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Tasty [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Anyone familiar with Benny Greb? That dude sounds good!
I don't want to say anything against my own people, but I have the feeling, that all the guys becoming popular from the germanspeakiing parts of Europe do all pretty much the same? Of course, it's on a very high technical level, but I only see a lot of practice in that stuff, not a lot of playing with other musicians. After seeing the stuff ( the 100th time...) I think : " Wow, that's some fast hand-foot patterns", but not " wow, tha was a incredible touching solo".
What's funny with the new videos is, that they now all try to show that they can also play grooves in between their solo stuff.
If you compare ( which I know you should not do...) their solos with solos by Tony Williams, Vinnie, Steve or DeJohnette, I feel that the soul, the balls and the musicianship are a little bit missing there.
This should not be a post saying, all these guys suck. They are great in what they do. I just think there is nothing new or interesting said.
I know they are all still pretty young compared to the old cats, so there still a lot of way to go , but just compare it to Vinnie or Bozzio stuff with Zappa (for example : Shut Up and Play Your Guitar 1,2&3) when they were in their twenties.
Hmm. I'm amazed by the Benny Greb vid. That track is awesome, and his playing was great. Solo a little... chopsy, but the grooves were up there definitely. I reckon we're a bit biased towards Vinnie on this forum, though. He is my favourite drummer, but i dont think he's the ONLY guy who can do the stuff he does. And the Zappa stuff he did was cool, but i can't say it really touched my heart much (but that's not really Zappa's style). But these germans do do quite a lot of the old hand-foot patterns. I reckon if they played less, it would be cooler. They play loads, and it does gt on my nerves after a while.
On another note, those drums sound WICKED! How do they get such a massive snare sound! That's gonna be driving me crazy!!!
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 18, 2005 11:54 AM: Message edited by: LDGuy ]</font>
hi fellas!
i've read your post about the "german" guys ;-)
when you talk about the music of benny greb think of the track he plays along to. all sounds you hear are sung by benny himself exept the guitar solo. its a composition of benny, a tune from his new CD "grebfruit".
you can check our the "making of video" on his website. www.bennygreb.com
all the best rudi
Wow! Benny Greb grooves _hard_! I really like his playing, but I must agree with LDGuy on his solo - a little too chop'ish...
Definitely great playing by BG though! [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
I really like the track that Benny Grebb plays in the Meinl Festival, and his "CD making of " is lovely:
http://www.bennygreb.de/BennyTrailer.mov
What I really don?t understand-like is Thomas Lang playing in Michael Jackson?s track in the 3 times I have seen him playing to this song recently (via internet).
- Chops: 1.000.000
- Grace/Taste: 0,0
An as always is a personal opinion.
Bye.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 18, 2005 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Juan Expo ]</font>
Benny Greb will be playing the Montreal Drum Fest in November.
November 13. !!!
http://www.montrealdrumfest.com
Also check out several clinics in Ontario, Canada following Drum Fest.
Benny can groove. Play alot of insturments. And groove..!
Well he's not a new vinnie but I enjoyed him for something new. The solo was kinda "over the top" for the song but he did this at a drum fest right?
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 18, 2005 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Kurt R ]</font>
I thought Benny's playing was great. I love his feel. Solo is kind of a chop-fest, but that's ok. Remember the context of the video.
Actually, his playing reminds me of our own Derek DeField!
Danny
I dont't think, it's very useful,
to classify a drummer from germany first as a drummer from germany.
so, how sounds a drummer from denmark or from german east ?
ore are there no differences between a drummer from germany east and germany west
and how about the bavarian drummers ?
are these bavarian drummers 100 % german.
and how big are the balls of a dutch drummer ?
is a dutch drummer perhaps 40 % german because off the similar language ?
and I can find on meinl only two german speaking drummers.
