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First of all get Big Band CDs
You could get the 2 burning for Buddy Cds, but beware of some players that don't really know how to drive a big band. Check out STeve Smith, Dave Weckl, Steve Arnold.
Get the Buddy Rich Memorial Scholarship Concert Tape
Listen to buddy rich records, dvds! Benny Goodman etc
Gregg Bissonette's dvd also has some useful stuff.
Learn to read charts well
WElcome by the way [img]smile.gif[/img]
Sorry for what I'm about to say, because folks in here are hard headed, but I'm being honest, especially because I've seriously studied the art of big band.
The first thing you DON'T want, is the Buddy Rich Scholarship DVD. That's not real big band drumming. That's a bunch of fusion and session guys sort of playing big band. And even the jazz guys on that over play because they're trying cut each other. i.e Smitty.
And Gregg Bissonette is a great knowledgable drummer, but he's not great big band drummer in my opinion. He can cut it, but he's no Sonny Payne.
This is my 2 cents:
Check out Sinatra Live at The Sands.
Anything with Sonny Payne on it, or any Count Basie.
Any Woody Herman big band recordings. ANY Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Big Band. Any big band with Louis Bellson or Grady Tate.
Anything with Chick Webb. Or any newer big band recordings with Ed Shaunessy, Jeff Hamilton or Peter Erskine.
Also, if you have any questions, I highly suggest Steve Hass' board because he plays a ton big band with The Manhattan Transfer and is knowledgable in the style and he's great with answering in a timely fashion. Does Erskine have a forum?
Why people think big band music requires a lot of reading is beyond me. Most of the great Big Bang drummers couldn't read music. Including Buddy Rich.
Buddy's big band was his, so he had plenty of time to rehearse and probably was involved in the composing of it so he already knew it pretty well not requiring him to sight read.
This guy is joining a big band and he might have to read charts...if you sub in a big band your going to have to read your ass off....at BRMSC louis bellson was sightreading
I have to read charts in my school band, maybe not when im actually playing...but to learn the stuff...so you do have to be able to sight read from my experience
then again, what do i know..
Ed Shaughnessy wrote a big called Big Band Drummers' Reading Guide, which suggests that you do in fact have to be able to read charts in big band drumming situations... i think most big band type situations there will be at least a chart with the hits and accents or section figures, otherwise how would you know how make all the hits and stuff, quickly. Without having to listen to the band play first and memorise them?
<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ May 29, 2005 05:14 AM: Message edited by: S.P ]</font></font>
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2005 05:18 AM: Message edited by: S.P ]</font>
The Buddy Rich DVD is amazing if you want to see some of the most happenin big band music throughout the era. Covers buddy thru his life and the music he played.
"Dirty Rotten Kid" still blows me away.
But specifically.... If you are playing with some guys that "do" know how to play big band swing, then I suggest you start studying your ass off!!
Yeah.... some guys learned how to play without taking a lesson, but there are only a hand full of those dudes on the planet. Most of us mere mortals must learn to read. And if you want to get really good at comping in a big band jazz context, learn to read MUSIC MUSIC, and not just drum music. Because that's where all the action is.
Do you know how to play within a Jazz context??
Well, if not........ learn the ride pattern and the triplet feel. Break it down and learn how to interject snare drum rudiments/independance while keeping the triplet ride pattern going, all the while keeping a 2&4 closing on the HH. You'll never get this stuff down before monday (if you're not studied in jazz playing), but anytime is a great time to learn to play Jazz. It'll make you a better drummer all around.
Are there any horn players in the band?? How big is the band?? How many pieces??
Charts.... my friend..... charts!! Gotta learn the setups and the long/short notes. When to accent long and when to accent short. Greg Bissonette gives a good explanation of Big Band swing drumming in his new video, and his old one too. Guess thats why he recorded with the "A" band at North Texas State (well known for their Jazz studies program).
ps..... Cathy Richs husband Steve Arnold plays a great tune with Cathy in the Buddy Rich memorial concert (tape #2 with Vinne, Weckl, and gadd).
Randy Walman's CD's with Vinnie are an absolute blast if you like trio jazz, as well is the DVD of Vinnie playing with Chick in Japan at the Blue Note. And you can definetly take those concepts onto playing in a big band. It's all relative in the grande scheme of things.
S.P. is correct when he says some players can't drive a big band the way they should be, so heed those words. That is absolutely crucial. The way you play your ride is key. It's no more 1234 rock and roll, ping the ride. Your jazz ride technique is key to you driving the band and when you tighten everything together within your arsenol (ride pattern, left hand comping, long/short note accents, HH groove, and your setups) then you'll hear the difference between someone that "drives" the band, and someone just mustering out a "ding.... ding, da, ding...... ding, da, ding.....etc"
Paraflam had some great listening suggestions also.
yeah theres plenty of great advice here! Hope it helped
I fully agree with what Paraflam said. Perhaps not so much the comments about Buddy, but checking out Weckl or Biso would not be your best option.
