Printable View
I've been practising a bit with this since yesterday as I feel more consistent with my backbeats this way. But a part of my hand is hurting now. Specifically, the bone at the very base of the index finger at the juncture of the webbed part between index and thumb. This picture isn't my hand (just a hand picture off the web) but I've arrowed the part. It feels a bit swollen now. I'm pretty sure my technique is fairly correct. So is this normal?
http://freespace.virgin.net/roman.five/hand.jpg
a couple of times when i have taken a long break from playing when i come back there is a little pain there for a day or so....i think its something you mustnt over do but also have to work thru....unless the pain is terrible of course but it shouldnt be.
Hey louie, as you gathered, I wasn't able to make the gig, had to go to my mums earlier this evening. How was it?
And thanks for that advice, I'm glad it's something that is fairly common then. I'll take it easy but I'm definitely happy to work through it if it's just a case of toughening up that area of my hand. My hands, like the rest of me, are pretty boney so perhaps I'm more prone to these things. Basically, it just feels a bit bruised when I touch it.
I don't know how ANY of you guys can play with that grip.... [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]
lol, yeah when i made the switch after playing matched for 2 years i felt pain, especially when playing with bands but after a while i just didnt get it anymore. I guess its just the hand getting used to the stick there
DSOP, I used to mess around with trad grip years ago, although I wasn't really doing it right. I have to relearn a load of things now( like practising my ghost note dynamics) as well as tilt my snare differently for rimshots. Yet already there is a feeling of familiarity and I feel pretty comfy with it. Plus it looks cool [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Hey Rudy,
my bone is painful as well when i use trad grip.Exact same spot!I feel better knowing i'm not the only one whose hand is painful.
My trad grip has greatly improved over the last months(been working on it for almost 2 years now) but i guess my technique still needs adjustment.
When i took a lesson with Mr Holmes,he told me that i had a tendency to burry the stick in order to get a real fatback which may responsible for the pain.
After intense thinking,i think it's very hard to get that same matched grip-fat bacbeat with trad.Vinnie's actually the only drummer i know,whose backbeat is so fat,consistent and loud.
I think we might be able to avoid the pain by being as loose as possible.If you watch Vinnie play,it's sometimes scary how loose his grip is.Not really something new,but def.sthg to focus on.I did and it shows very effective.
The looser,the better.
By the way,do trad. grip makes you play different??
It makes it for me.I tend to use more doubles(fast singles still sound sloppy when i play them) and it changes the way i approach the songs.
Hard to describe it with words but it sure makes me play with a different touch.No need to say i love it!! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
The Vinnie gig recently seeded on Dime gives you about an hour-long look at his grip. Addix is right in pointing out that his grip looks unbelievable loose. You'd think the stick will go flying any second, but it never does [img]wink.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey Louie, I believe I heard your name over at drummerworld.com? Apparently you kick ass for your age! (and also because you are damn good!) fair play to you!Quote:
Originally posted by palmerlouie:
a couple of times when i have taken a long break from playing when i come back there is a little pain there for a day or so....i think its something you mustnt over do but also have to work thru....unless the pain is terrible of course but it shouldnt be.
I'm pretty sure that pain is coming from gripping the stick too firmly in your trad grip fulcrum. Try to loosen up on your backbeats a bit (letting go slightly before impact)
Hey chris, nope, I'm not gripping it tight, it's simply sitting in the web of my hand and as my hand comes back my first 2 fingers come off the stick and then drop back onto the stick after I've hit.
Just switch to Matched Grip, I'm sure that'll ease your problem. [img]wink.gif[/img]
[img]cool.gif[/img]
comfort comfort comfort
I hear you steve, thanks. Yeah, I've been sitting here playing along to a frank mccomb track with just my left stick on... the bottom of an adidas trainer which has a nice amount of bounce and won't wake my neighbour upstairs [img]tongue.gif[/img]
It is coming naturally back to the start position pretty much so I'm avoiding letting it stay buried. Recording is the real test for me.
