Printable View
having a pair of 515e's, im wondering what their original application was? ive auditioned them in my 828's , and they took very little adjusting with my eq using my rta..compared to my 515 g's a cpl of frequencies needed toned down quite a bit, 250 hz for sure. very powerful sounding speakers in the 828, with more of a chest thumping bass than the 515 g. again, what were these originally intended for?
The 515 series is primarily a mid-bass thru lower mids horn driver with specs changing over the years to accommodate tubes, then SS, and finally optimized for the small mid-bass horns after the industry switched to a separate 'sub' system to handle the woofer BW.
Anyway, the 'E' was the ceramic motor version of the earlier AlNiCo models optimized for high output impedance amps and why with its fast rising response it 'thumps' so hard in an 828 without EQ.
And I love that HUGE thump ceratin Altec woofers make. Its part of that " Larger Than Life Sound " that makes Altec so coveted.
Altec woofers have that immediacy that is unreal.
I sort of agree GM, but at this time I'm on the fence with neodymium. ITS efficient no doubt, but a bit different sounding, especially thru the mids, and that is the part I dont know if I like yet.
Now, since I have heard and used different brands of neo mag woofers, I would like to hear a GPA neo based 416, 421, or 515 woofer. Theres an interesting idea, if Bill could come up with neo designs of Altec models, offering the sound and performance of high energy magnets, the reduced weight, and of course, a much lower cost than Alnico!
But then again, no other brand of speaker ever sounded quite like Altec, even when we were alnico, or ceramic, it would be interesting to hear a GPA Neodymium Altec woofer.
My .02 cents!
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
This is what Altec experts had to say about the 515.
515
1945-1955 16-20 Ohms 35 watts R515-16G, 75W
R515- 8G, 75W Original 515, has great midrange, lacks low bass.
515B
1955-1978 16 Ohms 75 Watts Same as above Has great low bass, impedance drops below 16 ohms in earlier versions at midrange. Later reconed units lack midrange. Recone with 515C series cones for bass horns will solve this problem. Works great in vented bass with standard cone.
515C
1978-1982 16 Ohms 75 Watts Same as above 16" frame version of 515B. has regular constant impedance voice coil, lacks mids in horn enclosures. Great vented box woofer. Same remedies apply as 515B, last Alnico magnet 515.
515E 1982-1984 16 Ohms 75 Watts Same as above Ferrite magnet version of 515C. Lacks even more mids in horn enclosures. Don't use in larger VOT cabinets (210, 211). Great vented box woofer. Ok for A5, A7.
515G Series
1984----- 8, 16 Ohms 75 Watts Same as above Newest version of 515C. Built exclusively for horn enclosures. Don't use in vented or sealed boxes. Works better than any previous model. Great woofer.
.................................
Indeed! Though with the caveat that the field coil units have the edge over later designs. With new F-C and to some extent, Neo mag designs, we're just now getting back to the performance potential we were at ~60 years ago.
Right, but Convergence, what would a Neodymium magnet 515 be like?
Some one like Bill could do it, maybe it would be good! Lightweight, and efficient, thats all Im saying, a new Altec design!
I'd love to hear the speaker Scotty mentions- just because I would like the Altec mentality to survive.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The 515 and 416 went from ALNICO to Ferrite andQuote:
Right, but Convergence, what would a Neodymium magnet 515 be like?
you still have some sound engineers that are not 100% convinced of the same quality.
I've heard the EON and Vertec . The mids are powerful but different than an Altec speaker.
What would it sound like . The intention would be to make it sound the same with a lighter magnet.
If a new speaker were to be designed for Touring
maybe it would be worth the trouble.
...................................
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The 515 and 416 went from ALNICO to Ferrite andQuote:
Originally posted by CONVERGENCE:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Right, but Convergence, what would a Neodymium magnet 515 be like?
you still have some sound engineers that are not 100% convinced of the same quality.
I've heard the EON and Vertec . The mids are powerful but different than an Altec speaker.
What would it sound like . The intention would be to make it sound the same with a lighter magnet.
If a new speaker were to be designed for Touring
maybe it would be worth the trouble.
...................................</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agree on all counts.
I always found Alnico motor speakers to have a certain sound, be it coloration, distortion, or whatever, but I know I like them.
Ceramic motor woofers have always done well fopr too, cant complain.
