Hihat dynamics?

Hi all

I've been taking a few classes with a great danish teacher lately. This week he wanted to check out how I was able to groove - and there was some serious Porcaro grooves in between.
He had a few comments, and one of them was regarding my hihat dynamics. It seems that I generally accentuate the notes of my snare and bass drum (meaning the fourths in a standard rock-beat), and not the 8ths in between.

I've been wondering about this but I realise that this is something I really can't seem to figure out.
It's my believe that the stiff and equally accented 8ths on the hihat doesn't work out well in most situations, but what approach should then be made? Do you guys have any thoughs on hihat dynamics in general?
I know Jeff Porcaro was really great at it, and I have his dvd where he discusses it too, but I don't know how to work on this.
I'll talk to my teacher about this again, but it would be great if you guys would share your experiences on the subject.

Best regards, Jonas

I believe Moeller technique help a lot for dynamics on hi hat, do you know this technique ?

Being able to control your hi-hat dynamics will go a long way in your being able to create different feelings and moods from a groove. It may help to just focus on your hands at first, and then perhaps only your hi-hat and bass drum.

Playing the hi-hat with equal dynamics (no accents) will make pattern feel entirely different from accenting on all quarter notes or on the eighth notes in between.

Thanks for your posts guys!

donu:> I know the Moeller tehcnique from Dave Weckl's How to develop technique - don't know if there's more to it than that?

dsop:> Yearh, I'm aware of the responsibilities of the hihat-pattern, but I would like some thoughs on coming up with patterns for different songs instead of my just doing RrRrRrRr, rRrRrRrR, rrrrrrrr etc. Not that they'er not great for a lot of things, but there seem to be some unknown area for me to go into here.

Okay, I guess it came out a little wrong at first. It's not that I'm not doing any dynamics on the hihat, but I would like to hear what approach you guys take on hihat dynamics in general. Is the accenting fourths on backbeat-heavy stuff completely out of question as my teacher made it sound like? Do you guys play "complex", varying patterns like Porcaro sometimes would?

Thanks!

Jonas

Rather than already looking at different accenting patterns, take a step back and consider a more basic approach. For example:

When playing a simple groove, use different parts of your stick to hit the hi-hat and you will be able to create a variety of different sounds i.e. using either the tip or the "neck" or "shoulder", whatever you call it.

Also: Consider the more frequent use of hi-hat openings. That could add some dynamics to your playing, if you haven't already looked into it. I don't really know how advanced you are, so this might not apply.

Lastly, I would recommend listening to some Tony Williams records or people like Stewart Copeland (if you want something a little more recent). This is a huge topic so keep exploring. Hope that helps.

Listening... listening to what other drummers are doing. Doing what the music calls for, that is what you do.

Simple as that [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 30, 2005 07:53 PM: Message edited by: matricks ]</font>

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Originally posted by Jonas Delfs:
I would like to hear what approach you guys take on hihat dynamics in general.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It really depends on the music and the moment. Work on the variations and technique and then let the music and your intuition dictate what to play.

Playing the hi-hat with a "lope" (i.e. a pattern where some notes are accented and others are somewhat ghosted) generally gives the groove a more sophisticated feel, IMO. Jeff talks about his in his video (and was obviously a master of the hi-hat in every way). Both Garibaldi and Weckl have been saying the same for years...that playing with a constant dynamic can give the time a stiff, amateurish feel. I saw Garibaldi in a clinic about 10 years ago, and he really frowned upon the idea of playing the hi-hat at a constant dynamic. Actually, he pretty much frowned upon everything, but I digress...

The accent does not necessarily need to be on the quarter note--it can be on the offbeat as well (check out Jeff's playing on Steely Dan's "FM" or Michael McDonald's "No Such Luck" for starters). While I don't think there's a magic formula, I think the keys to the hi-hat are experimenting with the "lope" and also the pattern itself ("1e+a", "1e+", "1+a", etc.) to find what best fits the music, as Jeff describes in his video.