I'm gonna try and record myself tomorrow on my gig and see if it makes any difference. If it does then I'm sticking with it. If not, then.. I'm still sticking with it for a while. I certainly don't mind a bit of discomfort for now if it makes the big difference in the long run for my playing. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">On floor tom maybe but on snare or higt tom i'am not sure of that, i'am not a pro like you for sure but did you never had the Fact that ( on snare with good tension head or practice pad ) that the stick go back Faster when you just let the stick rebound rather then help the stick to go back ?Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
There's just not enough time in bewteen strokes to allow the stick to fully rebound.
You also have to remember that if you're playing rimshots on backbeats you won't get much help from physics like you would just hitting the head. Where's 90% of the LH strokes coming from?....backbeats. So I'm guessing that's where the pain is coming from. Here's where you need to be as relaxed and loose as you can possibly be, otherwise your hand not the stick, will be absorbing all of the impact vibration. Excessive, repetitive vibration is another of those overlooked ergonomic hazards we as drummers need to be aware of. It's not to the extent that someone who works with power tools has to deal with but it can cause problems nonetheless. When I was a kid my father showed me the proper way to use a hammer. It's exactly the same thing. The most effective stroke comes when you hold the handle at its balance point, you initiate the stroke but let the weight of the hammer do the work and finally you allow the hammer to absorb the blow as it hits the nail by loosening the grip on impact.
These things take some time to learn. It's a timing issue and yes, you will drop sticks in the process. LET IT HAPPEN. That's why you need to work on the one hand for awhile like Steve pointed out so you can put all your focus on doing it correctly till you get the feel down. Once you have that together then you can continue to work it into playing some basic time feels with straight backbeats. Then backbeats with ghost notes and so on. Watching Vinnie or DW on video is great but realize the time spent getting there and for us humans it does not happen overnight. Keep at it. The rewards will be great.
I?m not sure if i?m approaching traditional grip right.
Now i?m playing with a band that?s mostly backbeat oriented music and i?m having a hard time with my left hand.
My bandmates don?t even notice when i switch the grip, but it?s really important to me understand the grip...
I learn the grip basically from dave, from Back to Basics and How To Develop Technique... anyway, here?s the question...
When playing a lot of backbeats, do you drop the stick to the head and catch it after bouncing into cradle position? I found that it?s hard to do it so many times in little time...
I?v seen Chapin play moeller and he?s taking almost no bounce when playing backbeats...
What do you say? Thanks...
I personally don't agree withb the 'work through the pain' theory as there should never be any pain if you are holding the stick correctly. My advice - go and see Hassell [img]wink.gif[/img] PM me and I'll give you his number.
Rudy: I'd ensure that my thumb is always straight. I had the same problem as you and noticed that my thumb was a little bent (fine for certain finesse playing but not for rimshot backbeats). I got pain in the same location as you--trauma from mashing the snare with a sloppy fulcrum and too-tight grip. In fact, I got a blood blister extending down my wrist/forearm. When I straightened the thumb, used the first finger as a "motivator", and got a more graceful motion going with the arm, presto, things got better. Incidentally, Modern Drummer's going to have a huge feature on the grip with loads of photos; it's an issue or two away and that may help. Good luck,
WB
I play both grips, but prefer matched. Less trouble, equal power, and more consistent for me.
I still get minor pain there after extended playing periods. Vinnie's grip is a good example of controlled looseness obviously. It's almost deceptive because it appears that the stick is just sitting there but when it comes to the actual stroke there's a lot going on under the hood. It's loose in between strokes which I think is cool.
You may want to put the right stick down and just spend some time hitting the drum with your left hand and just observing what's happening. Try not to bury the stick into the drum, let it come back some. It is possible; albeit not in the Grub-Weck theory where the stick should be FLYING BACK FROM REBOUND OMG IT WANTS TO ANYWAY JUST LET IT it doesn't work like that in a real-world context in my opinion. There's just not enough time in bewteen strokes to allow the stick to fully rebound. But there is enough to where you can let it bounce back a hair, or just pull it back yourslef even. Just try to minimize the amount of shock your hand absorbs. It's like hitting a tree with a baseball bat and leaving it there. Ouch.