Hi there and welcome to the board.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No No No Nooooo!! Forget any of the Buddy Rich Memorial tapes, apart from Gadd and Bisonettes' In A Mellow Tone, the rest are basically getting their chops out, have little regard for the phrasing or using it as a vehicle to solo and catch the hits, the majority of the players (Vinnie & Weckl included) are overplaying MASSIVELY! This is NOT a lesson in big band drumming.Quote:
Check out STeve Smith, Dave Weckl, Steve Arnold.
Get the Buddy Rich Memorial Scholarship Concert Tape
As someone who has been playing, touring and recording in big bands since I was 12 or so, I would agree with Paraflam. Get any Count Basie recording , whether it's with Sonny Payne, Harold Jones or Butch MIles. Thad Jones/Mel Lewis recordings, Stan Kenton, Buddy (of course!) Rob McConnell, Duke Ellington....
The good big band drummer will have MASSIVE ears and be able to sight read any chart that is placed in front of them. Forget all flashy left hand and right foot comping that you may be practicing and concentrate on a good, solid, driving quarter note pulse on the ride. This is everything. A rim click on the 4th beat of the bar will help to center the time even more.
When you first get the chart, scan it's form, checking the DS and coda and where the tricky repeats are - also, how it ends. You will then not be surprised by it's geography when you're reading. Many drummers will nail all the phrasing that is written, because they are good readers, this is a mistake! Use your ears!! Let me say that again..... use your ears!! As I said, sometimes a rim click on beat 4 or 2&4 will make the band feel more comfortable than catching and filling through everything (as in most of the performances on the BRM tapes). Catching everything can clutter the music and consequently make it 'sit' better. You are NOT oblidged to play every note that's written.
Why did Gadd's two pieces swing harder than any other piece played? Because he was concentrating on the time (frequently just playing quarter notes on the ride) as opposed to all the phrasing and Elvin/Tonyesque comping). Notice his shuffling too, this drove the band like an express train!
Our job as big band drummers is to make the rest of the band feel comfortable and to give them a firm, solid foundation in which to play their parts. Don't forget that each section has 4 players that are trying to play phrasing that is often in unison and us filling and overplaying will distract them and detract from the time feel and consequently thre band won't sit. (as in Vinnie's performances on the BRM tapes. To me it sounded like the rest of the players were shitting themselves and counting like mad!) Check out the difference in the way the horns phrased behind Vinnie and Gadd. Which do you think swung the hardest?
As for setting up phrasing, keep it simple!! We don't have to play as many notes as possible up to the phrase to show how we understand how to fill - keep it simple and be tasteful and musical. Your fellow musicians will appreciate it as it will make them feel more secure and show that they can trust you as a player to make their job more easier.
If there is a load of phrasing written that is too complicated for you, then DON'T PLAY IT!! Swing through it and 'chop wood' on the snare, this will settle the band much more than trying to muddle your way through stuff you can't play. This does not mean you are a bad drummer, it means you're a sensitive and musical player that cares about the overall feel of the piece as opposed to catching everything and possibly making a hash of it.
REMEMBER - phrasing that's written above the stave is there as information for us - it shows us what the horns are playing and we are NOT oblidged to play it. We must however, play phrasing that is written inside the stave.
Good luck, have fun and enjoy it. It's the best fun and driving 15 other musicians and making them feel comfortable is the biggest buzz. Let us know how you get on.
[img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/music.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
Oh, and take a soft pencil. Seriously. In fact, take two. It's the second most useful tool after your sticks. When your director changes the number of solos (repeats) on you (because he will), you can write it in. You can mark any cuts. You can emphasise the DS/DC and "to coda" marking or time changes if they're hard to see. You can mark any of the form you do want to catch (see Dazz's remarks above) above the staff if it's not already there.
Make sure it's soft, and any marks you make should be modest and easily removable. Band charts are shockingly expensive, and you won't be thanked for defacing them. Especially if they're on rental.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2005 08:41 AM: Message edited by: moosetication ]</font>
Amen, Daz.... That's it right there, guys. Free lesson.
Basie is clearly the way to go. That's how I was first introduced the whole thing...!
Big Band drumming can be really great. For me it was always an amazing learning process to go through a complete chart, giving special attention to every little kick. I agree with the pencil advice too! Mark up that chart until you can only see the notes you really need. Enjoy!
