flower press. Maybe those will work for you?

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, stupid me. It's Woodard-furniture.com, not Woodward-furniture.com. My apologies to Woodard.

I contacted them this morning, and they will send me a new bolt. Let's just hope I can get the old bolt out.

Oh...I'll be moving stuff upstairs Sunday, not Saturday. As it turns out, I'll only be home for a few hours on Saturday.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by gae:
Umm... want to come over and check through <s> the crap in the basement</s> very important stuff we have for the right sized bolt? I bought some of the wrong kind-ed things for my flower press. Maybe those will work for you?

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">BTW, thanks for the offer. Yeah, something as trivial as a bolt should not create such stress, but in Cap'n Whizbang's World, I'd walk away from your house with 10 bolts in hand and none would fit they way they are supposed to. And if you haven't noticed, while I consider myself reasonably intelligent, I'm stupidly mechanically disinclined.

You'd think they'd just provide the bolt dimensions on the instructions...but they don't.

<font color="#FFFFAA" size="1">[ May 13, 2005 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Captain Whizbang ]</font>

Quote:

---

Originally posted by gae:
If you want, Cap'n, I can bring some books home from the Archives. One is about refugees who ended up here in Cincinnati and another is about the GIs who liberated the camps.

In one instance in the second book, a young man was interred (I don't remember where) for a number of months, but had the proper paperwork to get out of Germany. Back when Jews were still permitted to leave. After coming to America, he quickly became a citizen, joined the Army and was among those who liberated the camp.

Heinous, indeed.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One thing I'd always believed is that the German people as a whole did not understand what was going on inside the camps. After watching the documentary on WCET, it's no longer possible for me to believe this.

I may be wrong about the number, but there were something like 300 camps across Germany and surrounding countries. They were everywhere. They were run by Germans and German industry. Women would volunteer their time to work in the camps, and leave at the end of the day.

<font color="#FFFFAA" size="1">[ May 13, 2005 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Captain Whizbang ]</font>

Capt. Whizbang's bolt* [img]eek.gif[/img] reminds me of my recent efforts to buy a coupla fasteners to hold down the shower drain. Trip # 1 to hardware store: I was sure they were 8-32 flathead. Wrong. Trip # 2: get next larger size 10-32. Wrong. Trip # 3: turns out they are actually 10-24 thread. Three trips for one pair of fasteners. Fun... [img]mad.gif[/img]

*Yet another phrase I never thought I would write in my lifetime.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by LanDroid:
"He suggested that because Germans voted Hitler in, they did not need to be liberated..."

I question if Pat actually said that because he has a good grasp of history. Yes they had an election, but Hitler did not gain the most votes. Nevertheless he was somehow installed in power by the Chancellor, who thought Hitler would be a useful tool he could control.

Interesting to consider that if Republicans had beaten FDR prior to the start of the war, Buchanan may have gotten his wish - it is very unlikely we would have entered that war under an isolationist Republican leader.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not necessarily. You have to remember that we fought a two front war in WWII. Once we declared war on Japan for their "surprise" attack on Pearl Harbor, on December 11th, 1941 Germany and Italy declared war on the United States. Had we not gone to Europe and fought after that declaration, we would have been fighting the German war machine in England, Greenland, Iceland, Canada and the U.S.

Also keep in mind that FDR felt that we needed to get involved in the European conflict long before December 1941. That is why his administration goaded Japan into attacking us. They had a very precise plan to agitate and aggravate the Japanese and it was put into motion well before the 1940 election. IF FRD had been defeated, the incoming president would have been made aware of what was going on and how important it was for us to be involved in this conflict since England was getting their ass handed to them and France was busy waving white flags. Our involvement in WWII was inevitible.

<font color="#FFFFAA" size="1">[ May 14, 2005 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Gunslinger ]</font>

"Also keep in mind that FDR felt that we needed to get involved in the European conflict long before December 1941. That is why his administration goaded Japan into attacking us. They had a very precise plan to agitate and aggravate the Japanese and it was put into motion well before the 1940 election."

Yes, but my point is if FDR had lost his FIRST Presidential election, the Republican President Herbert Hoover would not have agitated Japan. The U.S. population was overwhemingly isolationist and both candidates claimed to be isolationist in that election, but from our vantage point, it's fair to say Hoover was much more so. Hence no Pacific agitation, no Pearl Harbor, Hitler owns Europe, etc. [img]eek.gif[/img] Come to think of it, this is probably true of his second election as well, which began 1/20/1937 and ended 1/20/41, just a few weeks after Pearl Harbor.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by LanDroid:
Capt. Whizbang's bolt* [img]eek.gif[/img] reminds me of my recent efforts to buy a coupla fasteners to hold down the shower drain. Trip # 1 to hardware store: I was sure they were 8-32 flathead. Wrong. Trip # 2: get next larger size 10-32. Wrong. Trip # 3: turns out they are actually 10-24 thread. Three trips for one pair of fasteners. Fun... [img]mad.gif[/img]

*Yet another phrase I never thought I would write in my lifetime.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've now made 3 trips to the hardware store for a bolt to hold together my front railing. A trip to Hader Saturday afternoon yielded the right bolt.