It may take some getting used to, but what's the alternative?
Thanks for all the advice guys. Well, I tried it a bit on my gig tonight but rimshots were giving me shock pains under my thumb so I decided to play matched for rest of the gig. I really need to get proper lessons on trad grip and I'm gonna go see louie at some point about that and other general stuff. I must say though, I was focusing on 'loose' all night, as loose as I could with both hands at the point of dropping them, recorded myself and wow, such a difference in the way the beats were sitting.
I have been playinhg for 16 years and switched o matched grip about 2 and a half years ago. I play a lot of funk, rock, and gospel so I needed my backbeat to be slammin. I started by analzling my matched style in my left hand. I wanted to achieve the same hit velocity and sound. My left hand stroke in matched was "really" loose with rim shots being done with only my pinkie realy gripping the stick with rest of the stick loosely in my hand. kind of like reversing the grip from front fingers to back fingers. (like holding a bat). I hope this is clear. When going to toms or doing intricate stuff I would make that grip more conventional.
Taking all this into consideration, I started my search for my trad grip. I liked how loose Vinnie has his and I was able to get my left hand really loose. The describsion of my grip is a loose "choping" motion with my left hand. When I strike it's almost like....... And I hate to say it but it's the best way to desribe it, a "jerking" stroke that ends in a chop. This requires a strong thumb muscle because most of the time, that is the only thing that is stopping the stick from flying.
I hope this helps .........
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 05, 2005 11:15 PM: Message edited by: dum-dum-soc ]</font>
Sorry for the double post, but I was not finished.
Oh...the troubles you guys go through to play a cool-looking grip [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I think the Weck-Grube-Moeller method is more about allowing the stick to rebound of it's natural volition by just cradling the stick & using the first 2 fingers & thumb to just gently "guide" it...whatever heighth that may attain on whatever partic drum or cym surface [potentially diff feels here, obv; Donu was correct w regards here]. It is a great method when executed properly. I gets me NO pain...[ditto, Dazzo & CLW]
Do what i do...try practicing on the pad [& then eventually the sn, tom, cym, entire kit, etc] w this rebound method, but doing it in these several ways, slowly at first & building up speed of course...[these will isolate & master several diff ways; firstly, fingers, also thumb, then incorporating wrists, arms; AWA heighth & angle of hand]...
Practice standard rudiments & stickg patterns by holding the TG & by tapping w the fingers on top of the stick, palm at sort of a 90o angl to the head/surfacee, kind of as if to face DOWN, letting it natch rebound, but just controlling the bounce w the first 2 fingers. Then alternmate each of those fingers, one at a time...then, slowly turn the stick over as you consciously practice controlling the bounce [not forcing]...
Also over a period of time then practice slow to fast even sngls, dbls paras,flams, etc [rudiments] by allowing the stick to bounce in the fulcrum cradle, NOT touching the stick AT ALL w the 1st 2 fingers, & only using the thumb to touch the top of the stick to control that sweet spot for the nat bounce, similarly as VC does during the louder/higher stokes of that wicked sngl strk roll during Tweeked- MDF '00...firstly only using the thumb [this will have to be S-L-O-W...then, start incorporating a little hand motion/wrist into the mix, isolating each technique & concentrating/practicing it for a good time...naturally you'll gradually, eventually prob end up using a little more wrist or arm motion for this [don't let your arm tense up - concentrate on relaxing!]...
Because the stick will sometimes want to inch forward away/out from your grip employing the thumb only, you'll have to experiment w hand heighth AWA angle [w/out going too far in degrees either way]...
Then, alternating allowing the first 2 fingers to come back into the technq by just SLIGHTLY touching or "brushing" the top of the stick to help control it...& then both fingers ATST JUST EVER SO SLIGHTLY TO HELP CRADLE THE NAT BOUNCE...& then ALL points in between during practice when these are "down" enough...it will be rough going at first [esp for "beginners" w this method], but in time it will become a "2nd-nature feel."