Greb and Lang.
some like lang, some not. o.k.
sometimes before, I liked lang.
today, he goes on my nerves.
but benny greb plays in my oppinion very tasteful.
it would be very interesting for me, if you could explain to me,
in what case they do all pretty much the same.
for me, they are very different, except the case,
that both play on cymbals und toms.
another wellkown drummer is marco minneman.
you really think, he does pretty much the same ?
it's o.k, to say, I don't like drummer xy.
but it's not o.k., to speak about the "GERMAN" style.
I never heard from the GERMAN style.
what is the german style ? I only heard from the german grip.
is the german style 40 % simular to the dutch style or what ?
Am I playing the german style ?
but what about my american relatives ?
what kind of a druimmer is a turkish drummer, who is GERMAN citican
and lives here since his birth ?
today, we all get influenced by so many things in the WORLD,
that it sounds really not very nice, to hear such things especially from a german.
ore a you now an american, because you left germany three years before ?
your GERMAN style went away ?
Hardy Fischoetter is a great musician from K?ln !!!
Great drummer, I like him a lot !!!
Peace.
Another great drummer is not exactly from germany but from Austria. Bernie G. is playing every monday at the Baked Potato.
You guys should check out www.bernie-g.com . There a re some Videos of him playing.
Peace
Guys,
Lemme tell ya, Benny is the real deal...
I spent the weekend with him at Drummer Live. I've got to tell you, I've seen almost every drummer you care to name in one context or another. Forgive me if I am a little unaffected by seeing anything 'new' anymore.
Benny Greb made me really excited to be playing drums again. His mindset, personality, not to mention his playing is next level. That song is all really groove based (apart from the solo) and this guy is only like 22ish... He's going to be a monster for all the right reasons, not just technique...
MP
Hi Schreck, I have the answer to at least one of your questions since I am Dutch. But our language is not really similar. If so, I would have been better at it at school [img]wink.gif[/img] But there are similarities. <s>In the Netherlands we all wear wooden shoes, live in windmills and put our finger in the dyke whether she likes it or not.</s>
Eh, what I would like to say is that I agree with you although Oddtime has a point, but it has nothing to do with German drummers. Virgil doesn't speak German [img]cool.gif[/img]
It is amazing what these drummers do with speed, endurance, independance etc but I don't feel it in my Dutch balls. Although I think Benny is different, he can play music. [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 19, 2005 10:54 AM: Message edited by: JPtheDrummer ]</font>
There definately seems to be something in the water over in mailland Europe that breeds these <s>freaks</s> fast players... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
MP
Wow, I did not mean, that Vinnie is the only great drummer or that the german guys can't play drums. I am actually german myself. Just moved to the U.S. 3 years ago.
I know that Benny is a really good drummer ( damn, and he is my age...)and a very nice guy , too. I just think that their way of soloing is pretty similar.
I have the feeling that we germans are more focusing on chops than tasty playing. Benny is doing cool stuff, but I see him going a little bit too much towards Marco Minnemann. Especially when you check out the early stuff.
Nothing really blows me away there.
Marco also writes all his music and plays almost all instruments. I really like it but it is still lacking that inteaction between the instruments because it is just all 100% written out and talking to yourself is just a little bit onesided...
People like Horacio or Keith Karloc (damn, can't remeber how to spell his last name...), are "younger" guys I really love and I get really excited to see play live. The "german style" is for me really just more "drumming" than "music". Maybe you can say I am ignorant but that is just how I feel.
K, talk you guys tomorrow some more. Have to go...
Later,
Oddtime
I for one believe you need a little bit of Americana in your blood to really play a phat laid back pocket, and to really now the vocabulary on american music. English bands like the Stones and Beatles emersed themselves in American music before being able to represent. European drummers can practice licks and double bass until they're blue in face, I have never heard one who's feel is right to me. Like Adam Nussbaum said in MD years ago, you can count the amount of Euro drummers who can swing on one hand.
I need a drummer to hit me in the heart. Very few drummers do that period, and in american groove music, they're all american. Just like in afro-cuban music, they're all cuban. That's just my take on it. It's not impossible, and I'm sure there are some groovin euro drummers, I just don't know of any. I remember one year I saw Incognito and I was expecting some big time pocket. I like some of their recordings. Well, live the drummer was all over the place. Was Tony Thompson english? He had a nice groove. I remember Mel Gaynor sounded great on record too, but I saw him live and it was anything but steady. I suppose I'm picky.