AGREE, JBL mids dont sound like Altec, but then they never did nor do they want to. Altec fans will always love Altec. I love both. But for certain apps, Altec is just a NICE sound, period.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I can tell you that I have been using B & C 15NDL76 neo motor woofers powered by Crown I Tech 4000,s and I have had no problems whatsoever.Quote:
Originally posted by Old Guy:
On the subject of Neo- with the heat issues- has anyone considered Peltiers for cooling? Community has a series of speakers that pumped air around the magnet assemblies from outside the box, a seperate sealed system.
I think 10 years ago, heat was definitely a problem with neo, but they have the heatsinking and cooling down pat today, I think, as I havent had thermal issues.
But, I would like to hear what a neo 515, or improved speaker would sound like. I know that my neo woofers definitely seem more lively, than a comparably efficient, high sensitivity woofer with a ceramic motor, and of the same brand! Both 99db1w@1m.
If I had to say exactly what I hear diiferent from Alnico, to Ceramic, to Neo, the Neo isnt as soft sounding as a comparable Alnico model, but, then, other things can contribute to that also. One thing I will always love about Altec woofers, and no one is really making things of this type anymore, other than Bill, is High Compliance Suspensions!
I love bass from a high compliance suspension woofer, it rocks my world!
There is an optimum BL value for any design of enclosure, driver and loading (B is magnetic flux density, L is voice coil length, BL is the multiplication product of the two).
Would neodynium have an effect on the current Altec enclosure.
.................................
While Neodymium is stronger, just use less of it. I've see 11-12 ounces of Neo take the place of 80 ounces of ceramic. And the extra metal needed is less too, so the whole structure is smaller and lighter.
So the answer would be, not if done right. As I said, probably one version would have to be done to be backwards compatible, another for newer style boxes.
As you mentioned BL can also be altered in the coil. But it shouldn't be a feat for someone like Bill to do a Neo version. My concern and I'm sure his would be- is he going to sell enough to make all the work worthwhile.
i will say this, allthough the 515 e is not neo, the bass from this driver just slams you in the chest in the 828. a real punch... great for techno or electronica music. guess i need another set of cabs for jazz..
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I read what you say about these, and I always used the 421-8LF,s and also TONS of low end slam.Quote:
Originally posted by valhallax:
i will say this, allthough the 515 e is not neo, the bass from this driver just slams you in the chest in the 828. a real punch... great for techno or electronica music. guess i need another set of cabs for jazz..
I have ordered a pair of 416-8C,s and a pair of 515-8LF,s from Bill, Ill see which I prefer, and do my room with whatever is clever!
Overall, no other woofer kicked out low end like an Altec. Maybe Gauss, but Altec was always the sweetest sounding.
The 421,s in my 817A,s 816,s and 815,s also have that Land on Your Chest THUMP.
What always amazes me about Altec woofers and cabinets is WHAT they do, and the amount of energy they produce, with relatively low power, and by todays standards NO power at all.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The A-5 with 1005 horns are hard to beat.Quote:
i will say this, allthough the 515 e is not neo, the bass from this driver just slams you in the chest in the 828. a real punch...
..........................
I really miss the sound of multicells. they are still the best of any horns I've used. Just big and hard to move. But the sound...
My feeling with Altec was always the transient response- I'd hear details I didn't hear anywhere else.
JBL has a harsh edge, even the aluminum ones. They are better with Radian diaphragms, designed by an ex Altec guy Renkus.
Yeah, Old Guy, Altecs have that immediacy, that scary snap, transients were just unreal.
I, also, would hear details from recordings thru Altecs that just werent there thru anything else.
As far as audio, be it todays JBL, or anything else, it pales in comparison to what we once had. Yeah, they have lowered distortions to ultra microscopic levels, increased power handling and reduced thermal compression issues to a minimum, and with heavy weight cones lowered Fs, and yet? Yesteryears speakers sound deeper, clearer, cleaner, far less fatiguing, and overall more like music sounds like.
I also have this to say, I just cannot get into todays HIGH POWERED Audio, at all. I have some new stuff, it sounds good for a while, then, after a bit, its just too darn loud. And lacks fidelity.
Now, the kicker is one day in a convention center, they had a high school marching band, walking thru the center, playing Carnival drums, and brass, man, the power and authority of reral instruments, WITH NO ELECTRICAL AMPLIFICATION was just incredible to hear. This band with the big bass drum and a guy walking with it had so much authority and weight to it, and it filled the convention center floor, the brass cut right through, so crisp yet burnished and just right sounding, LOUD ENOUGH to command EVERYONES attention, yet never hurtful or annoying, or offensive sounding!
