I've got Fusion-Fatigue

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November 2nd, 2005, 08:58 PM
djmuskateer

There was a time a few years ago where I couldn't imagine getting enough Vinnie stuff. But I've got enough of the Jazz-Fusion stuff now (by which I mean Karizma etc.)- unlike a lot of people on here I don't find it at all inspirational, and all much of a muchness. It just seems to be an outlet for talented musicians to blow (albeit very tastefully for the most part), and that doesn't always lead to music all that fulfilling (for my taste). Also I REALLY dislike keyboard solos with horrible brass sounds and basically anything David Garfield typifies.

I really enjoy the other stuff where its not like that: Warren Cuccurollo (rock!), Live Sting (perfect), Jon Beasley (really jazzy and sometimes VERY funky), Randy Waldman (a real piano!), Jing Chi (rock!), Queen of the Damned (he can do anything!) Soundtrack etc. In these, because its more solid, the moments of genius shine more clearly and impressively. And if there's keyboard solos they sound like pianos or rhodes, not 80s brass.

I love his playing on anything, pretty much, but I don't really listen to my Karizma, Abe Laboriel etc @ Baked Potato, Pattitucci, Alan Holdsworth more than once in a blue moon - I just don't enjoy the music enough.

Anyone esle have fusion-fatigue?
November 2nd, 2005, 09:08 PM
LDGuy

You know, i've never really liked Karizma. I've got a load of there stuff, but it's never really... struck a chord with me. I like the funkier side of fusion myself - Herbie Hancock, Grover Washington, Zawinul's stuff etc. Vinnie's playing is great, dont get me wrong, but i just prefer him on clear cut stuff like the Allan Holdsworth stuff he did or Sting, or even Zappa. Plus, I'm really getting back into Jazzy weirdness now anyway. I listened to Bitches Brew ALL THE WAY THROUGH the other day and it really was great to do. I think musical tastes to fluctuate and change - it's the healthy part of being a listening musician.
November 2nd, 2005, 09:41 PM
got_a_matchgrip

I wasn't going to respond to this topic either, but i just couldn't resist...

You mean, there's actually other musicians on that Karizma shtuff? [img]wink.gif[/img] I jest...

Quote:

Plus, I'm really getting back into Jazzy weirdness now anyway

UH-ohhh, better be very careful, there... [img]wink.gif[/img]

But seriously; nothing wrong w Bitches Brew though.

Best to seperate the "blowin'" from the "tasty, musical," understand it, & leave it at that. [Sometimes we get "lucky" & they can be one in the same.]

Those blowing fusion discs are just there for indulgence-enjoyment for those who will...& to keep the egos out there in the real world in check... ;-P

Actually, i haven't listened to any *name incredible OTT musician/band/player here* such as much of that referred VC, DW, or VD stuff for about 2, 3 months now. I'd OD'd on it.
Normal.

But if i want the heavy fix, it's there.

Just remember - they're not a toy...to some peeps it's like a shot of *name a substance here* [sounds like you guys are on the downswing]..."use discretion if desired." ;-]

[ November 02, 2005 05:45 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]
November 2nd, 2005, 09:51 PM
Shawn40

Hi Ned,

I know what you mean Man, but in same time nobody force you to listen this music...
And why alway assimilate Vinnie with the fusion's music ?
Yeah he sure does a lot of sessions for this music, but he does so much stuff too...

I'm with you too about the band Jazz Ministry, they are some great musicians between my favorits, even some pure music legend, but I alway thought that the music that they play is very boring with some theme very poor...
But Vinnie is alway on top !!!

Again, there is so much music to listen, classic, african, arabic, jazz, pop, rock, electro...

I think that we might listen the music not only by the drumming side, I think that it's one of the key for us drummer for to become better musician/drummer.

Peace.
November 2nd, 2005, 09:51 PM
LDGuy

[Homer S.]Mmmmmm... Jazzy Weirdness... Art Ensemble of Chicago... Ahhh... Ornette Coleman... Mmmmm... Tord Gustavsen Trio...[/Homer]

[ November 02, 2005 05:51 PM: Message edited by: LDGuy ]
November 2nd, 2005, 10:15 PM
Riddim

I think this means you are maturing as a musician.

Great playing is wonderful. Great music is even more so.

A good composition will stand by itself -- it'll virtually play itself. Consider the writing of Wayne Shorter, Milton Nascimento, Dori Caymmi, Gershwin, Etienne M'Bappe, Jack Bruce, Herbie Hancock, Billy Stray Horn, or Joe Zawinul -- many of their tunes sound good as they are. They don't require virtuosity to get over. That's not to say that sensitive, musical virtuosi can't take them interesting places, just that the tunes are not dependent upon the skill of the players to get over.