Case in point: one of my favorite grooves ever involves a constant dynamic on the hi-hat. It's the outro of "Just the Two of Us." Gadd gradually builds the intensity, but he's just wailing very plain 8ths on the hat, grooving his ass off!

Phil Collins is also very good at wailing quarters on the hi-hat, and using a Moeller-style technique to get ghosted off-beat 8ths ("Against All Odds," for example).

BTW, "No Such Luck" is an excellent, yet overlooked tune on that album that features some absolutely brilliant, bad-ass playing by Jeff!

There's nothing wrong with accenting 1/4 notes on hi-hat with kick and snare. Was he saying that's all you do and you should have some variety?

I'm with Matricks. The music will tell you what to play.

An excellent way to work on dynamics on the hi-hat is to play along to some "smooth jazz" 80-88 bpm sixteenth notes on the hi-hat. There's a couple Earth Wind and Fire tunes that come to mind. "That's the Way of the World" and "Can't Hide Love". Better yet: "What you won't do for Love" by Bobby CAldwell. Get that 1/16 note feel happening and your hi-hat dynamics will take a major leap IMO. That groove is all about the hi-hat.

I would play along to some Bob Marley too. Very hi-hat oriented. Work on your "One Drop".

Try playing just hi-hat along to some different music and change your accents/patterns and see how it changes the feel. Listen to other drummers and their approach.

How long have you been playing and what styles of music do you play?

cjb has some very good ideas. Yes, focus on just some hi hat things and use the whole stick, tip shoulder, shank and play on all parts of the top cymbal as well (middle, edge, cup etc.). Also do some various open and closed things and use a variety of degrees of open cymbals. And don't forget to open on a downbeat. We get very hooked on opening on the upbeat that we forget the other possibilities. Also play some 8th or 16th rhythms and drop in a closed foot here and there as another timbral change. Add all this together and you have a basic hi hat trick bag to use when practicing other coordination things with the kick and snare.

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Originally posted by mja61:
.... Actually, he pretty much frowned upon everything, but I digress...

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Had to laugh!

[img]wink.gif[/img]

I don't know if any of you have ever seen Billy Ward play, but the dude has sick hi-hat technique. He plays it as much with the foot as with his hands.

He touches on it briefly in his wonderful DVD, but not nearly enough to do his ability on the cymbals any justice...

MP

Billy Ward is amazing. Check out his vid "Big Time"
if you get the chance - if nothing else than for the little vignettes woven inside .... The drumming-while-driving bit is great....

Its not just his hi hat technique, though - its everything. He does the same with the drums too.

I don't know what level you are at, but for an intermediate player, maybe watching John blackwell Jr.'s MD performace might help. Check out how -no matter what else he's doing - he keeps a strong quarter note pulse going through the song (and I mean STRONG) Funk, R+B, soul, etc is all about the quarter note pulse, with a big ole bomb on 1.

I wouldn't start with Copeland - unless you already have a firm understanding of the more basic styles then he might lead to some wrong conclusions. There are styles where just bashing is bueatiful - it can build tension, and if you step outside for even a 32nd note you lose it all ...

But yes, hi hat theory can make the groove very sophisticated. "Sophisticated" ride patterns usually incorporates the rhythmical framework (back beats, clave patterns, whatever) as well as adding "swing" to it.

A intermediate example is a stardard rhumba cascara pattern : it incorporates the clave
as well as what amounts to pick up notes to it.

So try to pick out the clave (whether it is a rhumba, 2+4, bossa, or what-have-you (in Blue Rondo a la Turk x-x-x-x-- is the clave) and simply let that stand out from the rest of the pattern. Thats all there is for 98% of everything that is listenable by non-musicians....

(BTW - check out Chapin's vid, Speed Power, Control + Endurance), and then check out Steve Smith's video "History of the US Beat" for some great Moeller stuff. )

Besides the players mentioned before (Porcaro, Ward, Tony, etc.) and some others (notably Weckl or Dennis Chambers) I would offer Carter Beauford's excellent, approachable examples of this. These are a good avenue to learning some options of moving around accents on the hi-hat and ride, instead of just a standard "straight" pulse. Some really tasty stuff on "Under the Table and Dreaming," especially "Sattelite" which I spent time learning with left and right hand leading (CB leads generally with left). Learning to play odd accents leading with either hand within the context of a groove was a great excercise for developing independence.