Then we headed over to one of the latest manufacturers booths to listen to the latest digital gizmos, and it was just PURE YUCH!
A lesson was learned that day, by more than a few people, and we all agreed how far backwards technology has gotten us.
You gotta ask, HOW does a twenty piece marching band with nothing but a few drummers and brass section fill the Javits Center Convention Floor with beautiful sound everyone could hear, AND ENJOY, and ALL the Audio companies high powered electronica sound so sour in comparison, and actually pissed people off.
At least you can listen to a recording of a marching band, thru Altecs and get a fair, although no where near as dynamic, but something like it, facsimile of what that marching band really sounds like in live.
That my freinds, THAT was the MAGIC of Altec!
And even LBJ never had it as sweet.
The same thing happened to me and a freind with tubes. My buddy has a company that produces DJ electronics, so they manufacture a device called an Isolator, and they decided to be the first and ONLY DJ gear using tubes. That tube warmth we wanted.
Well, my buddy sells me one, its good, BUT, I dunno, something about it aint quite right. I call em up, ask about the 12AX7A, and if I can put what brand of 12AX7A I want to, and do I have to rebias the unit? He told me no, you can just pop any 12AX7A in that you want to.
Well, I replaced the Chinese made Golden Dragon 12AX7A, with an Amperex 12AX7A, NOS from the mid 60,s, and HOLY you know what! What a night and day difference! Clarity, naturalness, REALISITIC, CLEAN!
My bud comes over one day, and he is like WTF did you do to this thing? How did you get it to sound like this? I told him, I gave a him a tube, he took it home and put it in his unit, calls me back muttering about how incredible it sounds but dont tell people cause he dont want it to affect sales, etc!
I got my supply of NOS RCA, Amperex, and Mullard, and Telefunken, he had to do what I did, and contact my ebay guy to buy his own supply!
WHAT did they used to know 40 years ago, that no one, or very few, know today?
I know this post is a wee bit off topic, but, its fits the discussion.
I would like to see Neodymium used to improve the 515- duplicating them in another magnet seems a waste since there is no 515 shortage.
Altecs can be improved on- there aren't the pinnacle yet, although they may have been the best in their day. I'd like to see the same type of sound- with the idea towards getting that last ounce of performance not reached yet-
You would have to define what you want the 515 to do- the short "mid bass" type horn/bass reflex is obsolete by today's standards.
Probably would have to be a couple of versions- one to retrofit into older boxes, another for newer designs.
Many mid bass units are using 12's these days, or even 10's. Driver technology has changed.
I submit if you set out to duplicate an older dirver, that's all you will do. When Altec designed the 288-G, they wanted to improve the 288. That's what I want to see- improvements not duplication.
On the subject of Neo- with the heat issues- has anyone considered Peltiers for cooling? Community has a series of speakers that pumped air around the magnet assemblies from outside the box, a seperate sealed system.
Sadly making tubes a lot has been lost- the Russians and Chinese make the majority of the worlds tubes now- and neither is at the level Amperex was. Or Mullard, or...
Amperex was part of Philips, who made millions owning the patent for the cassete tape and bought a number of the best manufacturers in Europe with those profits. I used to sell a lot of Amperex speaker drivers too- there was a 12" 3 way kit for $20 dealer cost! Wasn't Altec, but wasn't bad either. This is like 1970.
Russian tubes tend to be better than Chinese BTW.
Yeah, He gave me Sovtek, and also a Czech made tube also. The Czech tube wasnt bad, but both were really colored compared to the Amperex.
RCA 12AX7A,s with the black grid and halo getters are hot too!
However, the Amperex I have, West German manufacture, has THE BEST midbass and clean top end of them all.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nothing AFAIK. The main differences AFAIK is one of worn out tooling and a small captive 'audience', so there's been no incentive to make new tooling beyond what's been required to keep production going, etc.. This attitude is slowly changing since the DIY community and all the small businesses it has spawned is increasing demand/willingness to pay the high prices required to fund new tooling as witnessed by WE's relatively recent re-commitment to its 300B.Quote:
Originally posted by scotty j:
WHAT did they used to know 40 years ago, that no one, or very few, know today?
