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I just bought an M500 at auction.... for $5.00!! I'm trying to do some research on it now. I've done a search, and I find a bass reflex box, with a Mantaray horn.... that is not what I have, However. The M500, that I purchased, looks to be based on the 816VI cabinet, that can be seen here....
816VI link
What's the deal with the multiple versions? Any have any info on this horn version of the M500?
Who knows? Altec got really sloppy in its last decades. Bill's A700 is the only Mantaray/816 VI combo that comes to mind: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/...akers/a700.htm
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, I just found what I've got..... apparently, I was looking in the wrong spot before.Quote:
Originally posted by GM:
Who knows? Altec got really sloppy in its last decades. Bill's A700 is the only Mantaray/816 VI combo that comes to mind: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/...akers/a700.htm
It's here .... a 9894
Maybe it just uses the M500 crossover? Also, mine doesn't use much plywood. It's mostly, ans OSB looking material.
I need to get some pictures up!
I guess it could be a 9864, too. I haven't compared the two spec sheets closely enough to determine which matches mine, yet.
I would suspect the cossovers were similar. Either at some point the crossovers were changed out, ot during the bankruptcy a production decision was made to just "get em out".
"Engines" were meant to be biamped, with specific EQ/DSP requirements, and AFAIK, were never issued with a passive XO. That said, a stock M500 XO (from a completely different system) is probably the closest ready-made for the purpose, but still a long way from being correct for the application. M500s used 95dB reflex-loaded 3154s, a huge difference from a horn-loaded 515.
Regardless, if you got an Engine for $5...what a score! Congrats!
Counting the EV variants, there were many Engine-equipped models, with the basic differences being;
12" or 15"
60 or 90 degree HF horn
cab layout and dimensions (most reliable model ID factor)
A quick look at the XO cutout should reveal if it was Altec-installed (which I doubt).
Properly biamped and EQ'd, a single could make an awesome center channel for HT.
Some of the 8500 series DEQs (dirt cheap used) were intended for Engine use.
Wish you had 2, I'd buy the XOs, as that's all I lack in putting together a second M500 pair.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So this is a 90's product then?Quote:
Originally posted by Old Guy:
...... or during the bankruptcy a production decision was made to just "get em out".
In the interest of 100% disclosure- I don't know much about that item- I was getting seriously away from Altec at that point..but to answer to the best of my ability that is a 90's product.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did the EV versions use a EV driver, or was it the same Altec driver? ....This design is from the EV years, of Altec, correct?Quote:
Originally posted by bfish:
[QB]Counting the EV variants, there were many Engine-equipped models, with the basic differences being;
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To me the 9864 and 9894 look identical, to each other and to mine.Quote:
12" or 15"
60 or 90 degree HF horn
cab layout and dimensions (most reliable model ID factor)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The cutout looks factory to me, although, a little big..... about the size of the hole needed for one of the bi-amps Altec had for the 828 cabinet. It has a piece of masonite stapled in place and the M500 crossover is mounted in that. It all looks factory finsihed, Though. The masonite is painted, and even has a few stampings on it.... although not very legible.Quote:
A quick look at the XO cutout should reveal if it was Altec-installed (which I doubt).
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right now, it's making a fine left channel in my stereo :-)Quote:
Properly biamped and EQ'd, a single could make an awesome center channel for HT.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not familair with Altec electronics... do mean something like this ebay auctionQuote:
Some of the 8500 series DEQs (dirt cheap used) were intended for Engine use.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wish I had 2, too....., but man that would have cost me $10!!! :-)Quote:
Wish you had 2, I'd buy the XOs, as that's all I lack in putting together a second M500 pair.
Here's a couple of pictures.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2007/09/3.jpg
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2007/09/4.jpg
Unfortunately, the outside has been painted with a heavy layer of wall paint. The inside is very nice with the exception of some cracking and lifting of the black Zolotone type coating on the baffle board.
Wow, what a sweet find!
Also the M500 XO is centered at 630Hz. Engines are recommended to cross at 1kHz for 15"s, or 1.2kHz for 12"s.
I don't know how well an Engine's HF loading would hold up crossed that low, probably OK, but HF directivity control that low will be shot to heck.
Looks like a super buy. And 130dB - I can't even imagine what that's like! Please forgive my ignorance, but what is meant by the term "Engine?"
The EV models used Bill's Engine too. Don't know the exact timeline, but all were from the late-80's-90s EV period.