If you listen closely to the track, I think he actually plays straight 16ths and just accents the ones you hear. Regardless, this makes for a good exercise in putting accents in unusual places, and you can even make 6/8 exercies out of it:

R= accent
r= non-accent/ghost
S=Snare
.=rest

rrRrrRSrrRrR/
rrRrrRSrrRrr/
rrRrrRSrrRrR/
rrRrRRS....

Sometimes he accents the hh when hitting the snare as well, but I wanted to get the basic notation down with snare as a marker of groove; you can add the rest. Add the bass drum (usually on 1, 3+, and 6+) and you have a groove where the hihat functions fairly independently of the snare/bass but is having a conversation of sorts with them. Then, switch hands and make it work with your other hand.

That album has a lot great examples of his hh approach--little offbeat accents and hi-hat openings. "What Would You Say" and "Warehouse" are excellent 4/4 examples of this.

I hope this helps. Cheers.

Thanks a lot for some great posts!
I've become a lot more aware of different hihat feels and have started working on it. Fortuneatly I've also become aware of that I'm actually doing more dynamics on the hihat than I thought I was [img]smile.gif[/img] It's interessting to think about this on a more intellectual level, and I've already become a better player, I think [img]wink.gif[/img]

To those of you who ask - I'm 20 years old and have been playing a little since I was pretty young, and somewhat seriously for about 4 years. I play almost every genre I get the chance to, but primarily pop, rock, funk stuff.

One question: when playing one-handed 16s on the hihat like in Toto's Georgy Porgy, the Earth, Wind & Fire tunes cjbdrm talks about, etc. - what technique aproach whould then be made? It seems to me that Porcaro uses only wrist and fingers, but I have difficulties getting a flow that way - how would you do?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jonas Delfs:
One question: when playing one-handed 16s on the hihat like in Toto's Georgy Porgy, the Earth, Wind & Fire tunes cjbdrm talks about, etc. - what technique aproach whould then be made? It seems to me that Porcaro uses only wrist and fingers, but I have difficulties getting a flow that way - how would you do?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I had same problem, the only solution i know is to practice slowly a Lot, until you can get faster and faster naturally
[img]wink.gif[/img]

So you wouldn't use the Moeller technique in this case? (Moeller is about using the forarm a little too, to make multiple strokes out of one hand-position, right?)

Wow, I just found this web site and I love this discussion on 16th note high hat technique.

I have been working on this lately and like everybody else find it difficult to develop speed (been playing for 37 years).

Aside from Jeff P. another great drummer I have discovered who has developed this technique to another level that you might be interested in seeing & listening to is Zoro. Check out his video The Commandments of R & B Drumming - The Funk Era. He goes into depth on the subject and also has some favorite players he emulates.

Having stated that a severely over looked drummer that has this technique down (I think he gives Jeff a run for the money) is Steve ?Grizzly? Nisbett the former drummer in Steel Pulse. This guy is a monster. If you don?t own Steel Pulse the Rastafari Centenial - Live in Paris CD go out and buy it today! Grizzlys playing and drum sound is superb. He has the 16th note thing down as well as beat displacement. Also check has his successer in Steel Pulse, Conrad Kelly on the Living Legacy album (buy both CD?s you won?t be sorry). I am willing to bet that they make your top 25 best drummers of all time list. That is how impressed I am of these guys.

Playing along to the Live in Paris CD has been the best thing for me to develop the 16th note HH thing. Also listen to the CD?s on a great sound system. They even have a song named Sound System.

nbps let me commend you on being new to the forum and not posting a new topic that says OMG HI I'M NEW just to introduce yourself. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
nbps let me commend you on being new to the forum and not posting a new topic that says OMG HI I'M NEW just to introduce yourself. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then again, there's nothing I hate more when new members jump in the middle of a discussion without introducing themselves beforehand [img]wink.gif[/img]

Hi Steve,

I dig your web site.