Once all the old tubes are gone though, I fear there will be few quality replacements since there's just not going to be enough demand IMO. Anyway, our hearing is relatively crude compared to most creatures in nature and processing power/BW is rapidly approaching (already here?) where a digital equivalent of an analog occurrence can be replicated with enough resolution that we can't tell the difference on even a subjective level, so at some point I guess vacuum tubes will be relegated to being nothing more than weird looking light bulbs while a computer processes the all digital signal chain.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">WE seemed to think so, all new tooling for the 300B had to be very expensive and it's reflected in its pricing.Quote:
Originally posted by Old Guy:
I hadn't considered the "worn out tolling"- just figured it was **** new tooling.
High Tube amp prices and computerised tooling may combine to make small runs of precision items profitable- that would be the only hope.
WRT old tooling, Cutler-Hammer was favored with a controls contract back in the late '60s - early '70s that got some USA made tube brands up and running in Israel, Mexico, and Nigeria as the manufacturers divested themselves of the cost of maintaining expensive facilities for a rapidly declining market that had always been mostly geared to the military. Consumer products typically were components that didn't meet mil-spec and 'branded' names a notch below that. the J.A. Pan company turned it into an art form though, with a QA system that allowed many 'brands' to be created from one design.
Anyway, by the time this tooling made it to Asia, China, it was in pretty tough shape judging by the number of folks who would have to buy a box full just to get a few that lasted beyond the initial burn-in.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">None taken, but you seem to miss my point, which is that it's been proven that our hearing acuity is such that at some finite point we can't tell the difference between 'live and Memorex' so to speak, just as we can trick the eyes with 3D photos or our taste buds with synthetics.Quote:
Originally posted by scotty j:
No disrespect GM, just I dont agree with you, but I do respect your right to your opinion!
DSP has come a long way in a very short period of time and the fact that apparently there's not enough market demand to offer cutting edge technology to the general public at affordable prices except in the form of various types of 'enhanced' stereo and making truly cheap/horrible sounding systems acceptable to the 'great unwashed' doesn't mean it can't sound as good, or better, as the best of the old analog systems.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nothing AFAIK. The main differences AFAIK is one of worn out tooling and a small captive audience.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So, even with proper tooling, requisite know how and engineering, the materials are still the same as they used 40 years ago?Quote:
Originally posted by GM:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by scotty j:
WHAT did they used to know 40 years ago, that no one, or very few, know today?
Metallurgy has advanced, and that means the composition of many metals used to manufacture products are in fact different than it would have been in 1967, and AFAIK, anything that is in the signal path imparts its own audible sonic characteristic to the signal, be it good or bad, depending on the individuals perception of whatever things are.
Then, the other side of the coin, is today there are so many chemicals, and substances that can no longer be used, and without certain components, things just dont work quite the same exact way they once did.
I can tell you for sure, I do not see anyone banging down Harmans door for home versions of Vertec.
But, years ago, both JBL and Altec made consumer versions of their famous stufio monitors and theater speakers, and to this day, people love the Model 19,s, Magnificents, and L300,s! In spite of their known deficiencies.
I still think a bit differntly than you do. You feel that the market for these items has dried up, people got wiser. I think that as the supplies of parts, and products dried up, and new companies couldnt duplicate the exact same sound as years ago, the people got fed up with things claimed to be not only as good, but even better, but wasnt really.
You know, with tubes, each brand has its own unique tonal charactristics, and I completely understand that. But, the thing is that not only I, but everyone I demo for, ALWAYS perfers the sound of vintage NOS tubes, of whatever brand, the tubes from the 60,s just sound superior to whats made today. In the same way I prefer the sound of certain speakers, despite the flaws, to todays modern marvels with their ruler flat response, and almost perfect linearity.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">None taken, but you seem to miss my point, which is that it's been proven that our hearing acuity is such that at some finite point we can't tell the difference between 'live and Memorex' so to speak, just as we can trick the eyes with 3D photos or our taste buds with synthetics.Quote:
Originally posted by GM:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by scotty j:
No disrespect GM, just I dont agree with you, but I do respect your right to your opinion!
DSP has come a long way in a very short period of time and the fact that apparently there's not enough market demand to offer cutting edge technology to the general public at affordable prices except in the form of various types of 'enhanced' stereo and making truly cheap/horrible sounding systems acceptable to the 'great unwashed' doesn't mean it can't sound as good, or better, as the best of the old analog systems.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OK, THIS I will accept. I only know that the things available to us today, claimed to outdo what we had yesterday, just simply does not, according to my ears.
To me, TODAY we have LOUDER! Which is not neccesarily always BETTER!