The tips of the 1st 2 fingers AWA thumb should never be about anything other than CONTROLLING the bounce, & lightly cradling the stick to prevent slippage...NO TENSION OR FORCING SHOULD BE THERE. It takes time, practice, & patience [like anything else in drumming or music or anything else FTM], but in time it will come [prob after quite a few drops of the stick ;-]]...
VC, DC, & Weck are staunch proponents of this rebound method [whether VC espouses it verbally, "nomer-titlistically" or not], at least IMHO as it looks to me, by my countless hours of studying it.
Rhythmatist had some good points AW...
Practice the harsher BBs this way by keeping the shock value to a bare minimum or none...allow the stick to hit & naturally release w little or no tension in the grip whatsoevert. It simply takes analysis AWA pracice time...it's a "feel" technique thing.
Similarly, the MG side of things will also be greatly improved if one practices an extreme german, also French, & also points in between ["American"], employing this natch-rebound/bounce method AW. This way you're not limited to one technq & have mastered several so that your grip feels much better executed [AWA less slippage!], & you are not limited in any way by any "one" thing & can use all points of feel in your grip, not being caught off guard in the moment & flubbing a strk & reduce losing a stick!
[Also, i forgot to mention; during these processes, after a bit of mastery, raise & lower the heighth of your hand a bit off the drum in increments to find that sweet spot...]
Altho sometimes it is difficult to completely & accurately describe in words on a thread all the minute details of what the idea of a specific technq is, i hope you get the general idea, here...esp if you've already been playing or taught TG in the beginning or past [makes it a little easier to understand]...
This has helped my TG CONSIDERABLY...esp since i orig started w MG, but primarily started playing TG later <s>so that other studied drummers wouldn't be able to bag on me in an "academia-snobbery sense"</s> because it "looks cool"... [img]wink.gif[/img]
LMAO - DSOP, klemme, V, Dazz, susp... [img]wink.gif[/img]
So then, has this thread actually turned out to be a defense for MG [vs TG]?! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
[Don't worry...the TG vid will still stand as best comedic drumming clip of all time, regardless]... [img]wink.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 05, 2005 01:52 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>
I might add that, when i spoke of the thumb-only thing in my above post, i should've also noted that when doing the softer/lower strokes, one will likely have to employ the practice of lightly touching the top of the stick w the 1st &/or 2nd finger, & getting the feel of this down...
It's always a good thing if one has a proper good teacher who knows his or her stuff who will help you analyze your grip & improve the "trouble spots."
I would say not to use TG on the gig unless really comf w it. Esp a heavier "backbeat" type gig.
[But OTOH, in the past i've also been known to have been sighted disregarding my own good council on an occasion or 3... [img]wink.gif[/img]
Oh, impatience & eager, reckless abandon...notice i didn't nec say "wreck-less"...& i also didn't say, "Weckl-less"]... ;-]
I agree with Dazz on the pain issue. I think the most important thing you can do is find someone with great hand technique in your area and take some lessons. You should never have any pain in your grip beyond the obvious wear spots when learning the grip itself. (I'm talking blisters and the like. Never muscle/bone pain)
Here is 5 minutes of various songs from one of this weekends gigs. Corny old shit, function band, but hey. All sequenced tracks but with absolutely no clicks and some silent gaps, except the occasional clicked 4 beats count in. Ambiguous, cluttered, badly programmed drums on the tracks (in my headphones) to follow which doesn't give much clarity to the time. Vida loca at 2.32 has a 2 bar break with no time reference on the track at all, pretty much silence. I do my best to nail it, though it's a bit pushed through worrying about not getting it.