It seems that Meinl is coming along as a cymbal maker. Are these cymbals any good? I've always been into the top 3, Z,S and P.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 19, 2005 05:40 PM: Message edited by: PortJazz ]</font>
I like Benny. He's an average player by my standards. I downloaded some vids from his site. He likes playing singles between his limbs. He played a fake latin groove with his hands that was rushind dramatically. And some OK brush work. To me Benny sounds like a great student. Someone with much potential. I don't understand what Groovemiester is talking about. Benny's pocket is not easy going and natural feeling. It's nice, but no better than any other good drummer.Remember what the words pocket and groove mean? Deep, laid back, below the surface. His feel does not posses those qualities. Maybe it will in the future. His solo did not posses any creative pharasing nor did it have any polyrhythmic or over the bar line phrases. I don't get the Vinnie comparison. What, the flams? everyone plays those. Tom Brechtline was playing Blushda fills while Vinnie was still a Berklee student. Pick up Tap Step by Chick. It all comes via tony anyway. Benny played a lot simple four note groupings using dble pedal. Very basic stuff. He also had about -1% usage of dynamics. What's the big deal here? Nothing new nothing over the edge. Basic great drumming.
I will keep my eye on this guy. To his credit though, I'd rather listen to Benny than Thomas Lang. Benny is going for more music.
Oh and forgive me for asking, but do Benny and Johnny Rabb and some of the other clinic geeks do any gigs? Who does Benny tour and record with???
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 19, 2005 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]</font>
Your Pocket is the most personal expression on a Drum-set. It's not something ( at least not when you're well-established) you can change, it's a true reflection of who you are as a person combined with your qualities as a musician as a whole.
I would also say, that I know Danish up-comming drummers with a more honest pocket than the one Benny is showing us there. But that's Benny, he's choosen to have that pocket, like it or not. Flabo, you put it great. he's a great Student and a hard working one too! I again think his mind and dedication to his instrument again is reflected in his Groove - Perfect, too Perfect. He would be a Protools assistants best friend. He wouldn't need to Cut anything. it would be so Metronomical Tight that you won't need to do anything.
Take Wolfgang Haffner. I love this guys groove. So Tasty, he's a totally different person if you ask me, and also a person from a different generation of course. I've seen that "Samba"'ish clip too and if that's Benny's Samba, then that's Benny's Samba. It's a question of Taste and how you relate to it. I don't personaly like it either, and I don't think many producers would dig it for a record too. He seems very skilled. I find it hard to categorize him, in an "OK" box or something like that, I like his Phrasings in a Live situation, but again. It's too controlled for my taste, I think to myself. When is this guy gonna take chances, I'm getting bored watching him. Same thing about that Bernie G guy If that's the guy who did some Big Band play-along stuff back when he was 19. Again, and this is not to be very racial focused, but I think Rationalism is a word you can put on most (!) german drummers. Their very focused on their exercises and to fulfill them in a confident manner And I have the outmost respect for that. I see the opposite here in Denmark. We don't have any serious technical monsters here, we do however have a bunch of interesting guys who plays a groove with an honesty I have trouble finding in an American drummer (expression is the big deal here, especially in Jazz, and I think it's getting out of hand, but that's how it is at the moment). It's again a personal and cultural thing, from my point of view.
I Don't know about Sweden... Those Swedes are just maniacs, they Swing like no other and have technical facility like the Germans. It must be some secret hidden within all that SNUS their putting up in their mouth [img]smile.gif[/img]
Hey , PortJazz do you really want to hear a euro drummer with a huge pocket... You shoud check our Roger Biwandu out... Can anyone post again some of the clips roger post some time ago?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">simply [img]graemlins/shhh.gif[/img]Quote:
you can count the amount of Euro drummers who can swing on one hand.