Basie, Woody, Duke
Dazz, that's one of the best posts I've ever read on here. Well said.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed. That one's a keeper... [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by Greaseleg:
Dazz, that's one of the best posts I've ever read on here. Well said.
Wow! Thank you all for your suggestions.
I am new to playing jazz music, so playing with a big band is a complete new experience to me, most of the gigs I play rock, progressive rock, blues and some brazilian music.
I still have problems reading charts but I think by the end of the end of June I'll be a lot better reading charts. I learned the accents of the songs of this big band by listening and playing along with headphones. I am not really using the charts to guide me through the songs right now.
I have the Buddy Rich Memorial Scolarship tapes 1-4. There is one song that we will play, not now, that Vinnie played, I think it's called One o'clock. I will listen to the records/CD's you all recommended.
I've been visiting Steve's forum for some time, and I think this is a great forum, thanks again!
Sorry, honestly, next time i will not start dishing out advice on stuff i dont know, thanks for teaching me that stuff. I always thought gregg was great with the band that night, if you look at the bands faces behind them when gregg finished playing in a mellow tone you can tell they are super happy.
Thanks for teaching me too guys!
btw Rafael! i used to live in Brasil man! from when i was 2 till i was 8! I lived in Campinas (quite near Sao Paulo) and also in Rio Grande Do Sure in Novo Hamburgo near Porto Alegre and Sao Leopoldo!
great to have you here, its an amazing board
Hi, I am new to the forum.
I would like to hear some tips on playing with a Big Band. I've joined one and we will start rehearsing next monday but I have no experience at all playing with a big band.
The songs are mostly jazz and some are latin-jazz.
Thanks for your help!
Dazzler wrote: "and be be able to read any chart that is placed in front of them"
Sorry guys. This is a great tool to have for any musician, but the fact is, in the era of big band most drummers didn't read. So to say any great big band must be able to read is false. Although reading is a great tool and I would never tell anyone don't bother with your reading skills. They're important. But not a must. Unless of course you're going in cold without ever playing the material.
Dazzler's advice was spot on and is exactly what I said, but more detailed. Chop wood? I haven't heard that expression in years! Yeah man! OLD SKOOL my man from the UK! Good one.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2005 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Paraflam ]</font>
Hmm... that may have been the case during the Big Band era but in today's modern charts reading is a must. I have played charts in my university's Big Band where reading was required in order to develop the various feels; no way to hear these charts simply by ear.
One piece of advice I have is to memorize as much of the charts as possible. I've found that once a chart is memorized and your face isn't buried in the chart your playing will open up and your connection to the band becomes much more solid. The band will love you for this.
Chopping wood? I've never heard that term either. HAHA If I were to guess though that would be a heavy back beat during a shout section.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This isn't the era of big band.Quote:
Originally posted by Paraflam:
...the fact is, in the era of big band most drummers didn't read.
I have less than a hundredth of the experience of Dazzling Darren, but I've never worked without a chart - even in junior ensembles.
oops, double post.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2005 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Zak Morton ]</font>
Yep, that's it right there boys & girls, great advice [AWA free lesson!]. [img]wink.gif[/img] Fantastic.
I'd never heard the expression 'chop wood' either, Zak, LOL, but by the implication & connotation of it's meaning in that statement AWA the style/genre, I would agree...is that what you meant by that DazzO?... [img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2005 03:04 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>
Zak,
Sorry mt man, not only did you just contradict yourself, your first post simply isn't true.
You need to read a chart to develop a feel? What? Are out of your mind? First you said you can't play big band without reading, then you said, memorize it so your head's not buried in the chart.
These comments alone show inexperience.
A good reader reads 16 bars at a time therefor NEVER burying his head in the chart. It's like reading sentence, and each bar of music is a word.
Reading is not music. It's like saying you need to read english in order to speak it. This is so wrong, it's making my hairs stand up.
Reading is a tool to help you get through a song. That's it. Most great musicians barely read, even when they are great readers. It's all about listening and musical memory. It doesn't matter if this isn't the big band era. Reading is not a must.
Chart reading is not a required tool, nor is it playing music. Teachers like Steve Houghton have completely ruined the approach by saying "you have to read" to play big band, in order to sell their books and videos. I have students coming in saying I can play big band sure, just because they can play a chart perfectly. Meanwhile they can't swing or play in the style. Why should big band be associateed with reading more so than any other style? Reading is just a means of helping someone who's never playesd the music, get through the form. That's it.
The ONLY time reading helps is when you're playing something for the first time without having heard it before, which is why in order to play sessions, you need to read. Period. Too many drummers use reading as a crutch when in the real world top players memorize music after one run through.
