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vinnie is vinnie and you wont be able to develop the same sound as him as we are all unique. You might be able to get close if you really tried, but you should try and look for your own voice on the instrument.
If you want to learn about his playing though, you might want to check out the unreel Book by Marc Atkinson
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 28, 2005 01:08 AM: Message edited by: S.P ]</font>
If I try playing paradiddles around the kit fast I sound not bad If I play paradiddles around the kit at a slower speed it sounds like sh*t. I just found out I don't have a good feel playing at different tempos. I can't play with a good feel just playing rudiments like paradiddles around the kit or just playing on the snare. I was using Vinnie as an example of what i'm trying to do. I guess I answered my own question BUT If anybody has advice of how to start playing with a better feel please let me know
Yeah sure, you and every other drummer on the planet.
Frank-
All of the drumming heroes we admire on this board all have one thing in common: impeccable technique. To be a great drummer requires one to get to the point where he can properly articulate what he hears in his head with his hands and feet. What makes Vinnie sound so smooth is a combination of what's going on between his ears, and how his technical ability let's him execute his ideas. So, IMO, there's really two concurrent approaches required to get to that 'place'.
1)The technical
Get yourself a good teacher, and practice practice practice. Work the hands and feet at all tempos. Rudiments are great, George Lawrence Stone's 'Stick Control' is invaluable. In addition to the 'hands only' application of rudiments and Stick Control, there are many fun ways to integrate your feet into the equation. You can also apply the exercises to the kit. A good teacher can properly lead you down that path. Additionally, there are hundreds of other books that can work out your hand-foot chops, as well as indepence. Chaffee's 'Patterns' books (if ya wanna be like Vince!) as well as Chester's New Breed books (if ya wanna be like Dave!) are perhaps the most notable.
The goal is to be able to play anything and everything with your hands a feet: total independence of your limbs, with the ability to execute at all tempos.
2)The musical
Become a sponge. Get familiar with all the styles, starting with basic rock, funk, jazz and latin. As you become comfortable with the basics, expand your vocabulary by studying how many of the artists over the past couple of decades have infused one style into another: i.e. latin/swing, rock/jazz, funk/swing.
Vinnie's 'smoothness', IMO, stems from his ability to 'hear' the proper parts to play (stemming from his vast musical knowledge) coupled with his ability to 'apply' what he hears to the drumset. This is born out by the hours and hours in the practice room over many many years in conjuction with the countless musical situations he's performed in or been exposed to. (Of course, this is all speculation on my part!!!)
To play 'just like' Vinnie is shouldn't be your goal (as S.P. mentioned), but to understand his methodology is a great way to start down the path of developing your own voice.
OR, you could disregard all the previous comments above, buy a white Gretsch drums with black rims and Remo heads, get some A Customs, and buy a pair of Zildjian Vinnie Colaiuta drumsticks, and wail away!! [img]wink.gif[/img]
-Scott
Good points all.... Frank. Firstly, let me ask you what the 'smooth Vinnie sound' is? The guy is arguably one of the worlds greatest drummers. Playing paradiddles round the kit doesn't mean (and shouldn't mean) anything.
As has been said, get yourself a good teacher practice for YEARS and YEARS, study all styles of music and know each style. Spend YEARS and YEARS in recording studios recording everything from 10 second jingles to albums and film soundtracks, tour for YEARS and YEARS with the worlds greatest musicians, study complex polyrythms and independance so it is completely internalised and each of your limbs are able to operate by themselves. Study hand technique for YEARS so you have complete and utter control of the sticks and then carry on studying for YEARS and YEARS so you are able to play whatever you want no matter how fast or complex instantly. Spend YEARS and YEARS working with musicians that you are comfortable with so you can build a rappor, learn to read anything that is put in front of you and learn how to interpret charts and then maybe..... just MAYBE you'll get that 'smooth Vinnie sound'.
Alternatively, you could wake up - smell the coffee and just try to be the best musician that YOU could possibly be, WITHOUT wishing to emulate the unatainable!! Music isn't about copying players - you are allowed to be heavily influenced by musician, but the way that Frank will get work, is because people want to play with FRANK and not a Vinnie clone. Just enjoy the drums and playing with other musicians. Forget licks, tricks and how fast your paradiddles are. You'll rarely use them, I promise you.
[img]wink.gif[/img]
Take care.
EDIT: Just realised that I repeated the other guys comment, sorry. I guess it means that there must be some truth in what we wrote!!
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 28, 2005 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]</font>
I'm going to take a wild stab at this; are you saying you don't like the "tone" you're producing? When you say someone is holding your hand back, it makes me think you're "upstroking" too much. Sometimes this comes if you've practiced on pillows too much which works for playing fast, but makes the sound thin when playing slowly.
