Sharing a strange idea

hi,

the following post might be difficult to understand,
but I hope, somebody tries it.

I have a problem, because I play something, which I don't understand anymore.
this it the first time, I want to mention.
all I can say, is, that it sounds great.
but I don't know why and that's not good, because it's better to know why,
because you can work better on it by knowing.
sometimes, it sounds wrong and I'am not knowing why too and so it's really hard work,
just to understand through listening without knowing.

explanation.

the basic is hi-hat and bass drum.
one with the hihat, two with bass-drum.
speed is quick.
one two three, one two three, one two three and so on.

now the hands.
it's something like the swiss triplet,
but the right hand doesn't move between Cymbal and snare.
the right hand stays on the cymbal or whereever you want.

so, the hihat is the one - the beginning point.
right hand, left hand and bass is a circle.

now the sticking (snare is right hand, cymbal is left hand)

first stroake snare,
second stroake snare together with the hihat together with the first stroake of the cymbal
second stroake on the cymbal with first stroake on the bass
second stroake on the bass with first stroake on the snare
second stroake on the snare together with ... here we are again.

so, that's my basic. no problem up to here.

now closer to the problem.

play swiss triplet between snare and cymbal but stay with one hand on the cymbal.

now the first variation. still no problem.

triplet feel and the left hand plays instead of two stroakes three.
the right hand plays two.

take this over the triplet feel and you hear the shifting.

we have now

left, left, left together with right, right
left, left, left together with right, right

and so on.

!! now, we play the same left and right. !!

now, the shifting is left and right, because now,
I play instead of the two stroakes of the right hand three stroakes
and the last one somes together again with the first stroke of the left double
and again ...

now we have a real circle.
to me, it was very funny,
that I can play this circle in 4 feel or in 3 feel.
no difference in the sticking. the difference is just in the mind.

the sticking is - and now I have the first problem, because I don't know,
where to begin, the stroake has not really a beginning point.
I start with a swiss triplet, beginning with the left hand.
but I could start at any other place.

*

left - left/right - right (regular triplet)

!!! left - !!! left -
left/right - right - left - left/right - right - right/left -
left - right - right/left - left - left/right

and so on

problem to write it down is the beginning point, because there is not really a beginning.
take this example. the beginning (left - left) is not the exact beginning
in the circle of the stroke. but anyway.

so, and now play the hi-hat and bass drum.

one two three one two three and so on.

play now together with the hands the so-called swiss-triplets,

and now change to the stroake, i posted above *

and now listen to the result.
the result is ridiculous.

there is a shifting, which sounds, but I can't even tell you,
in what kind of repetition, because it's very hard to play.

I can only listen and listen and sometimes in the future,
I will understand.
but it's easier, to know before.

what makes me really wonder, is, if I play the stroake
in triplet feel wihout the bass drum, I have no problem with the repetion and shifting of
the three times by playing this stroake.
but if I play the bass-drum pattern to it,
then it sounds not like a repetition after 3 versions of the stroake.
I wrote it down and had no problem with three.
I can count it out. I have 10 stroakes in one version.
NOW I don't count the overlapping stroakes.
after 30 strokes I am coming to the end and the repetition begins again.
and 30 stroakes divided through 4 is
?hm, ... not even, ?hm ...

so, if I play it in double time I have 60.
60 is o.k. ?hm ... (I'am just thinking). shit. without an result.

the problem is, that I HEAR THREE shiftings in combination with the hi-hat/bass,
but not after palying the stroake three times.
take the pattern hihat - bass - bass.
you can shift this for itself three times.
you can play the hi-hat on the one, or on the two or on the three.
and this is, what I'am hearing - WITHOUT shifting the bass and the hi-hat
and WITHOUT changing the hand stroaks - but not after playing the stroake three times.
I play the combination like an idiot and hear three shiftings without doing anything
different.

I play the same stroake and listen to the hi-hat and bass
and hear THREE shiftings, but I don't even know,
what the repetition number is, because if I want to count the repetition,
I can't listen anymore to the shifting.

so, please tell me someone, what's going on.