Hi Suspiria,

What is the protocol to introduce myself? What would you like to know about me? It didn't seem to me that I was out of line, just giving some advice from my personal experience. We are all in the same boat, right!

Geez, I don't want any attitude problems from members.

Anyway, did anybody check out the Steel Pulse CD's. What do you think about Grizzly & Conrad's playing?

Most drummers who aren't familiar with Moeller tech usually stumble upon a form of it while trying to play faster 8ths and 16ths on the hi hat. It's something I picked up when I was about 12 and never knew what it was at the time. I began to incorporate it into other things I learned like the double shuffle and other static or ostinato type patterns elsewhere on the kit.

There's a section on Peter Erskine's "Everything is Timekeeping" vol 1 vid where he discusses how what you play on hi hat can change the whole character of a time feel. He plays a simple HH SD BD thing and demonstrates a variety of different ways to approach the hi hat over the same kick-snare patterns. This is a great study on how to come up with a part to fit the mood and character of the tune. This doesn't get into a lot of how to technical stuff but shows a process for making wise musical choices. I highly recommend this one.

Hey nbps
You probably did the best intro by making others, like myself, think about a player like Steel Pulse's Steve ?Grizzly? Nisbett!

Steve has some issues with repeated threads and intro threads...at least he's consistent with everyone...just call him Big Daddy! [img]wink.gif[/img]

Jump right in drumbro...when the boys are in town, there are no rules!

Back to topic...
Got to mention Floyd Sneed of 3 Dog Night for tasty hat dynamics. He makes those tunes come alive! Also, can't believe no mention of Level 42's Phil Gould. Also x2...Listen to Jeff rip it up on M McDonald's Lonely Talk off; Take It To Heart...this is a groove masterpiece. Jeff plays a nasty hat pattern that is his most complex I've heard him record. Landau lays down a killer guitar track w/Abe Sr on bass. Mean stuff!

Lastly, when I play a hat pattern, I find it difficult to appreciate the nuances and dynamics with my ear, when I'm playing. It isn't until I record myself that I can hear the subtle difference I want. In fact, currently, I hate my hat sound live in my practice room and have always disliked the sound and feel of the instrument. When I record myself, it's a different story.

It's like Dave's early video when he plays a fusion groove and gives the example of being in a club, THINKING his dynamics are in place and then he gets back to the hotel room and they are all over the place. (Dave then plays the groove like it really sounded verse what he THOUGHT it sounded like to illustrate)

Oh...Hey nbps
No place to private message you, but I'd like to hear; Rastafari Centennial: Live in Paris...wanna trade/ share? Email me: [email protected] I have a Live Level 42 with Phil you might like.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 11, 2005 03:42 PM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

Phil with Level 42 is another great example of hihat dynamics.

Going back to the one handed 16th note Jeff thing. I actually asked Russ Miller about his technique since he has to do a lot of this for the Grover Washington Jr. gig. He said it's basically Moeller with 1/2 wrist motion. That seems to work for him.

That being said, IMHO, the thing that makes Jeff's version sound so good is that he is NOT using any dynamics for the 16th notes. Just laying down a silky smooth canvas so he can put the deepin the pocket snare on 2 & 4 and make it groove with his incredible kick placement.

Danny

I agree LA D...Jeff IMO is NOT using a Moeller type technique. Moller gives you an uneven accent, but it is much easier to play. I play it like Jeff and because of his influence and being ignorant of Moller type techniques years ago, I just developed it over time. I can now play it with a Moller type technique stated by Russ Miller above--it is much easier for me and I can play it like this all day, but it is NOT as smooth and silky. Again, the benefit of taping myself reveals this clearly.

Jeff's video is a great visual for this. I recall Jim Keltner commenting in MD's 10 Year tribute issue to Jeff's passing that he never saw the instructional video Jeff made and couldn't believe the precision of his playing and what little wasted motion he had.

mmm wasted motion mmm.

Very true though PP. Why expend any more effort physically than is really necessary?