IF that's the case, you're probably holding the sticks a little too far back and you should practice medium tempos while playing slightly more 'into' the drum. Not pounding, just generating a solid tone that sounds good to your ear.
If that's not what you mean, I'm lost. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah...ya don't need paradiddles unless you're trying to sound like Neil Peart (see Spirit of the Radio ride cymbal pattern, among others!)Quote:
Originally posted by Dazzler:
Forget licks, tricks and how fast your paradiddles are. You'll rarely use them, I promise you.
[img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
-Scott
What are best excersises to practice on the kit to get that smooth tight Vinnie sound. I have a hold back crap sound when I listen and see myself back I think i'm God's gift to the set until I see myself back i want that Vinnie cordination.it sounds like someone is holding my hand back while i'm playing.
To me, it seems like everyone missed the point of this post. If I understand that you want to achieve that legato sound vinnie gets on his stuff with Sting. I would say that this is all a feel matter. Slow tempos are arguably the most challenging, if you just want to have that smooth flowing feel.
I would get a drum machine.
Make good beats to play over, then slowly remove notes from it. Do this until you can line up with it even if there is only a hit every four or eight counts. This helps develop your feel without the nome dictating everything to you. I devised this method when I realized that I can play with a metronome fine, but without it my time wandered.
Other than that, if you notice your time is bad at a certain bpm, practice it every day until you get comfortable. Make sure to switch tempos around, as to not get stuck in one area. Also, keep math in mind, switching from 60 to 120 isn't going to help. Watch out for subdivision changes too. Triplets at 100 are the same as 16ths at 75.
One thing, Dazz, not to get into you in any way, cause I know you know WTF is up, but telling someone to wake up and smell the coffee cause they'll never be Vinnie is a bit harsh. I'm sure someone might have told Vinnie or Dave Weckl the same when they were listening to a buttload of Buddy or Tony, but they came out on top.
It just seems a little defeating.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 28, 2005 01:32 PM: Message edited by: DeeP_FRieD ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">GREAT suggestion, DF! Back in the day (when my time REALLY sucked!), I used to trade 4s, 8s, 12, and 16s with my HR-16B. A tribute to Alesis...that little box withstood many a drumstick being thrown at it! [img]wink.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by DeeP_FRieD:
I would get a drum machine.
Make good beats to play over, then slowly remove notes from it. Do this until you can line up with it even if there is only a hit every four or eight counts. This helps develop your feel without the nome dictating everything to you. I devised this method when I realized that I can play with a metronome fine, but without it my time wandered.
Frank-you'd be well served to utilize a drum machine in this manner in your practice time. It's invaluable!
-Scott
Play Dynamic
When I think of that "smooth Vinnie sound", I think of great sounding drums that also respond well to great "rebound" technique and in an environment where you can hear all of the subtle stuff in your playing. In other words you're relaxed because you can hear everything you're doing without beating your brains out.
Oh yeah and don't over-tighten the high-hat clutch.
get a gretsch. you'll sound just like vinnie.
DeepFried (and Frank) I take your point and I, on reflection shouldn't have worded my post in that manner so sorry if it offended....
You're right, it isn't wrong to aim high as it were and to set yourself limits on what is atainable, what I meant is that Vinnie is truly a one of a kind and a God in drumming, so it would IMO be pointless to try and emulate the guy.
I've no doubt that Frank will have his own sound, by the very fact that there is only one Frank! It's better to concentrate on developing that! Hope this clarifies.
Sometimes this comes if you've practiced on pillows too much which works for playing fast, but makes the sound thin when playing slowly.
BRILLIANT!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There are plenty of people with no musicality who still enjoy making noise on a kit. Not everyone wants to be a journeyman drummer. The student has to find out what is attainable for themself, developing a good touch is a reasonable goal if the person has talent.Quote:
Forget licks, tricks and how fast your paradiddles are.
You don?t need to get the Vinnie mystic ability to be a great player. First of all you can never attain what the man plays like in 5 life times. Well maybe, there is human consciousness and the odds of that happening in this universe are impossible? but it happened. Anyhow, what would you do with his abilities if you attained some of what he can do. There are some incredible drummers out there with chops up the wazzoo but they are not gigging like Vinnie is. He can groove hard, read any music thrown at him, play any gig (almost), and just flat out entertain the imagination of the human mind. Just learn how to play great time and you will work. Don?t even think for a minute that you want to play like Vinnie. You can take like 10 great drummers and give them all the same intermediate groove to play and it will sound different. Every person spaces their notes in a different feel of time. Hey man keep it real. Remember my friend. Clocks can only measure the intervals of time. But not motion.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I don't know what level you're at or what you've studied so far, and there are a lot if different factors that go into a drummer's feel, but, one important factor, that's really a pretty advanced aspect of drumming is dynamic independence.Quote:
Originally posted by frankw:
If I try playing paradiddles around the kit fast I sound not bad If I play paradiddles around the kit at a slower speed it sounds like sh*t. I just found out I don't have a good feel playing at different tempos. I can't play with a good feel just playing rudiments like paradiddles around the kit or just playing on the snare. I was using Vinnie as an example of what i'm trying to do. I guess I answered my own question BUT If anybody has advice of how to start playing with a better feel please let me know
All drummers study rhythmic independence, but not many really study dynamic independence, which really amounts to playing different accent lines with different limbs, or as David Garibaldi calls it - 2 level drumming - accents and ghost notes.