And if no one answers, no problem.
I'am at my working place and it's a totally boring day
and I have plenty of time.

thank you for listening.

It's really hard to follow what you're saying. Can you post a sample of you playing this?

What? All I hear is pops and whistles.

thanks to the guys, who tried to read my post.
Now, I made an Excel file. [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]
sorry, I can't give you an sound example.
I have only an old tape recorder and really don't know,
how to convert this into an internet file.

hear it is, the explanation file of my posting. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

http://s20.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...D38TJ4ZYP9RGRH

the real beginning is at point K - red colour.
what I can see now, is, that the repetition of the hands
in combination with the feet is after 30 stroakes.
(an overlapping stroake has to count like ONE stroake.)

30 divide through four is uneven.
so, I have to play until 60. 60 is even.
this is like 15 bars in 4.
a clear triplet feel is also impossible,
because the repetition modus of the hands is 10.
but 10, I cannot divide through 3.

so, in combination I get this very strange feeling, like "what the hell is this".
with the feet, I play triplets, with the hands, I play 10.
to play in an 4-bar modus, I have to play 60 stroakes.
to play in a 3-bar modus, I have to play four times the three = 12 stroakes (Hi-hat and Kick)
and 60, I can devide through 12.

but if I play four times the three, the combination is alwaysshifting,
because the repetition modus of the hands is 10.

It's more clear now, but I still don't know, what this shit mean.
all I can say, is, that it SOUNDS NATURELLY great.
it's not a theoretical shit. it's just LOGICAL.
the only thing is, to add left AND right ONE stroake, while playing swiss triplets.


perhaps this is not new - but for me it is. [img]eek.gif[/img]

Wow! I had a hell of a time translating your explanation. Thanks for the Excel file, it made things a lot clearer. I found a small mistake on it though. The first note should RH and LH playing together. Basically, it's a ten note hand pattern played as triplets, over a LRR foot pattern orchestrated on Hi-hat and Bass drum.

I've notated it so everyone here can mess around with the idea.

I'll leave it up for a couple of days. Enjoy all!

http://homepage.mac.com/polyostinato/

I redid it and added the ten note hand pattern so if you downloaded it in the last two minutes, get the new version - it'll help! Have fun.

Vdrummer that just impressed the hell out of me that you were able to understand that enough to write it out. Great job!

You're welcome. Have fun messing with it. I think I'll save a copy for a know-it-all student... ;-)

I thought about it some more, redid the sheet and added a version of the idea that's very similar to Shreck's. The differences are the hand pattern remains the same but starts it a different point of the cycle, and the foot pattern is now a linear foot shuffle RLR RLR, so it could be used the next time you play a shuffle in 5/4. LOL!

If you try playing these layered polyrhythmic ideas, it may help to think 12345 over and over, to focus on the longer more difficult pattern. That worked for me. Sometimes it helps to not think of anything and just passively listen to the cycle. Whatever works....

Thank you VDrummer for your explanation and your work,

now the others can read, but I can not ... [img]wink.gif[/img]
I know nothing about notes and reading.

=======================

I found a small mistake on it though. The first note should RH and LH playing together.

=======================

don't know really, if it's a mistake.
problem is, that there is no beginning.
therefore I stated the number one as the beginning point.
what you mention, that RH and LH should play together is not really a beginning point,
because the left hand stroke is the second one of the double left handed stroake,
and so the regular beginning point could be one before, as you mentioned,
but if you look at the bassdrum stroake, you will see, that it's not the beginning point
of the whole stroake.
problem is, WHERE is the beginning ?
it only makes sense to me, to state the one of the hi-hat as the beginning point.
you can put the so called REST whereever you want and you can start whereever you want.

=======================

I thought about it some more, redid the sheet and added a version
of the idea that's very similar to Shreck's.
The differences are the hand pattern remains the same
but starts it a different point of the cycle,
and the foot pattern is now a linear foot shuffle RLR RLR,
so it could be used the next time you play a shuffle in 5/4. LOL!