But the manufacturers are constantly telling us it IS better, and we NEED More power, and then we go get MORE power, then they come out with newer products, and once again, you still dont have ENOUGH power.
But its what they have to do to make speakers that can hold up to all this power that kills the clarity and fine detail, and sweetness, I think!
Blind tests are critical. Agreed many things can't pass them- I'm one of the biggest advocates in their favor.
I will make a bet- I can identify an Amperex versus Chinese 12ax7 8 out of ten - with the stipulation we use my guitar and amp I am familiar with.
The Chinese tubes don't get it at all for me- Sovteks are better for Blues, make my Altecs sound more like JBL's. A bit grittier, with an edge.
But for clean straight out stuff- the Amperex is good, RCA's are too. Telefunkens are fine but not common. I suspect Telefunkens are really Amperex- they look alike. Could just be common parts sources.
I really suspect there are waveform differences, but I haven't done any checking.
GM has it 100% again though- for the mass market it's going to be awful junk made acceptable by DSP.
I was brought a set of powered speakers to fix. Woofer had a 2 ohm coil- to get the last ounce out of a pitiful PWM amp. Everything underbuilt to the point of silliness- I told the customer in all good conscience that he had been ripped off and I couldn't fix them with a clear conscience. I wanted nothing to do with them. Sadly- that's where audio is headed. And to the mass market- this stuff sounds acceptable.
Hey Old Guy, remember I told you my Amperex,s wewre made in W. Germany? They were made for Amperex, to Amperex specification, in the Telefunken factory!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Except for the fact that companies like Crown, Lab Gruppen, BSS, Lake, XTA all manufacture dedicated pro audio componets utilizing digital technologies, and top of their class, supposedly, and I have listened to ALL of them, and still prefer Class AB amps to the lightweights they offer these days, and analog crossovers to even the most expensive of the DSP processors!Quote:
Originally posted by Old Guy:
GM has it 100% again though- for the mass market it's going to be awful junk made acceptable by DSP.
Now, my beef is that we are some 20 years from the time they originally really began to push digital audio to the public, remember the late 80,s? CD,s! Perferct Sound Forever!
At least the transition from Tubes to SS in the late 60,s thru early 70,s were achieved. By the time we hit the mid 70,s we had SS gear thgat actually sounded good. Even though many thought it would never happen.
But digital hasnt accomplished satisfying results in as reasonable a time period!
How MUCH longer do we have to wait? Another 20 years, WTF, I'll be 66 by then. I would like to have it while I can still do something with it! I can open a nightcvlub while in my 40,s, even 50,s, but by the time Im almost 70, I think Im gonna want to take it easy!
HOLY S__T! Thats scary, I can actually see that it isnt that far till Im almost 70!
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're 'preaching to the choir'! http://www.hostboard.com/forums/ Ignoring marketing hype for the moment I believe you're missing the point that business is market driven (otherwise they wouldn't be in business), so it's the market that's demanding high power systems because they want their speakers as small as practical for whatever reason, which (no) thanks to Hoffman's Iron Law requires we trade something for it, or very stiff suspensions (low Vas) in this case. Bottom line WRT box size Vs wide BW clarity, etc., you 'can't have your cake and eat it too', at least not without DSP.Quote:
Originally posted by scotty j:
But its what they have to do to make speakers that can hold up to all this power that kills the clarity and fine detail, and sweetness, I think!
WRT manufacturers wanting higher SPLs, that's market driven also since we're amplitude oriented animals and our hearing acuity flattens out with increasing SPL, so don't 'shoot the messenger' so to speak, they're just trying to make a decent living satisfying the masses.
Anyway, all this ultimately boils down to the masses wanting a commodity as cheap/small as current technology allows and the more they demand, the more compromised the commodity becomes until at some point an incredibly low standard of equilibrium is reached (witness B@#$) where only mass quantities of DSP can make any sense out of it.
The 'Unwashed Masses' they dont know about the big horn systems, and the time when dinosuars ruled the earth simply because they werent around for it. But, when they hear it properly done, every twentysomething audio buff that thought he loved the new age, goes on his quest for Altec, Vintage Crown amps, and old analog crossovers.
When they hear it, they know they havent heard anything else like it.
Remember 1990-1993? Horns they said! WHY do you want that? We have direct radiators now, better dispersion ( omni directional which really means your bass comes out of the woofer and cabinet and rolls back right around the side of the cabinet instead of projecting out to the dancfloor or audience where it was supposed to go in the first place ), higher power handling, and horns are beamy and they honk! I always said they didnt have what horns had. No where close.