Now if I could only figure out what I did with it. [pulls out hair]

Man is this a complex topic, and considering most yahoos in the media today have a level of complexity just below Judy Blume, there's no way to....well, here's a few extra cents...

1) Darts to Buchanan. As LanD points out, the legitimacy of Hitler's election is highly suspect. Personally, from my reading, I don't think the majority of the German people bought into all that cultish Aryan supremacy crap...I think then, like now, people were influenced by coin and power. And Germany had gone from a pummelled, plundered has-been in the 1920s into the most powerful (or one of) nation in the world by the mid-late 1930s. And of course they knew what was going on.

2) Darts to the ADL. Heaven forbid one takes a position opposite to their party-line, you're automatically an anti-semitic bigot. I've long had issues with how the holocaust is presented. First, I have read where up to 10 million died in those camps (don't know as it's confirmed). Whatever the number is, there were also an awful lot of non-Jews who were slaughtered as well. Where's their museum? Second, the Soviets lost between 20 and 30 million between 1941-1945. Granted, they weren't gassed, but what's the difference? Isn't the point that innocent people died needlessly? And finally, the U.S. and Germany went to war in 1941, it is generally accepted that the Final Solution did not start until 1942. In other words, there were many reasons why WWII was fought.

And regarding GS post, FDR certainly wanted us in the war, no question of that. I never bought into the conspiracy theorists who say he knew of Pearl Harbor and did nothing about it. I think the evidence is clear that an attack was imminent, either on Hawaii or (more likely) one of the allied interests in the western pacific. But do I think he knew on December 6 that an attack was coming the next day? Negative.

And, for what it's worth, Stalin and Mao both killed far more people than did Hitler. I'm not exonerating the Nazis, but it seems to me that Stalin and Mao have gotten a free pass over the years. Logically, they would both have to go down as the two worst human beings to ever live, but somehow it never works out that way.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Lew:
I've long had issues with how the holocaust is presented. First, I have read where up to 10 million died in those camps (don't know as it's confirmed). Whatever the number is, there were also an awful lot of non-Jews who were slaughtered as well. Where's their museum?

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I dunno, it seems like United States Holocaust Memorial Museum would fit the bill:

MISSION STATEMENT



The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America?s national institution for the documentation, study, and interpretation of Holocaust history, and serves as this country?s memorial to the millions of people murdered during the Holocaust.

The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims ? six million were murdered; Gypsies, the handicapped and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including homosexuals, Jehovah?s Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war and political dissidents, also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny.

The Museum?s primary mission is to advance and disseminate knowledge about this unprecedented tragedy; to preserve the memory of those who suffered; and to encourage its visitors to reflect upon the moral and spiritual questions raised by the events of the Holocaust as well as their own responsibilities as citizens of a democracy.

Chartered by a unanimous Act of Congress in 1980 and located adjacent to the National Mall in Washington, DC, the Museum strives to broaden public understanding of the history of the Holocaust through multifaceted programs: exhibitions; research and publication; collecting and preserving material evidence, art and artifacts relating to the Holocaust; annual Holocaust commemorations known as Days of Remembrance; distribution of educational materials and teacher resources; and a variety of public programming designed to enhance understanding of the Holocaust and related issues, including those of contemporary significance.

Jumper and I visited the concentration camp at Dachau when we were in Munich. It was very eiry to say the least. They have a wonderful exhibit inside one of the buildings that gives a timeline of Hitlers rise to power and demise. Part of the building also serves as a memorial.

I will try to get Jumper to post on the subject b/c he took more interest that I did.

If you make it to Germany, I highly recommend the trip to Dachau. And for those of you in search of odd sized bolts, you will be pleased to know there is a hardward store across the street! No kiddin! [img]smile.gif[/img]

D2- I recall seeing your pics, if I make it over to Europe someday I would like to go to either Auschwitz or Dachau.

Reason- that's all fine and good, and hopefully that's how they feel, but the number I hear time and time again is 6 million. And I'm not belittling it; I'm just saying, I think the total death toll for WWII is close to 80 million.