BTW, everyday i agree more with Flarobstix! [img]wink.gif[/img] Well put, bro.
ok, after thinking about that the last night and this morning, I think I finally know what bothers me. It's not the generally 'playing' . It is the drum-clinic-solo-circusattraction-thing. I think it's when they have to show off their chops, that I get bored. I think it's the whole thing about drum-shows, that bores me. Benny is definitely a great drummer and I like what he s doing on his solo CD. I just hope he will not end up like a lot of these "chop-masters" and is only doing the circus... I mean.. clinic-thing. Many of these guys don't play on records or do a lot of shows, because noone needs "15-tuplets with one foot, 7tuplets with the other and 4 against 5 in the hands against a 11 bar phrase in 23/16 at tempo 200" ( This is an EXAGGERATION!!). And there are just guys like Gadd or J.R. who just lay it down and after 1 hour they are done and the music has everything drummingwise it needs to have. Benny definitely has the groove and his own sound will probably also develope, but there are a lot of others
who don't have that deep of a pocket and sound like anyone else and they only get recognition for beeing fast or that they can 15 over 11 over 4 over 6. I just think it leads people on the wrong way. Th start to think that you only have to spend 12 hours in the practice room and try to learn stuff as complicated and as possible and play it as fast as humanly possible und you will be a famous drummer.
hm, I can do what I want, but I guess I still sound like someone who is very ignorant, don't I?
Well, I guess the conclusion is, that this proof that drumming is an Artform and you can't really debate about art , because for everyone it's something different.
Another thing .
I'm sorry Schreck! I did not mean to offend anybody with calling it the "german-drumming" . It was more sarkasm than anything else.
I just called it that, because there are more german/austrian drummers on the clinic-circus popular today than from other countries (besides maybe the US) . Ok, there is Virgil, Mangini and some others, but right now Marco, Tom, and now Benny are 3 top guys who appear at these drum-fests all over the world. And they are THE ONLY guys from germany with international fame. Do you know any german guy who is popular for anything else, like just having a pocket like Porcaro or Gadd and eing on a lot of records or touring the world with some artist?
The only guy I know who is a little known outside of germany and is not know for extreme speed and chops is Wolfgang Haffner. He is not only recording in germany but also in L.A. and N.Y. .
I am very thankfull for guys like Virgil, Tom and company to show me what is physical possible with drums, but I would not buy 10 CD s with that stuff, would you?
If any german is offended with my posts, I am truly sorry.
If you would know me you would see that I only say harsh things like that to get attention for something or try to get someone to think abot something (it worked, didn't it?) .
Han Bennink (Sonny Rollins, Ben Webster, Wes Montgomery, Johnny Griffin, Eric Dolphy and Dexter Gord), John Engels (Stan Getz), Bruno Castelucci (Art Farmer, Benny Carter, Joe Pass and Johnny Griffin) and Pierre Courbois (Kenny Drew, Jean-Luc Ponty, Stan Getz and Johnny Griffin) to name a few. And there are more but I still agree with you Flarobstix. Because in Europe we don't have an original jazz or blues culture.
Omar Hakim said it already on the BR tape, everybody can learn paradiddles and stuff but that doesn't make you a good drummer, oooch talking about groove. Bad-ass player.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Man, I'd love to hear you play! Average? What standards do you have?! You sure do talk a good fight, as they say...Quote:
Originally posted by Flarobstix:
I like Benny. He's an average player by my standards
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was exactly my point. Benny is only 21. He has massive potential!!!Quote:
Originally posted by Flarobstix:
His feel does not posses those qualities. Maybe it will in the future.
MP
Groove, after reading the posts I didn't see anyone mention their own playing compared to Benny's. I do know that even in the LA scene the guy's good, but thats about it. Flarob lives in nyc and I live in LA. Other drummers in those areas will tell you as well. There are tons of "no names" playing like that here. Drummers that teach at LAMA and PIT that no one in the mainstream knows.
I don't care how old someone is, and I can't see into the future, so I won't give someone credit for being young and playing great. I though Tony Royster would be the next Vinnie or Dennis, and in my opinion, although he can play, I was very dissappointed by his progress.