All in all, it's ok but I won't be happy till every stroke is sitting perfectly evenly of which there are many that aren't. This is matched grip. Maybe trad grip might ultimately improve things for me. Oh if you're wondering why the drums come in on carwash in a different place from the claps on the original, it's because the guys in the band programmed it the wrong way around. Btw, this is recorded with just my minidisc and a single stereo sony mic wrapped around a cymbal stand. Not bad sound considering [img]tongue.gif[/img]
http://jamesseph.phpwebhosting.com/DRuM's%20Stuff/snippets.mp3
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 06, 2005 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>
Watch the angle of your thumb. It should touch your first finger at around the first joint (assuming the joints are numbered from the tip of the finger). When I first started messing with trad, I had the thumb angled back more than that, touching the index finger behind the second joint, and I got the pain you describe.
Rudy, it sounds fine to me mate, lovely playing... don't start getting all Weckl on us and obsessing about every single stroke. We are all human and sometimes it's nice have a bit of rim in there! [img]wink.gif[/img]
Try seriously checking out Virgils lefthand grip.
He's able to maintain TG while backbeating heavily, and doing intricate stuff as well.
He's probably got the strongest/beefiest TG backbeat that I've ever seen. His secret was "simply" to stick to it through the hard times, and eventually get used to it AND finding a sweetspot for backbeating! His hand technique is every bit as outstanding as his foot technique.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Absolutely.Quote:
Originally posted by Derek DeFields:
..You should never have any pain in your grip beyond the obvious wear spots when learning the grip itself. (I'm talking blisters and the like. Never muscle/bone pain)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I always have a click or some percussive sound ["more cowbell!"] referencing a silent break / extended rest. Some might call it a "crutch," but there's no question as to the time, & i prefer no surprises or f-ups live. Of course, after playing to it a while, the timing of it becomes 2nd nature. But on a relatively newly added song, i always insist on a click in a break, unless it's a very short one, until it is 2nd nature.Quote:
Vida loca at 2.32 has a 2 bar break with no time reference on the track at all, pretty much silence. I do my best to nail it, though it's a bit pushed through worrying about not getting it
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ha ha ha.Quote:
it sounds fine to me mate, lovely playing... don't start getting all Weckl on us and obsessing about every single stroke. We are all human and sometimes it's nice have a bit of rim in there
[Wecklover here...just whaddya mean by that?!] [img]wink.gif[/img] j/k
Heh...It's OK to privately "bust a Weckl" all up on your stuff...evidently just don't let [some of us] here know!... [img]tongue.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 07, 2005 12:15 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>
I taught mayself to play traditional about 10 years ago. At first I had a bruise that wouldn't quit along with a sore wrist so I continued to play matched MOST of the time and really, as time went on I just got better at it.
I firmly believe that watching dudes with great traditional technique is a must. Dig out your videos and really hone in on the posture of the hands. If you watch somebody with beautiful hands enough and try to emulate that, you'll GET IT.
Try playing your gigs with matched but practicing on a pad using tradional. Play at a light to medium volume and let your hand get used to it. You don't just start off running a mile a day. You have to walk for a while first so that you can develop those muscles. This way you won't hurt yourself. And let the bruise or pain go away before you attempt it again. No sense hurting yourself.
Also, when playing traditional backbeats either whip the stick ala Stewart Copeland or practice the Vinnie/Bruce Lee thang of getting a hellacious backbeat from 4-5 inches of the rim and head. It can be done. I've never believed that you can't get the same power out of tradional as you can matched. It's just not true if you use proper technique.
That's my two cents worth......
Before I switched permanently
to matched (I still play trad
for fun and tricks), I had long
played trad and at the back end
of the stick, like Gadd, Narada
and others. I got the black spot,
the soreness etc.
I can understand whacking it for
that backbeat. One of the things
I did was treat that stroke sep-
arately. In other words, I hit
the snare (rim), for the backbeat
differently, having a slightly
looser grip on impact. Afterwards,
I would tighten up for movement
around the set.
Hope it helps and empathize.
[img]cool.gif[/img]
http://www.thediametrixletter.com/Gadd.bmp
Is he the man or is he the man?!
[img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 09, 2005 04:39 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>
Ooops! I double posted.
Well, I'll use this space to just
suggest the alternative of matched.
It's a great way to equalize.
*Waiting for the trad guys to rain
down on me*
[img]eek.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]