Printable View
Question for Steve Holmes:
I was just doing a little searching and found a post from a while back where you mentioned that you were due to take a lessons with Gary Novak the following day.
Just wondering if you could share some details with us. I am sure I am not the only one who would love to hear about it.
Sure.
The lesson was at his studio in Burbank (or North Hollywood, somewhere in the valley near LA). It was more of a hang really. I had just finished the first Altered disc and played him a couple tunes. I think he was pleasantly surprised at the fact that I could actually play because I don't think he charged me afterwards (or barely charged me, I forget). That was nice.
We didn't talk about playing that much so it wasn't a normal drum lesson where you sit and examine technique and what not. We spoke mostly about his timeline of gigs, and how they came about. I asked him about him using Sonor for a while. He said he did a Chick Corea gig and the Yamaha rental kit fell through and he had to use a Sonor kit that night. After the gig Chick told Gary that the Sonors complemented his sound better and he agreed so he switched. Sonor being overseas getting gear was a hassle I guess so he went to DW (who is driving distance from LA). With the exception of Frank Briggs I have yet to hear a set of DW's that don't sound like a cup of ass.
He spoke about playing with Alanis and had some interesting things to say, nothing I would feel comfortable posting on the internet though. [img]redface.gif[/img]
I think the only drum thing we spoke about was his singles, and I honestly don't remember him saying anything terribly different from what other guys say. He *may* have mentioned pillows (ala Dennis) but I don't remember.
Which brings me to something I've been thinking about a lot lately: how ones anatomy limits their abilities on the kit. It makes sense I think, it totally applies to athletes. The fastest runners are that way due to hard work, and an anatomy that accommodates that activity (the alternative is we could all be the fastest runners in the world if we tried hard enough). Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying guys like Gary and Dennis cab blaze singles because they're born that way. They obviously practiced. I just think that one persons body may have better strong/weak points physically than anothers, and that includes drumming, athletics, whatever. I mean look at Buddy. He's an extreme freakish example. Guys like Steve Smith and Virgil HAVE worked long and hard enough to where if they could get the blazing Buddy singles from his prime, they would have by now.
I see this in myself as well. I work on different things for the same amount of time, but they're not all at the same level. My singles suck, my double bass sucks, my doubles are in a good place. I'm just talking about physical things here. I'm not going to use this as an excuse to stop practicing, but I do believe that my body has limitations like anyone elses, and I sometimes wonder if I hit a "ceiling" in my physical ability at times in regards to things I'm not good at doing but have practiced a lot. Granted I may not be practicing them the right way I guess. That would be good news.
[img]biggrin.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 04, 2005 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Steve Holmes ]</font>
Great post Steve, I think you're on the right track regarding our own bodies. I think we can all develop our technique further (more capabilities, patterns) but the raw speed of some of them may be largely due to the amount of slow/fast twitch muscle fiber we are born with. Some people feel that playing to a burn will increase your burst speed by training the fast twitch fibers more, but my guess is that even if that works, it's limited by our genetic ceiling.
Brad
I very much agree.
So many bodily factors play into. Your over all cardivascular health will define how long, how relaxed and with what kind of stamina and finesse you can play with as your energy level and endurance drops, so does fine motor control.
Good points Steve.
I guess we all have to find the answers about the sources of our limitations:
Is it purely physical?
Is it related to technique?
Is it related to the set up?
Is it related to the specific gear?
I spend a bunch of time reviewing recordings, old and new and try to analyze what works and what doesn't.
I really admire the guys who use/used the same basic set-up year after year and consistently sound great! Weckl, Vinnie, Jeff Hamilton, Buddy Rich, etc. etc....
(Is that one of the secrets, using the same set-up all the time?)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Steve, I totally agree with you. On the other hand, there are some limitations self-imposed by our minds. If you believe or know that you can do something, for sure you'll get better results.Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
[QB]Which brings me to something I've been thinking about a lot lately: how ones anatomy limits their abilities on the kit.
When I first watched to people playing some polyrhythmic grooves (like those from Marco Minnemann, Thomas Lang or Virgil Donati), I realized those "impossible" grooves are possible (and that I could have better "interdependence" skills...)
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 05, 2005 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Navega ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">great point steve!Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
[QB]I have yet to hear a set of DW's that don't sound like a cup of ass.QB]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
Sonor being overseas getting gear was a hassle I guess so he went to DW (who is driving distance from LA). With the exception of Frank Briggs I have yet to hear a set of DW's that don't sound like a cup of ass.
I AM SO GLAD TO HEAR THAT 1 PERSON IN THIS WORLD AGREES WITH ME ABOUT DW! That is so refreshing!! While I have never said it quite like this, I am in such agreement. DW's are the most overrated drums in the world! It's a shame that they have taken so many artists from truly great companies, like the company that I would wish to associate myself with, Gretsch.
Sorry, I know it's a bit off topic? but Steve is SSSSOOOO Right!
Take Care All. F.S.