You can love Benny if you want. That's you're own choice. It's also my choice to think he's an average player. Any above average great player has tours and major credits. I didn't see any on his site.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 23, 2005 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Paraflam ]</font>
I saw Benny at Drummer Live and he made me want go home and play drums. That's all I want in drummer. I thought he was great!!!
Sometimes when guys like this get criticised here I cant help but feel that there is the underlying motive of the poster to really try and blow some sunshine up their own ass. It's really ugly IMO.
Especially when people try and pull someone down over something as subjective as pocket and groove.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good point, Andy.Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Edwards:
[QB]I saw Benny at Drummer Live and he made me want go home and play drums. That's all I want in drummer. I thought he was great!!!
QB]
The better thing can happen to me when I listen/watch some video or audio samples of some drummer/musicians,specialy in internet, is that they cause some of the next effects over me:
- I see all the video or audio, from start to the end. And in this case I have already seen Benny?s video from Meinl (voices track) many times.
- My foot start taping.
- I want to go to practice or play drums.
- I search for more information about the drummer/musician.
- I save the file in some special place in my computer.
And a thing I don?t think when the musician/drummer touchs me in a good way, is compare him or his music to anything or ANYONE.
Some drummers that lately I have included in this group are Dicenso, Keith Karlock, Steve Hass and Benny Grebb (maybe I forgot someone) And don?t try to compare these names because I put them in the same sentence.
And for me no matter the credits or mega stars they tour with, THEY MAKE ME FEEL GOOD.
And I know there are MANY OTHERS around the world that we just don?t know yet, or maybe we?ll never know about them.
Bye.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 24, 2005 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Juan Expo ]</font>
Great posts Juan and Andy,
Benny's playing at Drummer Live (and hanging with the dude too) made me want to play better. He came up with stuff at that event that was new and fresh. As far as...
"Flarob lives in nyc and I live in LA. Other drummers in those areas will tell you as well. There are tons of "no names" playing like that here. Drummers that teach at LAMA and PIT that no one in the mainstream knows."
...is concerned, there are players here in London, even the sort that
don't go on to major tours or have great credits to their names, (you use this as a benchmark??) that are just incredible. Tom Skinner is a wonderful Jazzer, maybe one of the best in town, that is never in drum mags or on major tours...
Just like Andy and Juan said, Benny's drumming made me, and the rest of the audience (that gave him a standing ovation at 9.30am - a mean feat, especially for an audience of British drummers [img]wink.gif[/img] ) feel great about drums and drumming. That's what I look for in a drummer...
MP
Again we all have different Taste.
I've seen a live clip with Benny some weeks ago and turn in to see it a couple of times a week.
This guy is playing great, Man he's a year older than me - this guy has been practicing seriously hard!. He's a great drummer but is still A VERY young musician, if you want to put it that way. I see great technique in this guy, but a musical and tasteful understanding of making music together with other people IS something that will eventually come with this cat's potential.
I don't get this Play-along-a-clic-track measurement of up-comming drummers. I want to see these guys play music with others, I want to see how they make it comfortable and take responsability on initiative and so on and so on. That is what gives us Gigs, not the endless sportmanship/exhibition that makes young kids buy the products that are shown at the venue.
We should try to Tape some of the Local Jam-sessions we go to. I think that would be much more interesting to hear up-comming drummers play in those situations.
yes klemme, you make the most sense to me.
I enjoy this guys pocket. I understand what Rob is saying though.
I believe he's just saying, okay well I can trek down the street in NYC and see this level of performing at a jazz fusion bar. What's the big deal?
I happen to agree. This guy is great. But in my opinion, not note worthy at this time and not to the point where other average players like me myself can pick up valuable tips by watching him play. When I watch other young players like Carlock, Hass, and Hoenig at places like The 55 Bar, not only do they have that kind of technique and more, but they have what I like to call amazing musical placement. Where they improvise using the right fill at the right time. That's something I didn't see in Benny Greb. He was very generic sounding to me.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So you wouldn't watch or listen to him just for, you know, the simple enjoyment of it, then?Quote:
Originally posted by Groovesmitty:
This guy is great. But in my opinion, not note worthy at this time and not to the point where other average players like me myself can pick up valuable tips by watching him play.
