I heard that he broke his hi-hat stand.
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I heard that he broke his hi-hat stand.
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Tony wails those quarters on the hi hat on VSOP live under the sky (once again thanks to peter c for opening my eyes to this recording!)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">lol, that would explain it.Quote:
Originally posted by benrand:
I heard that he broke his hi-hat stand.
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Tony! Tony! Tony!
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Hi guys, I've been listening to a lot of the miles davis stuff from the 60's - the quintet with tony. The first record I heard was 'Four and More', which blew me away. I love the way Tony plays time on the ride cymbal, but i noticed that on this recording, on tracks like four, and seven steps to heaven, you can't hear him playing the 2 and 4 on the hi-hat. I found this strange because if you watch those early clips on drummer world from that era he is playing that hi-hat pedal like a madman. The hi-hat is definately mic'd up because he uses it in a decorative way now and then throughout the performance, and you can hear it very clearly.
Now, I bought the best of Seven Steps to Heaven 1963-1964 cd yesterday. And was surprised to hear this time, he was playing the 2 and 4 very securely througout, and it can be heard clearly.
So... my question is,... was Tony experimenting with not playing the 2 and 4 during the four and more gig? If so, this is a very intersting concept. Obvsiouly, one should be able keep time using only a ride cymbal in most situations, but the the 2 and 4 hi-hat is part of that language and something I'm sure Tony was brought up doing from age 5.. [img]eek.gif[/img] Especially in a quintet like that, playing at those tempos - you'd think he'd need to lay down that 2 and 4 for everyone to lock into. But man I'm amazed how well it swings and how natural it feels all the same. Any Tony experts out there that know what was going on here?
Tony played straight quarters on the HH as well. Tony plays broken time, so having a HH on 2 and 4 makes it too straight.
It's all about melodic phrasing, and the HH is one of the voices for orchestration.
A band of that caliber does not need someone slamming out time like a robotic 2 and 4. They all have good time, and they just play with it.
Cool yeah that's what i figured. I was just suprised to hear Tony take a different approach on the second record i mentioned. A lot of drummers like Jack DeJohnette use tasteful a combination of playing time on the hi-hat and then using it melodically, and at the ends of phrases, to tip the time and create tension. And this is what I hear tony doing on most studio recordings from that time. I was just wondering why he isn't playing time on the hi-hat at all during that gig.
Ah, Four & More, a seminal recording for me. Such inventive, groundbreaking conceptual interplay. Exhibiting such maturity, intelligence and such a sophisticated invention all the time and re-evaluation of an interplaying concept going on here. All with such drive, a beautiful touch, beautiful sound. And he was what... 17? Aw man, what a revolution and what an innovator he was. How inspiring is that!!???
By the way... a little hi-hat, snare drum and hi-hat "time"/"solo" type of introduction to the track "Four", but, no, generally he was into open/ride mode for just about all this spirited and historic performance it would seem.
I notice, sometimes he would strip everything down on occasions, around and about his period with Miles, particularly later I guess, (remember "Sorcerer"), where he'd just contribute ride cymbal with hardly anything at all for long stretches of time. I guess he felt like in that moment it was all that was needed in his judgement. I remember reading an interview once where he was talking about the bass drum and his approach to it... and him explaining that he felt to play it where it "meant something".
To me, this is where he defines his approach and priority very clearly. He did things to "mean" something. Nothing was ever flash-based, superficial or superfluous with him, for me. I always felt he totally qualified and supremely earned the title "artist" to the fullest degree.
Something else.
Gary Husband
Ah thanks Gary, that's very insightful. I had wondered he had simply evolved into this way of playing over the course of the year between the two records. and from what you are saying he obviously he went further, and played even more stripped down. I will have to check out Sorcerer now. It is such a beautiful way of playing where every voice of the instrument is used in a meaningful way, never unnecessarily.
By the way, I love your playing with holdsworth, and force majeure its brilliant. I saw you play with level 42 up in scotland two years ago, awesome gig - thanks so much.
Very kind Elpatricio, thank you.
Roy! Roy! Roy! [img]wink.gif[/img]
Check out early-mid 60's recordings w/Roy Haynes like John Coltrane "Dear Old Stockholm" or his recordings as a leader. Roy is one of the first innovators in breaking up the time and using the hi-hat on different parts of the beat. Tony has often said that Roy is one of his biggest influences.
And relating to Gary's post on the mid-60's Miles stuff, I've read that at some point in that band that Miles told Herbie Hancock to not comp with his left hand so much because Miles felt that it was too restricting of a sound and that it would free up the phrasing of his right hand. Remember that at that time Miles was going for this more open sound in his music in terms of structure, harmony etc. So it could possibly be that Tony's playing at that point was heavily influenced by the direction of Miles and him reacting to this freer and open music. And Roy [img]wink.gif[/img]
Roy, oh yeah,
I always felt I heard a strong correlation between "Four & More" and "Now He Sings Now He Sobs". That clean, tight, intense and crisp articulation. I never really checked which record came before which. Didn't really care. Both incredible performances.
As much as I revere Vinnie, Bonzo, Weckl, Bozzio, Simon, Gadd, Mitch Mitchell and a certain Husband cat who played on an album called IOU (to mention just a few) I must say that I think Tone was, to quote Miles verbatim: "the baddest motherfucker to EVER sit down at a drumset."
Let me augment that by saying Tony Williams was the hippest most adventurous envelope-shredding rhythmatist who ever picked up a stick. I regret my collection of Tony Williams disks is so small, only 37 records and CDs.