=======================

yes, I can hear the five too,
because of the overlapping strokes of the HAND-stroakes.
Overlapping is an accent.
and the accent is
one two one two two

or maybe

two two one two one

or ...

it depends where you start.

========================

If you try playing these layered polyrhythmic ideas,
it may help to think 12345 over and over,
to focus on the longer more difficult pattern.
That worked for me. Sometimes it helps to not think of anything
and just passively listen to the cycle. Whatever works....

========================

Don't think of anything. [img]wink.gif[/img]
that's exactly, what I mentionend too.
let if flow and just listen. IT sounds great and you have nothing to do ... [img]tongue.gif[/img]


all you need now, is the music to play to. [img]eek.gif[/img]
but to be honest. I don't miss the music.
there are so much possibilities now, to move the right hand and the left hand
in different time signatures between the toms or the cymbals.

very funny.
I have lots of problems to focus on one detail, for example the right hand.
there are always some parts, where I can't play it,
because my brain is not practiced enough, to transform the listening
in rhytmical ideas.
a big problem for me is, to play with on hand on the cymbal, because so,
the sound is not balanced enough between snare and cymbal.
it's a jazz ride and not very defined.
I made good experiences, to play the right hand sometimes on a high tuned tom.
so, the difference between the snare sound and the tom is not too big.

but the best sound maybe is to play everything just on the snare
and let the rimshots do, what they want.
if the sound of the stroake is balanced very well between the rimshot
and the normal stroake, it's just ridicolous, what you hear.
I have sometimes a problem with the balance.
the rimshot is too loud in relationship to the regular stroake.
or for example play everything on the rim and some stroakes play a rimshot
and some stroakes play regular without the rim.
and you have nothing to do, that's the funniest thing. [img]wink.gif[/img]
instead of playing, with the left hand for example,
the neccessary double stroake at point x ,
just play a triplet ONE time and then keep going and everything changes.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 26, 2005 04:35 AM: Message edited by: Schreck ]</font>

vdrummer...all i can say is...WOW dude you freakin rule!

if you dont mind disclosing some personal information, do you make a living from playing, transcribing and such drum related activities?

Because from what we've seen so far here, you definetely should be!

thanks again for taking the time and sharing all these transcribed ideas with us!

I thought Swiss triplets had flams...? Unless they're 'flat' flammed swiss triplets...

Don't be afraid- everything's gonna be all right. You're just being creative and original. Run with it...

Great job, Vdrummer. You rock. Just curious....do you use Finale for notation or something else? [img]graemlins/wonder.gif[/img]

You're welcome guys. I was trying to figure out what Schreck was describing, and thought I'd notate it and see if I could play it. Once I did, I thought I'd share it. Then I thought of the variation on the idea and added it to the end.

Shreck, reading isn't that difficult. It's easier than using graph paper or excel or drum tab to get your ideas down and be able to share them. There are lots of decent books that can help you with it. But if you don't have the time, those other methods can be useful to document your thoughts until you do.

As for the "mistake": Everytime other than the first note of the cycle, you do play both hands together. So you actually have written out the first pattern differently than every other time it occurs. You can start the pattern wherever you like, but at that point, it's a unison hit. That's why I thought the omission was an error...and another reason conventional notation can help you spot these things.

I found counting 12345 helpful to get my hands going. You apparently can do it without. I just mentioned it because everyone learns differently and something that works for one drummer may not for another. If the foot pattern is a problem area counting 123 over and over might help that. I did put the whole thing together without counting it - pretty quickly too by blanking my mind and listening to it as you suggested.


Drumdoc69 - I do use Finale, and I'm trying to learn Sibelius since one of the magazines gave it to me.

S.P. - I teach a boatload of students every week and write for 2 publications, Drum! and JazzTimes, doing reviews, transcribing and feature articles. I've written for MD and Electronic Musician too.

OT:I broke a wrist about 8 years ago, had surgery to screw it back together and couldn't gig for 6 months.