Bingo, why can't you just sit down, listen and enjoy?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And remember all the clinics of Vinnie playing with a play-a-long-click. [img]tongue.gif[/img]Quote:
Remember the context of the video
It is maturity that creates our judgement but at the same time it is so mature that we forget we were once immature ourselves. [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img] [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/gulp.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So you wouldn't watch or listen to him just for, you know, the simple enjoyment of it, then?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOLQuote:
Originally posted by moosetication:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Groovesmitty:
This guy is great. But in my opinion, not note worthy at this time and not to the point where other average players like me myself can pick up valuable tips by watching him play.
That sums it all up. People can turn drumming into just this mad measurement tool where someone is not worth listening to because they are only 'quite good'(this is nuts to me)
I happen to think Benny Greb is a great drummer and he's doing a lot of different interesting things. But perhaps I think this coz I'm crap...
all i know is i want to hear flarbostix play!!!
I do actually agree with a lot of what he says - but he must be a great player by the way he shoots down some top players (not meaning benny)! :-)
here is a question - can you swing Flarbostix? im not taking the piss, i mean it. how hard do you swing?
I personally don't think that these guys (Flarob and Groovesmitty in this case) need to necessarily proove themselves by their playing.
People make fun of big name drummers all the time, like Travis Barker, Joey Jordison and Tre Cool to start off. You're putting your work in front of an audience. Especialy in the context of a clinic where you are promoting your own drumming skills, I don't think you can help it if someone judges you. I think I read someone calling John Mayer a clown on another thread... should this person prove he is better than him too? I don't think so. These players, by putting their selves out into the public are waiting to be judged. If people needed to be better than other people just to earn the right to critisize their music... well... thats crazy.
The problem here is this. Honestly. You could say the same thing in a less offensive way. I don't think it's that bad to say something negative about another player... but you gotta try to charge it with the positive as much as possible. I know like Flarob does weave in nice things about Benny. After all, he starts his comment with "I like Benny"... but as always, I think you should try to tone your attacks down a little. I enjoy and do agree with your posts alot of times. But havn't you noticed that most big fights around here are caused by your controversial posts? Seriously. Just learn to tone it down so people will have an easier time reading your posts man.
oh, oh, oh. I think something is missing here... What does it matter if Flarob is not even a drummer!? What does it matter if he can not swing? I don?t care why he says what he says, and i don?t really care if he?s rude or not. But -most of the time- he has something interesting to share.
I certainly don?t like the way Cher sings... but i CAN?T sing better than her... Does it matter? I just don?t like her, not because i?m better, just because music (as an art form) it?s all about emotions, and i can?t get emotion from her. Period.
So, please, stop asking Flarob to post a clip of his playing...it?s pointless.
BTW, I really enjoy listening to Benny... maybe as much as i enjoy listening Bisonnette?s solos.
Same kind of drummer, i think. [img]eek.gif[/img]
I wouldnt call benny or any of the guys that you can walk down to a jazz fusion bar and watch play at this level average either.
Drummers that have got to that stage have put in a lot of time and hardwork and are dedicated to their craft.
I try not to put anybody who is playing drums from what in my point of view is an honest place and who play with passion, specially if they are way "better" than me.
Plus, on a forum, i find that looking at the postives and negatives are what is best and not stating ones opinion as the positives or negatives as it tends to cause this kind duel that goes on here, to each his own, just don't share it on here if its going to insult or upset people.
I would be interested though in seeing some HODers back their talk with playing ability because really no one should be talking down peoples playing if it is of a higher level than their own, if there is even such a thing anyway,
Flarob i agree with you sometimes and you make some valid points, but i think that its the way you make it seem as if ur opinion is the law that ticks people off
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 25, 2005 12:47 PM: Message edited by: S.P ]</font>