9864 has a 60 deg horn, 9894 has a 90. Measure to determine which. The AlPro Vintage library probably has the most info on various models, and a general product matrix.
Your ebay link is to one of the Microaudio equalizers I had in mind, but from the lit, it appears the 4024 is the one I should have referred to as having presets for these particular models. Looks like EQ and XO in a single package. Further investigation would be wise, I'm pretty lost as to much of the latest Altec black boxes myself.
According to the lit, the nameplate could be removed, leaving an appropriate opening for a "standard" XO. Since an M500 matches a med-low efficiency woofer to to a high-eff horn, I don't expect it to be the best for a high-eff/high-eff Engine, and as such, wouldn't be the best choice. The switchable EQ on an M500 merely adds CD shelving, but doesn't change the mismatched pad.
I'm headed out the door to spend a few days on/near the water. Maybe someone can fill in the blanks while I'm
"Gone fishin', instead of just a-wishin'". http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes it is, and to think I didn't even know my newest favorite speaker existed before this :-) ....I just wish I could have found two, so I could have a stereo pair. I guess I'm going to have to start searching for a second, but I don't think they are common.Quote:
Originally posted by Charles Clark:
Wow, what a sweet find!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've read previous posts referring to the design as Bill's, and I see the copyright info at the bottom of each page here on the board. I assume this means he designed it, or does he just own the copyrights, as part of his purchases from the Altec closure?Quote:
Originally posted by bfish:
The EV models used Bill's Engine too. Don't know the exact timeline, but all were from the late-80's-90s EV period.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The pictures in the literature that I've seen online, all seem to use the same horn. I didn't notice the 60 and 90 difference in the literature until I went back and looked for it, after reading your post. I can't seem to print scanned literature out very well, and reading it on the monitor doesn't work very well, for me, either.Quote:
9864 has a 60 deg horn, 9894 has a 90. Measure to determine which.
I think I have the 60 degree version. How do I measure a horn? I see multiple angles, and am not sure which ones I should check. Further more, I'm not sure how to physically measure them.... none of the lines form a vertex
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, that's handy, thanks!Quote:
The AlPro Vintage library probably has the most info on various models, and a general product matrix.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'll keep an eye on Ebay for one..... I don't know were else I'd find one.Quote:
Your ebay link is to one of the Microaudio equalizers I had in mind, but from the lit, it appears the 4024 is the one I should have referred to as having presets for these particular models. Looks like EQ and XO in a single package. Further investigation would be wise, I'm pretty lost as to much of the latest Altec black boxes myself.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've heard of an L-pad, but never just "pad", can you explain further?Quote:
According to the lit, the nameplate could be removed, leaving an appropriate opening for a "standard" XO. Since an M500 matches a med-low efficiency woofer to to a high-eff horn, I don't expect it to be the best for a high-eff/high-eff Engine, and as such, wouldn't be the best choice. The switchable EQ on an M500 merely adds CD shelving, but doesn't change the mismatched pad.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think it's the name given to the combination LF/HF driver that I have. It's different than previous Duplex drivers, that really were two drivers bolted together. Mine only has one magnet structure.Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart Welwood:
Looks like a super buy. And 130dB - I can't even imagine what that's like! Please forgive my ignorance, but what is meant by the term "Engine?"
I don't think it refers to the whole box, but I could be wrong.
The "Engine" speaker is, essentially, a giant version of the 604. The difference is that it uses a large (299) diaphragm, uses the same magnet (instead of 2 like the 604), and a bigger horn. The 60-degree horn mouth is pretty much square. The 90-degree horn is more rectangular.
Bill designed these - they were his idea, and belong to him. He still makes them, but the horns are hard to find.
Although, he IS working on a 12-inch version for home use, replete with a newly designed cabinet.... http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">[ September 26, 2007 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Todd W. White ]</font>
Thanks Todd, I thought I remembered Bill saying the same several years ago, but the more I thought about it, the less sure I was.
Fishing was just so-so, multi cold fronts and sporadic power generation made it tough, but I brought home a nice mess anyway. Now if I could only access my kitchen for its' intended purpose....
AbG, your horn looks like a 60 to me also. If you have a carpenters square, insert the corner in the mouth, if it's not a near fit with the final flares of the wide dimension, it's a 60.