P.S You said there's no way to hear the charts by ear?
ummmm....what about the person that composed them? Didn't they hear it? Isn't that how things are composed?
ummmm...what about Dennis Chambers on the BRMS dvd? He's not a big band player, but he nailed the tunes, he doesn't read a note. He played with John McLaughlin! Practically the hardest music around.
Paraface is right.
You don't NEED to read at all.
I have friends on Broadway shows that memorize everything from CD.
Reading has nothing to do with the style of Big Band.
It helps no matter what you play. Grady Tate doesn't read, neither did Gene Krupa or Buddy. You can't tell me on all those jazz recordings Buddy did for other leaders, that they rehearsed over and over. No way! He had great ears and musical memory as Paraflam said.
Come on guys! This is basic musical knowledge.
I have never played Big band stuff "professionaly". By that I mean, in front of large audiences or perhaps with a steady band. However I would highlight this:
For the past 6 years I've taken lessons from the same drum instructor and we've covered all major styles of music under the sun. During no style did we spend more time on charts than with big band stuff. I wouldn't go so far as to say that you MUST be able to read to be a good big band player, but the style of music simply lends itself to reading very well - perhaps more than others. Especially learning how to pick out the oh-so-important kicks typical of big band music comes to mind. What I am trying to say is this: When I think back to first learning big band tunes, I remember the rewarding feeling of successfully reading a chart. I think back and say : "Oh yeah big band, that's where you have to own your charts and drive the band at 200mph!"
In other styles of music such as rock or funk you can get away with playing what "feels" right - often a groove with 2 and 4 on the snare will be fine. However, if you sit in with a big band and are asked to play a tune, I would almost go so far as to say that you become the "conductor". Sure, after a while you can get used to it and play by ear, gradually internalising those kicks. But why not take this opportunity to learn a new musical style IN ADDITION to brushing up those reading skills. I guess it just depends how highly you value formal musical education. I have always strongly believed in that.
Let me drop my two cents in.
Para is definately right.
I've been doing two big bands at university for the last two semesters. When I first got into to these, I was on that BRMSC wavelength, but after one rehearsal, and a bit of yelling from my director, I figured out that's not the way to go.
First of all feel is most important. If you just lock into the q note with the bassist and not even play or read one figure, they'll like it better than if you destroy the feel by trying to read everything. The hint here is that those notes are just suggestions. My director would always stop the band and say, "you know it was feeling great for a moment, but then it started getting weird... and you know what when I looked at you(me) your head was in the music." After that he wouldn't give a chart until the second time we played the tune. Let me tell you that after youget the hang of just playing by ear, you'll be suprised by how much it helps other things.
If you look at Para's list of drummers, he hit it on the head. When I first got into Jazz all I had were a few Basie albums. This is really the style to learn. I think they were called a sweet band or a hot band (I should have stayed awake in jazz history). Nonetheless, this style is the absolute opposite of most stuff BRMSC. Really simple, straight a head, and the only time it gets active is when it says fill. Funny enough this is the style where four on the floor actually sounds alright. I know the times it felt best for was like on "Shinny Stalkings" totally closed hi-hat just playing quarter notes, and a piano(dynamic) four on the floor.
For reading, you definately want to be able to read. Once you start getting into harder compositions and arrangements, it's a must, because the road map can get quite involved on these tunes, but don't worry about the figures as much as the form. I would suggest getting your hands on the Ted Reed book and working throught all the different ways of reading the excersies. Then there's a few Bellson books. These I find help the best because it's just syncopation excersices, nothing realized for you. Oh yeah, there is another book that's good if you have a teacher: Syncopated Big band Figure for the Modern Drummer, it's like a duet of Ted Reed solos.
In big band feel is king. Two nights ago I went to a theater production, they didn't have a big band, but the orchestration was trying to emulate it quite a bit. The drummer was pretty good, playing some pretty technical stuff that was, at time, making me wonder if I could or would pull some of that shit off. The only problem is when he went for it, the feel went sour. In my opinion, I would rather have a cat that couldn't play a paradiddle, but had great feel. This was a production still playing from their black history month line-up. It had a barber shop like feel to it, and the dudes acting could snap better a feel than the drummer. Like I said he was good, but if he dropped some of the notes, the performance would have been much more musical.
So ahh, play good quarter notes.
What I don't understand is how everyone is saying, yes PARA is right. Yet you're all still saying reading is a must.
Reading is a must for those people with poor musical memory and/or playing something for the very first time. Otherwise it's not a must.
It was said earlier. Buddy Rich was a very successful sideman in the beginning of his career without reading. Dennis Chambers doesn't read a note and plays some of the hardest music to date with J.M.