Late 90,s and early 21stCentury, look at the resurgence horns have made, highly efficient, great transient response, high directivity ( BEAMY ), and realistic musical sound.
Yes, I agree, its MARKETING. But give the " Unwashed Masses " a clean shave, and GOOD audition of a proper horn system with analog processing and watch them turn into educated buyers scouring ebay and other used markets for the secret sound!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Man, that's funny. I was massacred over on the Lansing Heritage site for merely suggesting that JBL bodies sound good with Radians. I couple of those jaspers got REALLY sound up, silly geese.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ill tell you something, I have some radian diaphragms, and they are smoother with todays recordings than JBL,s diaphragms.Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Brennan:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Old Guy:
JBL has a harsh edge, even the aluminum ones. They are better with Radian diaphragms, designed by an ex Altec guy Renkus.
But there is a price to pay! They arent as dynamic as JBL,s diaphragm. The JBL part has that POP, but, I also recognize that music, and recordings are so vastly different than what they were when JBL was manufacturing the 2440, and 2441.
But, to be truthful, I like the Radian replacements, its smoother sounding with todays music, and I like this! I am converting. And, you certainly cant go wrong with the price! http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps they were Amperex-branded Siemens? It seems unlikely to me that Telefunken would have made up a set of tooling different from their own just to make a run of tubes for somebody else. Getting off topic here, but I like dutch Amperex's, Siemens and (shh..) Mazdas better than Teles although they're not bad either. http://www.hostboard.com/forums/ For 12ax7's anyway.Quote:
Originally posted by scotty j:
Hey Old Guy, remember I told you my Amperex,s wewre made in W. Germany? They were made for Amperex, to Amperex specification, in the Telefunken factory!
Dave
I hadn't considered the "worn out tolling"- just figured it was **** new tooling. But I think GM is spot on- the financial motivation isn't there.
The Russians have a tendency to "boiler plate" rather than precision machine. Their tubes are probably rugged, but hardly precision.
The Germans on the other hand- precision and rugged. But German tubes would cost a fortune.
High Tube amp prices and computerised tooling may combine to make small runs of precision items profitable- that would be the only hope.
I dont know GM, yes, on one hand the technology available should relegate all the old stuff to the attic, or the storage rooms.
But, for whatever reason, I find much of todays gear to just plain ol not sound GOOD, despite whatever they claim it has, does, or will do.
To me, digital audio, and high powered electronics just do not replicate the reproduced sound with any authenticity, just SPL!
And again, with ALL todays high technology, a real instrument played by a skilled musician will BLOW AWAY ANY electronic sounds, ANY DAY OF THE WEEK! And WITHOUT any electrical amplification OR LOUDSPEAKERS.
However, my idea od listening to music may be different from todays idea of listening to music, bottom line is once I begin listening to music, the specs have no influence over my hearing, nor do the graphs and freq plots. At the end of the day, it all boils down toi what my ears hear, and HOW it sounds to me! And DID I enjoy what I heard?
If I didnt, what does it matter what the specs say, or how technologically advanced it is, at that point?
Kind of sort of somthing like food, once you have overcooked the chicken and its dry and hard, too bad, its ruined, no digital time alignment, or phase correction gonna help it then!
No disrespect GM, just I dont agree with you, but I do respect your right to your opinion!
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Man, that's funny. I was massacred over on the Lansing Heritage site for merely suggesting that JBL bodies sound good with Radians. I couple of those jaspers got REALLY sound up, silly geese.Quote:
Originally posted by Old Guy:
JBL has a harsh edge, even the aluminum ones. They are better with Radian diaphragms, designed by an ex Altec guy Renkus.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're 'preaching to the choir'! http://www.hostboard.com/forums/ </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, I got very vocal with my opinions, but i want you to know I respect you and your seemingly endless amount of knowledge of all things audio to the utmost! Your one smart cookie, I just dont agree with everything.Quote:
Originally posted by GM:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by scotty j:
But its what they have to do to make speakers that can hold up to all this power that kills the clarity and fine detail, and sweetness, I think!
But, you know what? This is a great thread, and great conversation, and was the final straw for me to go back to what I know I like best, Altec sound.
So, for me it has been good!
I'd always understood it this way:
12AX7 = 12AX7A = 7025
12ax7 is the tube
7025 is the military spec number
12ax7a and 7025 are one in the same and are 12ax7's that meet a more stringent qualification.
Am I wrong?