The "pad" I refered to is whatever method is used in the XO to attenuate the H.E. HF to match the M.E. LF in the M500. Using that XO on your 98X4 will result in over-attenuated HF.
The recommended XO frequency for the 98X4 was likely chosen at the point which gives the nearest match of LF/HF directivity. Crossing below that point will give a much wider and less balanced polar response in the most important range.
For a ready-made Altec XO, one of the N1200s would be better that the M500, allowing better range of HF atten., and a more appropriate XO point. (Not just saying that because I want your M500 XO, a single's little/no help). Biamping is still the best by far. Until you get a pair though, passive would be the most cost-effective.
I remember some time ago, a member bought one 9864 and one 9894 on eBay. Might be worth tracking down to see if he'd sell one. Also, there's a possibilty of a stray still existing somewhere in AlPro's inventory. I think most Engines ended up flown in HOW apps.
To be truly fullrange though, they still need a sub and VHF. Just something to consider if planning purchases. No matter what you do, you'll likely not see the same cost-effectiveness of this purchase. http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mine is square, so it must be the 60..... so I have a 9864.Quote:
Originally posted by Todd W. White:
The 60-degree horn mouth is pretty much square. The 90-degree horn is more rectangular.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wondered if Bill could build these. I would think the frame would be completely different on the back side from all the other drivers.Quote:
Bill designed these - they were his idea, and belong to him. He still makes them, but the horns are hard to find.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Any idea when it will be ready? How will it be marketed?Quote:
Although, he IS working on a 12-inch version for home use, replete with a newly designed cabinet.... http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Any chance we could be allowed to do that? Not having an edit feature is kind of a pain.Quote:
<font color="#FFFFFF"><font size="1">[ September 26, 2007 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Todd W. White ]</font></font>
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Audio_by_Goodwill:
What makes Biamping the best? I can see it having merits for a pro-audio installation, but for the home too? Elctronic XO's have a pretty steep slope, I believe.... can't that be duplicated with a passive? ....or is that not the issue? I think I've read of 18db/octave passive, although, I don't think I've ever heard of a 24.
Passive crossovers have inherent issues. They can be minimized. Lossy components, phase issues, just to start.
Where did you hear electronic xo's all have steep slopes? .
The DCX which is pretty cheap has 6,12.24,and 48 selectable.
to be fair I did lood at the $109 MSRP Behringer and it does have 24 db slopes...but that's a $79 over the counter item. Amazing for $79, but if you can afford something better..eveen a step up at Behringer gets you 3 way stereo and delays, still 24 db though. those are primarily SR units. @4 protects HF drivers better, but in some case may not "sum" properly.
That's why I like the DCX. that amount of control was impossible at any price not long ago.
Blue cats, from 4-14 lbs. Directly below Lock & Dam 14 on the Arkansas River. Caught a 70 lb blue there years ago...on a Zebco!
On MR horns, the throat slot is vertical, so perpendicular to the slot should be 60 degrees. Just curious, what material is that horn of?
N1209 is 1200, N1285 is switchable 500/800/1200. Looks like the 1285 might be more appropriate, more versatile to have around too. I don't have either, or I'd sure offer to swap. Not in any hurry for M500 XOs, just another thing I have most of the parts for. Kinda silly really, eBayers part 'em out, I put 'em back together when the $ are right.
The biamp/passive XO thing can become a huge debate. I prefer the end result of biamping, and so did Altec, where the 98X4s are concerned anyway. Once you have the amps and an active XO or DSP, you can use them with most anything, not so with purpose-built passives. Most folks that biamp never go back...
If your Pioneer tweets are the old Pioneer/Fukuin PT series, they're very nice tweets. Not sure how well they'd like going down to ~7kHz though, memory says they crossed a little higher. They won't near reach the Engine's 130dB capability either, but you probably won't either...
[quote]Originally posted by bfish:
Fishing was just so-so, multi cold fronts and sporadic power generation made it tough, but I brought home a nice mess anyway. Now if I could only access my kitchen for its' intended purpose....