Reading is a useful skill, but not a must to play any style. It's actually more musically beneficial to not read, in order to develop you ears and memorization skills.
Steve Hass talked about this in his forum not too long ago.
I'll be the first to admit the fact that I'm a good reader, has slowed down my learning process. Relying on music can become a problem. So don't tie in Big Band drumming with reading. It's the wrong approach. Big Band is about swing.
Funny?? Last I heard, Zak "IS" a working pro. Music is how he makes his living. I think his resume speaks for itself.
Paraflam.... said
"The first thing you DON'T want, is the Buddy Rich Scholarship DVD. That's not real big band drumming. That's a bunch of fusion and session guys sort of playing big band. And even the jazz guys on that over play"
And that Paraflam is why I distinctly pointed out Steve Arnold. He "IS" playing more of what I would consider to be straight ahead swing. He's allowing the band to breathe and allowing Cathy's vocals to come out in the tune. And as far as not listening to the others.... that is rubbish. The grooves... the licks, the mad playing, the theory behind this stuff "CAN" be translated into any big band situation. I'm sure if you guys listen to enough Buddy, you'd realize that those licks were also played by him at one time or another. Just because you listen to fuziod guys and copy their comping or licks, doesn't mean you couldn't use it in application to a big band scenario.
Paraphrasing Steve Jordan, I'm from the school of "going for it". The more you attempt, the more mistakes you make, the easier it will eventually get for you to rip out those difficult chops or phrasings. And it will certianly make it easier to keep time on the ride and develop your "driving" skills.
I would really like to know what your credits are Paraflam and Flarob?? I would assume you guys have recorded with some big bands that others could hear your playing on??
Flarob states.....
"reading has nothing to do with the style of Big Band"
ugghhhh god!!! Flarob. Once you posted on another Jazz thread that you must learn the "language" of "Jazz". Read Rapael"s post. He's admidittly "NOT" a "JAZZ" player. And how else would you teach him the basics of Jazz playing, or especially "Big Band"?? Fundamentally, there is sooooo much to learn.
Paraflam states...
"P.S You said there's no way to hear the charts by ear?"
Paraflam... anybody who does this stuff for a living usually doesn't get a rehersal. And that is what Zak was talking about. If you show up on a gig "cold" and without knowledge of the bands repetoire (i.e. having the chance to internalize the tunes/form), do you think your "ears" are going to get you thru the night?? Maybe so, but you'd have to be one mofo and do nothing but Big Band gigs. But the rest of the "PROFESSIONAL MUSIC COMMUNITY" usually uses charts on the gig, because most "pros" usually play many different styles of gigs, even if it where just to glance and reference regarding changes, hits, etc.
Dazz absolutely nailed it. He speaks "Jazz"!! [img]wink.gif[/img]
This is the gospel when it comes to playing in a professional situation. Sounds like Dazz DOES gig alot in PROFESSIONAL situations. Because he's telling it EXACTLY how it is!!
Everything that Dazz pointed out, EVERYTHING can be sought out on Greg Bissonettes new DVD. Everything from "Chopping wood", to "not "overplaying" (i.e. Vinnie, Weckl on the BRM video), to setups, long and short notes, to "driving the band", etc.
Ohhh!! And before I forget. Here's another whopper from Paraflam...
"And Gregg Bissonette is a great knowledgable drummer, but he's not [a] great big band drummer in my opinion. He can cut it, but he's no Sonny Payne."
Hmmm?? So Flarob?? Do most of the working big band drummers need to be at the level of Sonny Payne to play a Big Band gig??
Like I said before, (flarob and paraflam) when you start getting the gigs like greg has in the past (i.e. Maynard Ferguson Big band), let us know. Ok?? We'd love to hear your Big Band playing.
ps..... rafael, Welcome to the board.
Great post Dazz!! [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
Well John, I agree with what you mentioned, but lets not point fingers and say: "Fine, you guys go play big band and do a better job." I believe you can critisize players above your level, but you better be on SPOT ON with what you say and back things up. In this aspect I must admit that Flarob and Para fall short. John and Dazz are both fantastic drummers - not only have we had the pleasure of hearing them play in the past, but it shows in the posts. Let me bring up a little story from a good friend of mine:
He is a graduate from the LA Music Academy and tells me this: While he was a student there, he would have weekly big band classes and the format would look like this: They have a big band come in and you get the chart for the tune. You sit down and hear the instructor go "1, 2, 1,2,3,4"! No warning. That's it. The tune kicks in at full swing and you better fit in all the important. Not being able to read means death in this situation. I believe that any professional drummer with experience in this style of music will tell you that being able to read those charts is crucial.
I've enjoyed this thread.