I appreciate craft as well as anyone, but craft by itself doesn't nourish. Otherwise, we'd all be inspired by jingles and cartoon music, many of which are very hard to play. But music needs more than difficulty of execution to be rewarding.
November 2nd, 2005, 10:29 PM
troutbrooke

David Garfield OR Greg Mathieson = bad composition and/or clich? ridden solos with very 'tired' sounding key patches.

Just my opinion....

Jan Hammer all the way!
November 2nd, 2005, 10:32 PM
piccupstix

Oddly enough, I've been inspired by lots of jingles and toons - but I know what you're saying.
Some music will get my attention if I can see it happening, via vid, or (better yet) live. It could even put a special "stamp" on something forever in my mind. It's possible I might hear something in the confines of home and not quite get tapped by the juices of inspiration, unless I have a visual of the actual music. It's not always the case, however.
November 2nd, 2005, 11:37 PM
elpatricio

Its funny you should bring this up today. I think we all have to go through cycles of liking certain types of music. For years I was only listening to fusion and jazz-funk type stuff then I started getting into straight ahead jazz heavily, and decided that I'd had enough of fusion, for the time being. For the last few months I've become obsessed with 60s post-bop, hard-bop, contemporary acoustic jazz, and I've only been practicing on my little 4-piece bebop kit with one ride cymbal. Then today I was on weckl's site checking out these videos of his band, and feeling stunned, and I decided that i've gotta get back into this, my fusion chops are getting lazy... so I set up my big 6 piece fusion kit with lots of cymbals since I won't be gigging it for a while. I intend to start listening to and practicing lots of fusion and funk and r&b orientated music for the next week or so and give the bebop a rest for a while.
I feel healthier already [img]smile.gif[/img]
November 3rd, 2005, 12:37 AM
Suspiria

Quote:

Originally posted by Riddim:
But music needs more than difficulty of execution to be rewarding.

Very true, very true. I can't listen to fusion all the time either. The same goes for prog rock actually. Sometimes the odd-time signatures and excessive amount of notes are not what I want. At the moment I am listening to a lot of old Toto material, plenty of latin stuff, clapton, bob marley, kansas, nine inch nails, the police...etc...the list goes on. Fusion can never touch me on an emotional level like that.
November 3rd, 2005, 01:32 AM
djmuskateer

Er, how do you guys quote on this board? I've never been able to find the quote button. So in the meantime, I cutted and pasted:

Rodge Quote

I know what you mean Man, but in same time nobody force you to listen this music...
And why alway assimilate Vinnie with the fusion's music ?
Yeah he sure does a lot of sessions for this music, but he does so much stuff too...

Hi Rodge - basically I asosciate Vinnie with this type of music because I don't buy it unless he's on it... I love the 70s Jazz-Fusion, and I love most jazz since and before then too, just not the current 'west-coast fusion' vibe. And I appreciate he does a lot of other stuff, I suppose I was wishing he did a greater percentage of other stuff versus fusion. And as for noboby forcing me... thats why I;m not listening to them!

I think part of the problem I have with Karizma etc is that it is an odd mixture of being a little bit insipid (in that it doesn't rock, but neither does it swing and its not always particularly funky [although Vinnie personally often embodies al three of those characteristics even if the songs don't so much]) but also very choppy and balls-out playing. And I love it when Vinnie goes for it, but you appreciate it more if its in the middle of some more contrasting groove playing. Its like if you saw a whole bunch of diamonds on the floor - after a while they'd all blend into each other and you wouldn't know where to look. But if you saw two or three diamonds among a bunch of, I dunno, breakfast cereal or something, they'd stand out more and perhaps have more value and excitement.

Oh dear. Just re-read that last bit - I'm sorry, I get all descriptive when I can't sleep...
November 3rd, 2005, 01:37 AM
Suspiria

muskateer, can you see the black quotation marks found after each quote? If you click that you will be able to reply to a certain post and quote any part of it you want. Hope that helps.

EDIT: Circled it in red for you. [img]wink.gif[/img]
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/8673/quote0gc.th.png

[ November 02, 2005 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Suspiria ]
November 3rd, 2005, 01:47 AM
spaceotter

Hey Ned,

Yep--go through fluctuations of this all the time. I'm on a fusion upswing at the moment after OD-ing on it through the 80s and early 90s. I put away my Chick Corea and Pattituci and Scofield CDs in 93 because I couldn't feel it anymore. Listening to many of my former favorite players actually made me feel...jumpy, kind of...well, edgy. Or, I kept thinking, "someone call me when (insert player name here) plays something new/gives up math rock for something more soulful/stops playing so many notes/has a mad mushroom trip on the top of Mt. Fuji and removes the musical chip on their shoulder for which they are clearly overcompensating." (No names, no flames.) So I got fascinated with some other stuff for a while--various electronic, world and hipster stuff, prog rock, pop, funk and soul. And focused on other interests besides drums. Fiction, poetry, writing, visual arts, dance, science, philosophy, business...it's all good. Whatever it takes to follow the magic and not bore yourself. There is more to life than fusion. Or drums, or even music. (Perhaps this is also a recipie for a dilletante...er..."renaissance guy"...aka amatuer. Who knows. Many of my best teachers in various areas have named obsession as a necessary ingredient to greatness/genius.)