[quote]Originally posted by Frank Sanchez:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i own a set of 'em and with exception of the snare there ain't nothin' special 'bout 'em. plus the hardware easily overtightens. all my stands are eccentric and dont slide easily.Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
Sonor being overseas getting gear was a hassle I guess so he went to DW (who is driving distance from LA). With the exception of Frank Briggs I have yet to hear a set of DW's that don't sound like a cup of ass.
I AM SO GLAD TO HEAR THAT 1 PERSON IN THIS WORLD AGREES WITH ME ABOUT DW! That is so refreshing!! While I have never said it quite like this, I am in such agreement. DW's are the most overrated drums in the world! It's a shame that they have taken so many artists from truly great companies, like the company that I would wish to associate myself with, Gretsch.
Sorry, I know it's a bit off topic? but Steve is SSSSOOOO Right!
Take Care All. F.S.
dw = overrated. that's an understatement
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 06, 2005 02:43 AM: Message edited by: shockediddle ]</font>
Frank, you may not want to be associated with Gretsch because they have horrible customer service. Besides having a bad experience with Gretsch's customer service myself, I have heard many horror stories. A few readers in Modern Drummer magazine had a few choice words for Mr. Gretsch a few months ago.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 06, 2005 05:09 AM: Message edited by: drum4fun ]</font>
Cmon Steve, dish on Alanis.
But seriously, I think that the earlier one picks up the drums, and works at it, the easier chops will come. I mean early, pre-ten years old. That is what I observe anyway, the better drummers I knew growing up had started a couple of years before me and were way ahead.
It's probably musculoskeletal conditioning that's occurring, plus mental exercise when the mind is more capable of picking things up quickly and simply playing more when your responsibilities are the least in your life. COuld be numerous factors. Genetics, of course.
I teach lots of people (over 60), all ages every week. A few can, with no particular effort, move their hand up and down playing singles noticeably faster than all the others. It has nothing do with practice or experience. Practice helps them develop even further, but I'm not certain it will make the rest of us as fast as they are naturally.
Hey Steve, Can you identify why Franks drum sound better to you? I own DW and am in no way offended by your statement (not that you'd care anyhow)but I too have noticed poor sound in some DW's and other drums for that matter. For higher tuned jazz stuff (which I don't really play) I think the DW's are a poor choice but for the rock/fusion etc...I think they can sound good. I have liked using the aquarian rings on the top heads. I live in a tough area to try out lots of drums.....I suppose someday I'll finally get to sit down and play a great Gretsch or Yammi set and say holy****
By the way...I've been diggin'the Kofi Baker CD Tapestry and I think his drums sound pretty sweet on that (DW)...great CD
Ones physical threshold is something that I ponder often. Although I truly believe that the mind is stronger than any other part of our body, we are limited by the physical make-up that each of us are bless with. The Vinnie's and Weckl's of the world are physically built for their art form. If this were not true, then there would be millions of these types of players, which is obviously not the case.
I will be a marked man after I say this, but as for DW Drums, I have to disagree with the popular attitude (here at HOD) that these drums are shit... In my collection of kits I have a Yamaha Maple Custom kit, 2 Gretsch custom kits, and a DW kit (18X20 / 10X12 / 14X14 on legs). I thoroughly enjoy playing every one of these drum kits, including the DW's. The DW's are consistent and sound great in all situations.
I think hard work, an open-mind, resourcefulness, and inquisitive mind, and determination are more important to a drummer than their genetic makeup. But regarding something like singles, genetics certainly help.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I take this to mean that GN has some ripping singles. He rips at everything else he plays so why not.Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
. . . I think the only drum thing we spoke about was his singles, and I honestly don't remember him saying anything terribly different from what other guys say. He *may* have mentioned pillows (ala Dennis) but I don't remember. . . .
The fastest singles I've ever heard live, including Buddy, Billy, Tony and Virgil, was Danny Gottlieb. I Got a chance to see him live with Pat Metheny a long time ago. He makes the sticks look like hummingbird wings. It's a mental image that sticks with you. He was quoted in MD a few years ago that he warms up every day alternating 16 on a hand - 16th notes with quarter notes at 170bpm. That's 340bpm with two hands. LAWD HAVE MERCY.
Anyway, I've noticed that from day to day my singles speed is pretty inconsistent. Some days I can rip, and other days my hands and forearms just feel cold and tight. And I notice it hurts the cause if I try to warm up too fast.
Blazing singles are sweet, but one thing that I find satisfying is practicing singles at a notch above where I'm comfortable till I feel "warm" in my arms,rest for a couple minutes, repeat. I've never sat down and said, I wanna do 16th notes at 'fill in some ridiculous speed'. If I get there some day, great, but it's not my concern.