For another 10 cents worth, (being originally a huge big band freak), there two vinyl albums I certainly haven't been able to find on CD ever, sadly. Could be a task for anyone who fancies a task!
There are two albums that feature some of the greatest big band drumming I ever heard in my life. One is Woody herman - "My Kind Of Broadway" (mid 60's) featuring an absolutely phenominal drummer named Ronnie Zito. Absolutely nailed everything on that entire record. Made an already phenominal band sound even greater than it was already.
The other is an album called "Here's Lena Horne" by that great, great singer. I think the band maybe English, not sure. Anyway, the personnel is not listed. No idea who this equally phenominal drummer is that record, but it's absolutely fantastic. Every phrase he sets up behind Lena. Oh my God!
I'll mention the other thread I sarted on here concerning the amazing John Von Ohlen too, with Kenton.
Those first two records, if you can find them anywhere don't hesitate to purchase them!!
Sincerely,
GH
Well, again the HOD'rs think they know it all. It's ok. Of course if you jump into a situation you have to read. What kind of intellect level are we dealing with here. It's just common sense. It can be Big Band, or acid jazz, if you don't know the tune, you have to read it.
Duh....Para and I are saying, that reading is a tool, and something that is misrepresented. Students automatically connect big band drumming with charts, and this is wrong.
SDK went to HASS' board and asked a similar question. He replied fairly fast:
http://www.stevehass.net/discus/mess...tml?1117402979
or here:
<<<posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 5:42 pm:
Hey SDK, good to see you here again!
I'm assuming your fingers are slipping around on the keys
and you mean BIG BAND music right? Well then.
The direct simple answer to your question is NO.
No you don't have to read. You don't have to read to play anything.
In fact, reading is sometimes used as a crutch for beginner students. Developing your ears is the most important factor in music. Reading is helpful to me if I haven't played something in a long while, or if I'm going in completely cold. In the real world there are rehearsals, unless it's a jingle spot. In jingles 99% of the music is so simple you don't need to read. Check out the Basie like tunes I did for the history channel. They didn't even have charts in that session. I was on the phone with my friend and amazing musician Ralph Humphrey just a few days ago, and he actually told me not to move to LA after I said I was doing about 4/5 sessions a month in NYC. He said LA was completely dry. And that's even more than the big guns are doing over there. Can you believe it? In NYC I still do sessions where there's a full orchestra and big band. I don't mean to get side tracked. So........
If I were teaching a beginner about big band drumming, I would have them play along to CD's, before any reading was involved. There are many different approaches, however the drummers that really play the style well don't concentrate on reading. It's more of a groove thing. It's not hard to remember 24 bars worth of collective ensemble figures. If it is, you have something else to work on. Counting bars and worrying about an upcoming shout chorus is not the way to go. It's more important to get inside the music.
Now, I'm not saying don't work on your reading. Reading can and will make your life easier in every style. Last minute gigs, subbing etc. It's surely not a must. I studied big band drumming back in high school with an amazing drummer who played in WHermans band, Dave Ratijcek. The first thing Dave did, was close the book. And asked me to sing the tune. He said playing time and hitting some figures isn't playing music. He said play the tune. From then on, I got the picture.
I hope this helped. Again, with any style I suggest the "from the ground up" approach. Checking out drummers who excel in the style, not the superstar drummers of today on the Buddy Rich Memorial Concert. If you go into any jazz big band situation playing like that, you'll get fired after the first chorus. Trust me. Even the seasoned session guys on that tape wouldn't approach it that way had it been a regular big band session date. That was what I call a chops blowout. People payed to see blood! haha!!
Mel Lewis, Jake Hanna, Butch Miles, Sonny Paine, Sam Woodyard, etc.. Those cats. Once you've digested them fully, then you'll find yourself putting your own spin on things. I did a live dvd of The Manhattan Transfers Christmas show, with all these hip arrangements of Christmas music. In the middle of Happy Holidays I played double bass. Ala Sam Woodyard or Louis. HAHA! It just came out. So anything can happen. But....It felt good.
Good luck with it, I hope my advice helped. >>>
Sounds a lot like what we're saying. Hmmmm.....
oh BTW I just went here:
http://www.stevehass.net/listen-film_tv.html
Go to Basie vibe, it swings like HELL!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The first few sentences are offensive and you know it. This is an exchange of opinions and the matter in question is certainly more than just common sense. What level of intellect are we dealing with here? Well, lets just say I have yet to find a board that is superior to HOD. While I can follow what Hass is saying (I should add that I have nothing but respect for him and his drumming), that is simply his opinion. Reading is a tool used for beginners? I think not Mr. Hass.Quote:
Originally posted by Flarobstix:
Well, again the HOD'rs think they know it all. It's ok . . . What kind of intellect level are we dealing with here. It's just common sense. It can be Big Band, or acid jazz, if you don't know the tune, you have to read it.