Garibaldi has it, so does Frank Briggs. For a good method book, check out Garibaldi's "Future Sounds." It's a challenge and it will change the way you play forever.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 28, 2005 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>
First of all I was using paradiddles as an example. i'm talking about hearing even strokes at any tempo and being proud of what i'm hearing weither on a camcorder or tape recorder. on one of Weckl's videos he said he used to bring a recorder on gigs. he thought he was wailing on the stage he gets off the stage and listens to his playing and it sounded nothing like what he thought he heard while playing. Weckl says everything sounded rushed or dragged. All i'm asking is what i can practice to smooth out my playing at any tempos. maybe paradiddles isn't the answer but what is. i don't think i will record myself right now because it's very discouraging to practice after i hear that sh*t
My dear wonderful sweet Mr Francis W. If you want that wonderful smooth percussive profiency try to meet Mr Colaiuta. Mr Colaiuta is a wonderful wonderful gentleman. Mr Collins and Mr Starky are also wonderful English gentleman. These wonderful percussive gentlemen can help your poor percussive performances.
I believe you're talking about 'touch' and 'feel' on the drumset.
Here's my suggestion:
Play the first page of Stick Control.
Play each exercise for at least 45 minutes. This is most easily done by playing along to a favorite CD. Tempos should vary from slow to medium to fast. Music should be as metronomic as possible.
Keep switching playing surfaces while playing each exercise. Snare...hi-hat, floor tom, ride, etc. This will make you adjust your technique to the playing surface(and keep you from getting bored).
Play kick drum on 1/4 notes.
The results will amaze you.
This will improve your time, technique, and 'touch' on the drums.
Good Luck!
Maybe a stupid question, but is somebody practicing with a mirror next to him / her, like Steve Smith does? Does it really helps, as also keeping your head straight? But hey how can you look into the mirror that way? [img]graemlins/thinking.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A. How is he supposed to 'meet' these guys?Quote:
Originally posted by AnnD:
...try to meet Mr Colaiuta. Mr Colaiuta is a wonderful wonderful gentleman. Mr Collins and Mr Starky are also wonderful English gentleman. These wonderful percussive gentlemen can help your poor percussive performances.
B. What will this meeting do to help his drumming skills?
Francis? Who is this posting Queen Elizabeth or a English friggin school marm. what is meeting Vinnie going to do? hello how are ya and gone probably. is Starky and Collins Phil and Ringo or what?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What a wacko! Lay off the crack pipe there buddy!Quote:
My dear wonderful sweet Mr Francis W.
Here's my two cents:
Vinnie studied with Gary Chaffee and Alan Dawson, to name a few, so Does it not make sense to get their books?
I have all but one of the Chaffee books and if you ask me, it's the "Dead Sea Scrolls" of Vinnie's technique.
I part of Alan Dawson's book and believe me, it's no walk in the park.
I'm surprised no one here has mentioned singing while playing. Many of the greats sing the song as they play it. This is also touched on in Gary Chester's book, The New Breed, which Weckl studied from. If you can sing a bass line or the melody to a tune and groove underneath it, you're at what I'd call level 3.
Frank,
I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you're getting at--if it's a general "feel" or "smoothness" thing or a more specific technical idea on the drums. But, if I may put my 2 cents in, it seems to me that what you're trying to achieve can really only come through experience. You simply need slow, focused repetition to gain greater comfortability on the instrument (and ultimately, in the music).
You need to improve your musicianship basically three ways: personal practice, listening to recordings, and playing with other people. Sufficient work in all three areas will vastly improve your musicianship, and THAT is where your sound comes from.
Some more specific exercises I'd recommend to improve your facility would certainly be all of the rudiments, to start with, and also G.L. Stone's "Stick Control". Just give yourself slow, steady repetition and your facility will improve over time. There's no secret; you just have to keep working at it. For some more ideas, check out my website and click on "Practice Ideas".
Best of luck!
-Tom