I healed perfectly but wanted to be more diversified and write more, and not as dependent on gigging in case something like that happened again. I wrote an article about dealing with it for Handidrummed.com with exercises at:

http://www.handidrummed.com/articles/singlehanded.php

cjbdrm - I didn't think Shreck really meant flams - I thought he meant unisons, which is why I changed them to flat flams. His Excel file seemed to suggest that too, and that's more common when played on kit, unless it's a Latin thing. If I'd written flams with single grace notes on the hi-hat or snare, it would have been much more confusing than it already is. And it's plenty confusing already! ;-)

Cheers,

Brad

Hi Vdrummer,

thank you for your attention.
if you now stop paying attention, it's really no problem.
I nearly stopped too, because it's too strange.
And I got really confused too, yesterday.
it's really the first time,
that I play something, which I don't understand completely.

here is the new excel file with examples, which belong to this post.

http://s29.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...A2WWZ3UOPK6V7V

the last three days, I played this over and over and yesterday
I made a big step forward.
I practice a special thing now since one year and couldn't solve the problem.
yesterday I could.

======================

I found counting 12345 helpful to get my hands going. You apparently can do it without.
I just mentioned it because everyone learns differently and something that works for
one drummer may not for another. If the foot pattern is a problem area counting 123 over
and over might help that. I did put the whole thing together without counting it -
pretty quickly too by blanking my mind and listening to it as you suggested.

======================

yes, one two three one two three is o.k., but not the key.

Now I know exactly, WHY it sounds so strange.

the base is the hi-hat.
now take a look to the left hand first.

I notated in the only way I can. In excel.

Example 1.

from red to red is one circle.

the shifting is the key. it's not the one two three.

example 2 now with bass drumm.
bass and hi-hat plays always the same, so do the hands.
but it shifts.
that's the reason why it's not too helpful, to count one two three.
because with the hands you loose every third stroake one note.
that's the reason, why it's in ten.
you don't really loose. you loose only in comparison to the one two three notes.
it's better to count or sing Dada-dada-dadada-dada-dada-dadada.

I had the last days a lot of problems with the first stroakes.

problem 1 in excel.

I just write down the problem stroakes.
I had to work on this some hours.
I'am a right handing player. sorry for not being a both hand player.
You mentioned something with the shuffle.
If I play a shuffle, I have no problems,
to play the same with left hand and with the bass.
but this didn't solve my problems, because if you focus on the Hi-Hat,
the shuffle is gone.
so, I had first work on this problem.

I have to say, that the speed is quite high.
the bass is around 250 - 350 b.p.m.

so, after working on the problems, I was able to hear the shifting
during my complete playing and it was very interesting,
to play with this shifting.

after working on my left hand problems, I played all together,
but still focused myself on the left hand.
After focussing enough on the lweft hand stroake

dada dada dadada dada dada dadada dada dada dadada

IN COMPARISON to the bass drumm stroakes, it was getting really interesting,
because now I could ACCENT some left hand stroakes, by playing rimshots.
and NOW the hell was going on. REALLY the hell.
Sorry for my enthusiamsus, but now I played with the left hand
rimshots too, but not in the same area of the snare.
so, I had the left hand rimshots sounding in a different way then the left hand rimshots.
and I accented the right hand rimshots in another way.
the accents where played not during the period of the ten stroakes,
but for example during the period of 20 stroakes.
It sounds a bit like a 5/4.

and yesterday, it was the first time, that it works by playing the
right hand on the cymbal.
It was not the sound, why it doesn't work until yesterday.
if you now focus still on the snare, but also a little on the cymbal,
you get a kind of 5/4 feeling, but it's not a 5/4 I think,
but still with the shifting of course.
I dont know, why it's a difference to play with the right hand one time on the snare,
and next time together with the left hand, who plays still on the snare, on the cymbal.
perhaps because the rigth hand is now LEADING ? or you think, the right hand is leading ?

so, and yesterday I solved the biggest problem.
I still don't know why, but I solved it.