Duh....Para and I are saying, that reading is a tool, and something that is misrepresented. Students automatically connect big band drumming with charts, and this is wrong.
There's no question that "feel" is a big part of the whole scheme of playing any style, not just Jazz of other variations of it. Some guys have it, some don't. It's partially genetic to a certain degree and partially "learned". That's why there are the greats, and there's the working dudes that play T40 southern rock gigs (not to say that some of those guys aren't mofo's either in thier own respect) [img]wink.gif[/img]
But I think we're getting lost in this discussion because it started out with Rafaels asking of how to attempt playing in a big band situation. Thus the reason I asked at what level he was saturated at with this style of music. Sounds like since he's already playing other styles of music, he should have a really good jump start on things. And I totally agree with the fact that musicality and having HUGE ears is a big part of things. That goes without saying to any pro or any good critic of music.
DeepFried...
I can totally relate to your words. Sometimes simplicity is what the tune calls for, other times a tune may have tons of sections to blow on. Sometimes it's more so who you are (i.e. Vinnie on the BRM vid or Buddy Rich playing in someone elses band) that affords them to play more as a "featured" artist rather than "the guy that usually plays this or that gig". So the latter are usually given more independant/soloistic freedom in what they play. Thats the cool thing about music in general. Add a vocalist to that whole scenario and it changes the dynamic vastly. Somtimes too... you get a director that is just a nazi and wants to play the tune "his way". Thats cool too. Many big band leaders have taken rock and various other styles of music/tunes and arranged them into Big Band charts. Who's to say what to play and when to play it. But I completely understand the "less is more" concept. And in a "professional situation", I think you'll get along better sticking to what Dazz and Deep Fried says. Play for the music rather than your ego.
As far as Flarob, SDK, and Paraflam are concerned. I just have a problem with the way in which they seem to "insult" these other great players when 1/2 the time they don't know the whole jist of who they've played with, what musical experiences they've had, or what they are or aren't recorded as playing (as in particular styles).
Florob writes......
"Students automatically connect big band drumming with charts, and this is wrong".
Flarob.....
I would make a wager with you that with the MAJORITY of big band gigs, you'll find EVERYONE with charts in front of them. I wonder why??
I know... its because they don't need them [img]wink.gif[/img]
I think Hass was saying reading can be a crutch for beginners who learn only to play what is put in front of them vs. using their ears in a situation. (BB or otherwise) He's just trying to emphasize the music side vs. the skill of reading side. (Something like being able to read English very well would not make you a fantastic writer)
Dazz pretty much said it all on this topic I think.
Yeah my apologies on the frustration. But I think it's EXTREMELY obvious that if someone doesn't know a tune and can't learn it, they have to learn. It's common sense. That's NOT what we're talking about.
Also, try reading HASS' reply slowly, he doesn't anywhere, that reading is for beginners. It may be a language issue because we're not all from the UK or the US. Nevertheless he didn't say that. Derek nailed it, so did Dazzler. The only thing I disagree with was the "reading is a must" part. That's simply not true. Not only do we have proof via Buddy Rich, Dennis Chambers etc..But we also have another session pro saying it. The original poster of this thread never said he's sitting in or subbing, did he? I thought he said he was joining a big band.
You know, we're all in this together. And I'm sorry if I come off too strong, but there's more often than not, too much false information given via advice, in this forum. And that's how this started.
Telling a young drummer who wants to learn BB to listen to a drum clinic with a big band behind it is not right. It's just not. He'll never survive. So occasionally I'll argue until my point gets through. Even with tons of validation and proof, some of you still say you can't play BB without reading. That's really silly. And it's all because it's engraved into your brains by these clinicians who aren't even considered to be BB drummers, so they can sell their books and clinics. You don't have to read music to play music period. It helps, that's all. For some wierd reason you think that BB's don't rehearse and you're always sitting in. Why just because at LAMA they do it that way? That rarely happens, unless you're a session ace. Most BB's rehearse, and they rehearse alot. Most of them give you a CD of the arrangements.
that's all. :-)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I agree to some extent, Flarobstix as reading music at the end of the day, is simply an aid to memory. Because if someomeone wants us to play and understand their music for the very first time without uttering a word, then placing a well written chart in front of us will allow the composer to have his ideas realised.Quote:
What I don't understand is how everyone is saying, yes PARA is right. Yet you're all still saying reading is a must.
Reading is a must for those people with poor musical memory and/or playing something for the very first time. Otherwise it's not a must.