I feel pressed to say, in light of the posts here and with the utmost respect to everyone involved, that I have read the quote in more than one source (credited to either Wayne or Herbie or Ron) that: If Tony was pissed off about something he wouldn't play anything but that ride cymbal all night long.
37 is much better than 3! haha
Does anyone know of where I can find any tony williams interviews on the internet? Or does anyone own an old magazine with a tony williams interview they could kindly scan in for me?
I feel it would be a great insight into his concept. Thanks in advance
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't. But I'll tell you my Tony story.Quote:
Originally posted by elpatricio:
Does anyone know of where I can find any tony williams interviews on the internet? Or does anyone own an old magazine with a tony williams interview they could kindly scan in for me?
I feel it would be a great insight into his concept. Thanks in advance
Back in college, me and my bro were broke. It was summer and we kept noticing that the Tony Williams Quintet was playing at WolfTrap--a beautiful outdoor theater in ViennaVA.
We decided to go and hang out at the gate, because it was outdoors and we could listen to the music for free. All of a sudden a massive roll was being played, we were freaking out. Then they slammed into a song from Civilization(this was that tour and also one of my favorite albums)
I was so excited hearing Tony play!
Then some guy came out of the gate and asked of we wanted to buy some tickets. We said we were at the gate because we were broke and just listening.
He gave us a sympathetic look and handed us two tickets----10th row center. Killer.
Tony Williams' sound was very identifiable---his wash of the hihat cymbals sounds the same on the albums as it does live. His cymbals were no cymbals, they were explosives. Tony proceeded to play the most powerful drums I've ever witnessed. And I might add he was heaviest hitter as well---very LOUD---incredible!
Man, I love Tony's hihat sound!
Courtesy from the biggest, baddest Texan since Hank Hill...HOD's own FIVE EIGHT
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...WLifetime3.jpg
Caption: You know you're in trouble when you get to the gig and these guys are your opening act. The Tony Williams Lifetime with Jack Bruce was the last band in which Tony played a four-piece Gretsch.
Thanks for the technical assist, Pocket. [img]cool.gif[/img]
elpatricio, when Tony died in the recovery room after a routine gall bladder operation, MD did a fantastic tribute issue which reprinted a lot of his old interviews, pictures and charts. Should be available as a 1997 back issue.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 14, 2005 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Five Eight ]</font>
I have the Talking Drums Tony tribute. I want to scan it and make PDFs, just haven't had the time.
Keep an eye out, I have a bunch of those mags, that was a great magazine.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I saw him at Manchester's Craftsman's Guild in PGH and that frickin 15" crash he has right in front of him was taking some SERIOUS abuse. He was just nailing the shit out of that thing.Quote:
And I might add he was heaviest hitter as well---very LOUD---incredible!
Most incredible drumming performance I have ever seen. I think he was in a mood that night.
I got to see him three nights in a row in early 1987. I was the first one in the club every night and sat five feet away from his hi-hat side all three nights. It was thrilling to be able to see how he played all those licks I'd been listening to for years and wondering, "Huh!" We'd talk before the shows and he was always cool.
But he raided my Tony Williams scrapbook bigtime: "Can I have this? Lemme have that!"
It was tantamount to Jessica Alba asking you to handcuff her: how can you say no? [img]confused.gif[/img]
Awesome picture, man on the VSOP live under the sky tony pushes all the band memebers to amazing levels, his level of agression, passion and the way he has of elevating a soloists solo is just amazing!
There is one point in the song domo where the same phrase is being played by the trumpet i think it is and after the 3 or 4th time tony starts just to blushda underneath it and also herbie takes it to another level and its just insane! Plus you can hear a bit of 10,000+ crowd screaming!!!
VSOP is great but if you can hook up with 1965's LIVE AT THE PLUGGED NICKEL CDs with Miles you'll think you witnessed the Creation. [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 14, 2005 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Five Eight ]</font>
I just read some reviews on amazon and it sounds good!
Damn pricey though, especially for a student! but then it is a box set of 8 cds!
i'll def add it to my list of to get cds.
Sorry i've been rambling about the VSOP and it may not be the greatest tony recording but its the only i've heard!
There should be an abbreviated Plugged Nickel set that isn't so cost prohibitive and how many versions of So What can you listen to anyway?
The Four & More show was recorded in February 1964 and the Plugged Nickel gigs in December 1965. There's a world of difference in the tempos and Wayne Shorter had replaced Gorge Coleman on tenor by then.
If you can't get the Nickle set get Four & More. Guaranteed to blow your hair out behind you and inflict spasmodic jaw-dropping. [img]graemlins/party.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 14, 2005 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Five Eight ]</font>
Sadly, I only got to see Tony live on one occasion with VSOP. Ever since, I have been searching for any and all DVDs with Tony. I haven't much luck so far, but I continue to search. Tony is my favourite of all time. I used to have his name silk screened on an old denim jacket when I was 18 (back in '81) - right on the shoulder. Most folks thought it was my name. I used to play with his signature Gretsch sticks too.
Everytime I see or use a black-dot head, or hear or play a wide open flam, I think of Tony.
I got a couple things on ebay. There's a laser disc of the TW Quartet in NYC that may or may not be on DVD by now. Also I got a homemade DVD of Tony playing some hip rock stuff with Jan Hammer and two others, but the audio is two seconds behind the video. It sucks to watch but I blast it while I'm at the computer or in the kitchen. It still sounds great. He's hitting so hard it could've been Bonzo on the drums.
The Village Vanguard wouldn't book him because he played so loud. [img]wink.gif[/img]