I want to make it look easy, relaxed, so I practice "at a medium pace", lol.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 12, 2005 10:44 PM: Message edited by: D.Seipel ]</font>
[quote]Originally posted by Henry II:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i've read that in md too and i'd really like to see it to believe it. i'm not doubting his talent, but 1/16ths at a buck 70 is fast, damn fastQuote:
The fastest singles I've ever heard live, including Buddy, Billy, Tony and Virgil, was Danny Gottlieb. I Got a chance to see him live with Pat Metheny a long time ago. He makes the sticks look like hummingbird wings. It's a mental image that sticks with you. He was quoted in MD a few years ago that he warms up every day alternating 16 on a hand - 16th notes with quarter notes at 170bpm. That's 340bpm with two hands. LAWD HAVE MERCY.
2 hands wouldn't equal 340, its just 1/32nds at 170
<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ July 12, 2005 11:57 PM: Message edited by: shockediddle ]</font></font>
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 12, 2005 11:58 PM: Message edited by: shockediddle ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hence the equivocal of benrand's youth-factor / "starting young" idea...altho not nec always the case of course, but i bet in many scenarios it does help... [img]cool.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by Vdrummer:
I think hard work, an open-mind, resourcefulness, and inquisitive mind, and determination are more important to a drummer than their genetic makeup. But regarding something like singles, genetics certainly help.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah. And DG, to hear him, in no way sounds like he's "obsessed" w this sort of thing...other than perhaps noticable within the finesse... [img]wink.gif[/img]Quote:
The fastest singles I've ever heard live, including Buddy, Billy, Tony and Virgil, was Danny Gottlieb. I Got a chance to see him live with Pat Metheny a long time ago. He makes the sticks look like hummingbird wings. It's a mental image that sticks with you. He was quoted in MD a few years ago that he warms up every day alternating 16 on a hand - 16th notes with quarter notes at 170bpm. That's 340bpm with two hands. LAWD HAVE MERCY
Still my fave Metheny drummer to date. Altho honorable mention goes to Paul, & Sanchez kills at what he does best. Not a slacker in the bunch. "It's all good."
Dennis [awa Virg] has some fast hands AW, of course. Mangini also. [Not that this is what it's/they're all about either].
[Did i just hear someone out there past the grandstand bleachers yell Verdi?] ;-p
Novak kills me. What else can you say about a guy that goes from CCEB to Allan & Bob Berg [God bless him], & then say, to Alanis & R Ford? Bastid. /;-)
The CCEB2 Paint the World is a sick piece of work [awa Time Warp, 16 Men Tain, & Another Standard].
The following CCEB2-PTW live tour show that i caught was even more disgusting, if that's poss.
I wonder if Chick prob has some pro-shot live footage from that tour that he could put to DVD somewhere, now that would also be something. GN took the Weck crown / bull by the horns & ran w it, I'd say. Worthy successor. Bastid. [img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 13, 2005 02:53 AM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>
He uses no fingers at all. It's stuff straight out of Morello's book, Stone Killer-type exercises played with high full strokes.
I've seen Danny play 1/16ths that way at 160, at a clinic we had and he said when warmed up, he could do 170. But he wasn't playing them straight out for a minute. Regardless, he was very fast.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">how?Quote:
Originally posted by Vdrummer:
I've seen Danny play 1/16ths that way at 160, at a clinic we had and he said when warmed up, he could do 170. But he wasn't playing them straight out for a minute. Regardless, he was very fast.
just good ol' finger control like weckl?
I can second everything that was said about Gottleib. I saw him do the same thing in a clinic. He played for a bit; bumped the metronome up. He kept bumping it up until he reached 160 as stated. Wrist strokes as V Drummer said. Amazing and not clinical or unmusical in anyway. I should mention he did this with those 2B pink neon sticks [img]graemlins/gulp.gif[/img] he seems to love.
I too can confirm all this about Gotlieb, along with the fact he seems to be a REALLY nice, down to earth guy...
I too, sympathasise about the sticks, they look horrible!!
MP
Just a clarification, he plays Full strokes, loose fingers, with rebound, not "wristed" strokes. Mangini "wrists" his strokes, at a rate of over 20 per second.
Fastest singles I've witnessed are Frank Katz's (BrandX). Kim Plainfield started Frank on drums as a very young kid and told us he had a tremendous amount of raw natural speed right from the start; he couldn't believe. Kim just rounded the edges but it was there since the beginning.
From my experience playing and teaching, I can confirm that some bodies are naturally built for facility and blazing chops...(unfortunately not mine).
Yeah, man, I'm there. Katz is a barn-burner. Dig it. Worthy successor to the Collins/Burgi/Clark BX crown. Also dig Kim on those Connors discs. [img]wink.gif[/img]
Novak, of course, alongside the Vinces, Wecks, & DiCensos of the world, is "Of the Stoopit-Ness" AW. [img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 14, 2005 05:47 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>
I recently got Lessons in natural drumming with joe morello and danny gottlieb! and hes got his thing down.
The dvd is well...interesting...pretty badly planned and they are just improvising everything they say therefore sometimes they repeat themselves, the information is not as clear and easy to follow as it could be and joe morello seems to ramble on a bit haha
But its still cool to see those 2 guys in relaxed natural (hence natural lesson in drumming) setting
[img]wink.gif[/img]