I work now since one year on the problem,
to change the feeling during the playing.
I wanted to change from a triple feeling to a quarter feeling,
by playing still the same foot patterns one-two-three.
sometimes it works, sometimes not, but it was always a big
lost of dynamic by changing from 3 to 4.
and the turnaround from 4 to 3 was always very dangerous,
because you have to change with a special stroke.
second and biggest problem was, to play with the foot pattern in the quarter feeling,
because the cycle is over after 3 bars,
I wanted to play the foot pattern in 3 over the hand pattern in 4.
it was always a big problem, to check during the hole part of 12 times 3 bars,
where the bass drum should be.

(3 bars of 4 is 12.
the cycle is 3. so I have to play the cycle 3 and 1. this is four.
now the beginning point changes.
if I play 3 bars of 4, I'am playing 12 times the three
and I made the cycle.)


Example 3.

quarter feeling. we can forget at this point the right hand.
again you can choose every other beginnig point of the bass drum.
the repetition is 3. red colour.

bass and hi-hat is in 3. so, you have a shifting, playing in four.
and I had BIG BIG problems, to "improvise" over four bars,
because you have to know exactly, where the bass drumm double is "AT EVERY TIME".

now it works. I still don't know why.
I wrote it down.
But I think, I made a mistake from 1 to 192 ?
perhaps because of the beginning point ?
but if you look at point 192 and then at point 672 -
this is the circle. (background in red)
I made some test after 192 and it works too.
and now I'am asking myself, why it works ?
it's too much to memorize. from 192 to 672 is really too much.
but it works. why ? no idea.

but anyway. the changing between the feeling of the shifting three and the
quarter feeling is now easy.
it's just the way of thinking, which changes.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 29, 2005 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Schreck ]</font>

Layered polymetric phrases are very confusing, aren't they?

Good luck with your idea. I think everyone approaches this stuff differently. For me, I try to think in layers. The feet are in 3, and since this phrase is shorter, it's easier to completely forget (i.e. automate with muscle memory). The hands are a longer phrase, so I found counting 12345 helpful until I was able to play the hand pattern on top of the foot pattern. Once I heard it a few times, I didn't have to count it anymore. I think it depends on how comfortable you are at setting different limbs on autopilot. I've played that foot pattern for about a decade now, and have done the hand pattern (as flams though not unisons) before too. That obvously made it a lot easier to put the two together. Plus, it's a relatively short cycle. Peace,

Brad

Cool stuff going on here Schreck.

From what i'm reading on your excel tab, it's in 9/8 (or 18/8 as you write it). So i've done a little MIDI to show what it sounds like.

There are basically two rhythmic things going on in your pattern - one is straight on the beat every three notes (ie counting the "three" 9/8 usually is: a compound waltz, or something like that, lol), and the other is a pattern of five followed by four...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><pre>1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3
*--*--*--|*--*--*--|*--*--*--|*--*--*--
0-o--0-o-|0-o--0-o-|0-o--0-o-|0-o--0-o- </pre></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, knowing this, you can hear the ostinato a lot better...

http://rapidshare.de/files/4531494/schreckMID.mid.html

Incedentally, i got Sonar 4 Producer recently and this is the first proper midi i've done with it. Very cool program, and very easy to use. Who else has had experience with it here?

hi LDGuy,

thanks for the midiFile.
Perhaps you can play what I mean.
Hi-Hat and Bass is o.k.

now the snare.
what I hear is

bbb bb b bbb bb b bbb bb b ...

Add one, and it's oke.
that's because of the clean circle between left hand and right hand.
see, what I mean in the Excel file. I made a new - tabelle ? - called LDGuy.

http://s51.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...Z1CAW9UH11IVJV

try with (left hand)

bbb bb bb bbb bb bb bbb bb bb ...


sorry, but I can't read your notes.
what is Hi-Hat, bassdrum, left hand and right hand ?

I would be happy, if I could hear a 9/8 in my version. [img]eek.gif[/img]