It was said earlier. Buddy Rich was a very successful sideman in the beginning of his career without reading. Dennis Chambers doesn't read a note and plays some of the hardest music to date with J.M.
Reading is a useful skill, but not a must to play any style. It's actually more musically beneficial to not read, in order to develop you ears and memorization skills.
It's all about music, but if you want to work, then you have to be able to go into any situation and interpret charts that will enable you to make the best out of the charts. If you have the opportunity to memorise the charts and go in and play them, then that's great.
Being able to read is about going into a situation and being able to play the music for the very first time, without being spoken to.
If you think that reading is unmusical then you're very much mistaken Flarobstix and you're simply trying to justifying your own shortfalls and thus limiting your own musicality, if you want to get into an argument about 'is reading important'?
.....It bloody is if you want to work and also be able to play someobdy's music for the first time. What you are doing is elliminatimng every bit of work that doesn't have the luxury of sending you a CD in advance and also attempting to say that reading is linked to unmusiclaity, if you will. This is not an excuse and the vast majority of players that we respect read to the highest of levels.
I happen to know of friends of mine (here in the UK) that have recorded jazz albums with heavyweight New York Jazzers, based on their ability to read and interpret charts. Not being able to read is NOT an excuse and will show your inadequecy as a musician.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So let me see you go in and play 2 sets of big band music after never having heard or seen the music before. Don't belitlltle the abilty to sight read. it's a must, unless you get the music presented to you weeks in advance Flarobstix . This does not make Dennis a better musician than someone who is schooled enough to interpret charts on the first viewing.Quote:
Dennis Chambers doesn't read a note and plays some of the hardest music to date with J.M.
It is an utterly necessary skill, unless you are Yuri Geller an have an uncanny knack of memorising or second guessing the music without having even heard it before. You are clearly not a working musician as you are shouting down the most basic of drumming skills.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2005 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]</font>
Rafael,
First, I've got just a little big band experience reading real big band charts. So, please take this to heart.
Second, I've read a lot of stuff here that I strongly disagree with. At the risk of making enemies, I'm going to ask you to ignore most of the posts on this thread about the necessity (or not) of reading. Sure, if you are a seasoned big band drummer (which you said you aren't) who doesn't read, you can get by until you've learned the parts well enough to do what a big band drummer is supposed to do. Unfortunately, the seasoned big band drummers who don't read, are mostly dead. When you show up for a professional big band gig today, you will be expected to be able to read the charts, nail the important kicks, and play with great swing feel at the same time. If you don't read, how are you going to know where the important kicks are?
There is a GREAT method book dedicated to chart reading called "Chart Reading Workbook for Drummers" by Bobby Gabriel. Get it!
If you master that book (it'll take a month if you put in 2 hours a day), you'll be a better chart reader than 90% of the drummers out there.
Now, I'm going to repeat what I said before, as a bit of a crash course for what's in the book. Hopefully, a little more clearly and succinctly.
Your first job is to play a driving pulse. Play on top of the beat and play the bass drum on the quarter notes a little bit louder than the feathering you would play in a small combo. Try to blend in with the bass. Don't be afraid to play a heavy backbeat on 2 and 4 ala Ed Shaughnessey (one of the best living big band drummers) if the music calls for it.
The second important role for a big band drummer is to set up and accent the ensemble figures (phrases played by the entire band). You'll recognize the ensemble figures because they will be written in the staves. If it's a proper big band chart (rather than a lead sheet) the ensemble figures that you will be expected to set up and accent will be written into your chart as a rhythmic figure.
Now, here's the crash course. You will find that most of these rhythmic figures will end on the & of 2 or & of 4 with a tied note. Many times there will only be a tied note on the & of 2 or & of 4. A tied note is a long sustained note, and will be a big blow by the band that you should crash on. But, before you crash you should play a little setup to add excitement and anticipation to the big blow. Sometimes the setup will be written, sometimes you have to make one up. The most common and simple setup is a 2 stroke figure on snare that ends on 2 or 4 and then crash on the & of 2 or & of 4 as the case may be: ba-du-bah! Very simple and effective. You can also play a 3 stroke ruff as the setup and then crash. If the tied note is on the beat (ie: on 4), you can flam on 3 as a very effective setup. With more experience, you can play longer more interesting setups ala Mel Lewis.
Section figures can also be played but don't have to be. They will be written on top of the staves. If you want, just play them lightly on snare while keeping time.
Having said all this, I'm presuming that you have basic reading skills. If not, and you have no big band experience, you'll need a lot of rehearsals to be able to play the songs well.
Hope this was helpful. And break a leg. [img]wink.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2005 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>