I do believe you feed it back into your playing. Everything feeds everything on some basic level. Staying engaged is sometimes challenging in an overstimulating world, paradoxically enough. Everything is faster, more complex, more styles, more subdivisions, chop chop chop, more more more.

Maybe part of the solution is to pare down a bit. I did start turning to Zen and Taoist stuff after my fusion binge as fusion in its own way is an exercise in overload. I mean, how much Vinnie, Dave, Virg and Dennis can you listen to before your palate gets dulled, and you need a good cleanse, need to go a different direction for a while? Fusion is a rather rich diet. Lao Tzu (supposed author of the Tao Te Ching, though he may be an amalgam of other historical figures) advises each day taking something away, paring down, guarding the senses from overload, counteracting life's consistent tendency for ever more complexity. Becoming more sensitive to what's in front of you. After my tweekery fusion days (not literally drug-inspired, mind you) this was some good counsel.

Maybe you just need to change up, focus on what's essential for you. Makes perfect sense to me.

peace==otter
November 3rd, 2005, 01:59 AM
djmuskateer

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Suspiria:
[QB]muskateer, can you see the black quotation marks found after each quote? If you click that you will be able to reply to a certain post and quote any part of it you want. Hope that helps.

Wow! Thanks Suspiria, I wonder if this will work. Also, I like the fact that it was your own quote of your own quote that you showed me on, very post-modern...

Otter - I like the analogy, yes, the musical pallette does need to be cleansed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset about it (plenty to listen to in the meantime). I think its true that everything we, as drummers, listen to ultimately feeds back into our playing in some way. Perhaps I'm not devouring Vinnie recordings as I used to because my regular gig is in a genre (drum&bass) that his playing really can't influence me in. I started drumming becasue of Vinnie, over the ten-odd years since I've tried to apply something of his influence to everything I've done musically, but now I've really stripped down my drumming (quitting a couple of fun bands in different styles) I'm left playing about the one style I've never heard him do! (Apart from hinting at it on Hidden Treasures from Jinh Chi 3D.)
November 3rd, 2005, 02:00 AM
djmuskateer

Hmmm, still doesn't look like when the rest of you quote. I guess I'm just not cut out for quoting...
November 3rd, 2005, 02:45 AM
Suspiria

Quote:

Originally posted by muskateer:
Hmmm, still doesn't look like when the rest of you quote. I guess I'm just not cut out for quoting...

I wont shut up until you learn how to quote! [img]wink.gif[/img]
You nearly got it right, except you must have deleted the last part, that looks like this:

"[/QB][/QUOTE]" The "/" is a command used to show the end of something. So the phrase I put into quotation marks basically means: End of quoting in bold (QB) and end of quote(QUOTE).

It can't be that hard...
November 3rd, 2005, 12:05 PM
djmuskateer

Quote:

Originally posted by Suspiria:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by muskateer:
Hmmm, still doesn't look like when the rest of you quote. I guess I'm just not cut out for quoting...

I wont shut up until you learn how to quote! [img]wink.gif[/img]
You nearly got it right, except you must have deleted the last part...<hr /></blockquote>Its true I did delete the last part, but this time I've taken the dynamic step of leaving the last part and editing the post at the same time - surely the holy grail of quoting! if this doesn't work I'll be so embarassaed I'll have to stop disliking Virgil Donati and go and post on his board instead...

Here goes!
November 3rd, 2005, 12:07 PM
djmuskateer

Yes! Jurassic Park!
November 3rd, 2005, 06:04 PM
got_a_matchgrip

Good posts, esp Riddim's.

There's ALL kinds of music out there. Many diff styles AWA blends ["fusions"] of 2 or more. Even some of the popular music out there has been influenced over the years by differing stylistic genres. No news there to all of you, i'm sure.

Prince is a prime example of a pop artist that incorporates lots of funk, soul, RnB, blues, & some jazz into his tunes &/or live shows. I'm not concerned w his private life, his journey has appeared to be one of great egocentricity, but it is some his music [AWA musos] i'm referring to. Some of it i don't care for at all, but some of it i consider having great genre-crossing sensibilities within pop. Sting does a bit of this AW, altho stylistically, differing degrees than Prince, of course.