What did you catch? Bass? Catfish? Blue Gill?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So it's the final flares...... I wasn't sure if it was that easy, and couldn't think of an easy way to do a quick measurement to check different angles. The carpenters square doesn't fit.... looks like the 60 degree pair of sides isn't the one I was expecting.Quote:
AbG, your horn looks like a 60 to me also. If you have a carpenters square, insert the corner in the mouth, if it's not a near fit with the final flares of the wide dimension, it's a 60.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok gotchaQuote:
The "pad" I refered to is whatever method is used in the XO to attenuate the H.E. HF to match the M.E. LF in the M500. Using that XO on your 98X4 will result in over-attenuated HF.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Should I assume the N1200 has a 1200hz crossover point?Quote:
The recommended XO frequency for the 98X4 was likely chosen at the point which gives the nearest match of LF/HF directivity. Crossing below that point will give a much wider and less balanced polar response in the most important range.
For a ready-made Altec XO, one of the N1200s would be better that the M500, allowing better range of HF atten., and a more appropriate XO point.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's silly, of course it helps.... you just need to find a single XO twice :-) I figured we'd work something out as soon as I can figure out what I'd like to use in it's place.Quote:
(Not just saying that because I want your M500 XO, a single's little/no help).
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What makes Biamping the best? I can see it having merits for a pro-audio installation, but for the home too? Elctronic XO's have a pretty steep slope, I believe.... can't that be duplicated with a passive? ....or is that not the issue? I think I've read of 18db/octave passive, although, I don't think I've ever heard of a 24.Quote:
Biamping is still the best by far. Until you get a pair though, passive would be the most cost-effective.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'll search again, but I didn't find a whole lot during a search last time.Quote:
I remember some time ago, a member bought one 9864 and one 9894 on eBay. Might be worth tracking down to see if he'd sell one. Also, there's a possibilty of a stray still existing somewhere in AlPro's inventory. I think most Engines ended up flown in HOW apps.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The bass isn't too bad. Some of my CD's seem to have plenty, others don't. I assume it's the way they're being mastered nowdays. Still, bass isn't my first concern. I have noticed the lack of high frequencies. I do have a pair of Pioneer super tweeters that remind me of very little Altec multicells, that I might try.Quote:
To be truly fullrange though, they still need a sub and VHF. Just something to consider if planning purchases. No matter what you do, you'll likely not see the same cost-effectiveness of this purchase. http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">70lbs! That's not a fish, that's a whale!Quote:
Originally posted by bfish:
[QB]Blue cats, from 4-14 lbs. Directly below Lock & Dam 14 on the Arkansas River. Caught a 70 lb blue there years ago...on a Zebco!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">FiberglassQuote:
On MR horns, the throat slot is vertical, so perpendicular to the slot should be 60 degrees. Just curious, what material is that horn of?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess, I don't understand. If the slope is the same, and the crossover frequency is the same, what's the differance?Quote:
The biamp/passive XO thing can become a huge debate. I prefer the end result of biamping, and so did Altec, where the 98X4s are concerned anyway. Once you have the amps and an active XO or DSP, you can use them with most anything, not so with purpose-built passives. Most folks that biamp never go back...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They are a PT-406F from a pair of CS-88a's that I bought cheap because a woofer was blown and the cabinets were toast.Quote:
If your Pioneer tweets are the old Pioneer/Fukuin PT series, they're very nice tweets. Not sure how well they'd like going down to ~7kHz though, memory says they crossed a little higher. They won't near reach the Engine's 130dB capability either, but you probably won't either...
Would I really need to crossover at only 7khz?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When electronic XO's are spoken about, usually I hear steep slopes mentioned. I thought a steep slope would be desired. Is that not the case?Quote:
Originally posted by Old Guy:
Where did you hear electronic xo's all have steep slopes?.
For the next logical step, check out Lenard Audio's XO ed page.
That oughtta keep you busy for a bit... http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">70lbs! That's not a fish, that's a whale!Quote:
Originally posted by Audio_by_Goodwill:
That's all the excuse I need to brag a little;
http://members.cox.net/notthatstupid...4%20modrsz.jpg
That was back when I was lean & mean, a fish like that might whip me now...
Might as well order the whole enchilada. Rod Elliot pretty well covers it all in Biamp pt 1 and Biamp pt 2. Pour a bevarage and settle in for some study.
Re 7kHz XO, after looking back, no, 9864 doesn't lose -6dB till ~ 10kHz. The plot is based on summed single drivers though, with no XO/EQ in the way. With a passive XO, you could go way higher, (if you can ignore that big nasty dip at 10kHz). If you got hold of a 4024 or equiv XO/EQ, you should be able to get the claimed 18kHz as-is, no extra tweet.
Just play with it, with an eye on protecting your tweets, you're not gonna hurt the Engine.