I realize i'm being a bit analytical & philosophical here, but i am not one of those that typecast something that has more notes, or "chops" as they say, as somehow being "less" musical - if anything, it is "more." [img]wink.gif[/img]
Having more notes does not mean "less musical" no more than a simple, simple pop tune or ballad is somehow lacking because it isn't "more involved." it's just differing aspects of music for differing personalities or moods.

I'm not concerned at all with taking the extreme sides of philosophies that pervade...those who pee & moan about the "chops" stuff, or the chops fans crying about how something is "too easy" or "simple." A tune doesn't have to have a quadragazillion notes to be viable, nor does a tune "s*ck" if it is simple, necessarily.

I just enjoy whatever i'm enjoying at the moment within the context of what it is, AWA my mood ATT...& nothing more. If one person likes chops heavy fusion, more power to them; if pop ballads, no big deal. I think I'm also a prime example of someone who's binged & purged on several different styles - pop, rock, etc, AWA fusion at any given time in the past...it's just a normal emotional-psyche process. If i listened to rip-your-head-off chopos all the time, i'd prob be one high-strung individual all the time. But sometimes, i'm in the [adrenalined] mood. [img]wink.gif[/img]

There's too many styles & too much music out there to enjoy, & let folks live & let live... [img]cool.gif[/img] Just don't force-feed me bubble-gum tooth-rot, commercial radio, or CnW in my face 365/24/7 & we'll be allright [no wars will occur]... [img]tongue.gif[/img]
November 3rd, 2005, 10:26 PM
peter b

Quote:

Originally posted by Suspiria:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Riddim:
But music needs more than difficulty of execution to be rewarding.

At the moment I am listening to a lot of old Toto material, plenty of latin stuff, clapton, bob marley, kansas, nine inch nails, the police...etc...the list goes on. Fusion can never touch me on an emotional level like that.<hr /></blockquote>yes.....you and hundreds of millions of other people. that is why 'POP' is king and the greatest 'fusion' musicians in the world can't get more than 200 people in a club. it's ALL emotion.
November 4th, 2005, 09:43 AM
Jean-Paul

I agree with Riddim and GAMG. When I started playing drums I was heavily into chops and fusion. I judged in a negative way recordings, live gigs and especially drummers on their non chop approach. When I first joined a wedding band I came to the conclusion (fast, haha) that nobody in this band nor their audience was looking for chops but for a solid groove. I had to change my approach. They gave me a bunch of records to check out, to get the feel of some styles. It changed my idea of music or better, I got back to "before drumming". After a while I was able to enjoy music itself again without listening to technique etc. I matured [img]wink.gif[/img] <s>Not really because my wife says she has three kids and I have only two as far as I know!</s>

I really like the example given of Prince and Sting, they sell out large stadiums and do their thing and "fusion" it with different styles. Not the elevator music kind of fusion like, forgive me, Special EFX etc. I am happy that I checked out all these recordings and that I am able to recognize all the styles, know (a little) about the basics and being able to play the basics. It is a start at least and from there it can evolve if I want or need to. But the chopfests are not grabbing my balls anymore constantly.

But removing these recordings from my (too small, too big according to my wife) CD wall, NO WAY! It is a part of who I am as a musician. It shaped me, and I still put the fusion / chops CD's in my CD player once in a while and enjoy it again. I even experience some of this music again after some years. Indeed, there's too much music to check out in one lifetime.

But IMHO I would never type POP as KING, it has more to do with MTV and the music industry. Jazz used to be the popular music with people dancing on it. Time changes, it's not always evolving. I think it is good that "jazz" musos bring out DVD's and get more in the picture. They deserve a wider range of people listening to them and the money of course. Why should we bring sand to the beach with all these "put-together-acts" by record companies?

To cut this very long (my first long) story short, you have this bag full of tricks, licks and knowlegde of the music, and your conclusion has made you a better drummer and musician, I am sure. And, if you need to, you are able to respond on the musical situation if it requires chops. I don't want to sound [img]graemlins/shhh.gif[/img] & [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img] but it gave me more work and more important more joy in listening to music.
November 4th, 2005, 08:40 PM
likedachuch

i think the only prescription is - MORE COWBELL! [img]wink.gif[/img]
November 4th, 2005, 09:05 PM
XNavyDrummer

Quote:

Originally posted by Da Chooch:
i think the only prescription is - MORE COWBELL! [img]wink.gif[/img]

Wow! This quote thing does work.

Thanks!
November 5th, 2005, 04:11 AM
got_a_matchgrip

What they said.

ZW & JP, good posts... [img]cool.gif[/img]

I really dig players who get together & as team players are not afraid to show some of their muscle [bodybuilders do this all day long at certain CA beaches; show off their hard work, that is [img]wink.gif[/img] ]...but i also dig some very simple tunes...both can send shivers up my spine, only in different ways.

As Rodge would effectually regard...
"Anyways, Peace...
...All right." [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]