Functional vs. Creative and Technical

That is indeed a tough one....i guess i'll just be both. I want my cake and i wanna eat it too. Really it would be great to tap into both of those "parts" of the music scene. But I also believe you can be functional(laying down groove) and still be creative and technical(flurry of 32's). Gadd is the model student--so to speak-- for that. So is vinnie.

But these guys you mentioned are rare cases...the top dogs--the michael jordans of drums. Most people who are aspiring to become full-time professional musicians, like myself, will work on everything and anything to reach their goals. So what i'm saying is i'd be happy to do clinics, backup playing, sessions, (almost) anything in drums/music.

maybe my ramblings made sense.

I agree... I think for us non-A-listers, to make a living at it you would have to cover all the bases or certainly keep an ear to the ground for trends etc.

You can't be an e-type person being E-verything to E-verybody, but you should be an opportunist and capitalize on a situation.

hope that makes sense?!? ugh, I need more coffee.

My career has been strange in that after many years as a 'functional' drummer I got pulled into the clinic world here in the UK (and I have played with many of the players you mention.)

One thing I have realised is that it's all functional drumming.
When you do clinics you find the audience doesn't get stuff that is really hard to play and they are impressed a lot of the time by simpler stuff.

Someone like Thomas Lang has this down to an art. He plays incredibly difficult stuff but in a way that anyone can follow. This is why he has become such a force on the clinic scene.

But a lot of the things that work in commercial music. (groove, hooks, background story, status etc) have the same impact in the clinic world.

It's all about fulfilling the aesthetic criteria of any given sitution I think...

Good posts. Btw, did andy mention he does clinics yet?? [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]

I think all those different things would be fun but for me, I just aspire to have the best groove I can possibly lay down and enough chops to translate what's in my head to my hands.

As far as these great soloists like virgil who's whole being is about drum artistry, chops and manipulation of time, etc it doesn't appeal to me enough to want to focus so much on drum soloing. I'd get bored. It's great to check out these guys solos, I love to hear them. But to be 'a virtuoso soloist' nah, I couldn't really care less. I think that's because the real buzz, the real euphoria fix, is in the music, not the drums alone.

Good point, Andy. The venue determines what might be considered functional. Drum clinics are somewhat artificial environments, but give us a great opportunity hear a drummer push his envelope. Given a choice between the two, functional - no question. I'm always surprised that there are so many amateur/semi-pro drummers out there with impressive technique but have a terminal lack of taste or groove. Ideally, we'd all blend the two, favoring the grooving side foremost.

That said, I like to push my technical limitations, working phrasing and groove interdependence when I practice. When I play the nutty stuff at a gig, I want it to sound good, not nutty. I love that look from a band mate that says "that was cool", and hate the "Was that a mistake?" or "What planet are you from?" look.

The Jojo Mayer comments have led me to create this thread.

There are so many great drummers out there that have amazing technique, good time, and free solo ideas. They do clinics, teach, and sometimes tour and/or record in the "A" list music scene. I include drummers like Thomas Lang, Virgil Donati, and Jojo Mayer in this group.

Then you have the drummers that only really play music. Meaning with other musicians. They play the right part for the song, lay down a nice dirty pocket, and have enough technique to execute their ideas. Shawn Pelton, Abe Jr, Russ Miller, Jim Keltner, and more.

Of course there are the few in between, who jump between scenes. They are session players that play on radio singles, yet do fusion/jazz gigs as well. Gadd, Colaiuta, Omar Hakim, Steve Jordan, Steve Hass, Gary Novack, and a few others whom I can't remember.

Which do you aspire to be? A functional drummer, who makes a great living without family assistance, playing on major tours and recordings, or the 32nd note double bass playing clinician who lives mostly off of endorsements and clinics?

Obviously I am not including the great jazz drummers in this.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 24, 2005 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Groovesmitty ]</font>

"Which do you aspire to be? A functional drummer, who makes a great living without family assistance, playing on major tours and recordings, or the 32nd note double bass playing clinician who lives mostly off of endorsements and clinics?"

Hopefully a musical one.

One need not necessarily exclude the other. It's just a question, as Andy and others have said, of playing the right stuff at the right place and time.

Facility without musicality is like being John Holmes without a girlfriend.

Rudy_ment.

I only mention I do clinics because I assume nobody knows and that my my opinions might be coloured from my experience.
(perhaps it does come across like self promotion <sorry> but in reality you will find many posts here by people describing what they do. But if you say you do clinics it's like a red rag to bull for most drummers. I've probably ended up doing them because I'm a half good public speaker!)

I used to think that clinicians were all about '32nd notes on the double pedal' but the fact is most of the guys mentioned in the first paragraph have done as much 'functional drumming' as anyone else.

So my basic point is that this division between technicians/clinicians and REAL drummers is a bit false.
It's just another gig.

Oh andy, I'm sure you realise I was just pullin yer leg mate! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I know what you meant in your post and I generally like reading your posts as they have depth to them giving me something to think about over a coffee [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hello Rudy_ment.

I thought that, it's difficult to know how you come across in forums. I have quite a dry sense of humor and a lot of what I say is a bit tongue in cheek.

But back to the point, the reason I mention my experience is that I have jammed many a time with guys like Marco and Thomas and all I can say is they are REALLY great players and seem to me to cover all bases more than adequately!!!

The idea that they are a seperate breed from Tony, Vinnie and Gadd seems nuts to me. They are just really great players. They are different however, their groove and aesthetic choices are different.
I think this is a good thing.

What does worry me is how drummers have elevated the technical aspects of playing (and in this I include groove as well as speed).
I think the most important aspect of a player is their personality (eg Buddy, Moonie, Ringo) This I feel makes great records.

Music needs a kick in the ass!

When was the last time you heard a record where the drumming had some sort individuality? (White Stripes?)

Maybe it's time to move away from not only the 'technique for it's own sake' players but also the generic 'rent a groovers'

Yes, Jojo is doing something different but drummers trying to emulate machines?

We are so much better that machines because we are human and art is all about humanity.
I saw Jojo doing his 'reverse enginnering' at Drummerlive and I think it's a dead end artistically. (I must say he is an amazing drummer with great technique etc)

There is stuff that if you do it on the drums you are going to get critisized. It's the drum dogma!
This exists in both technique and groove. Groove used to be something seperate to time which was a musicians fingerprint. Now I hear drummers knocking players groove because their 'pockets not right'

For drumming to move forward these dogmas need to be questioned.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Andy Edwards:
Yes, Jojo is doing something different but drummers trying to emulate machines?

We are so much better that machines because we are human and art is all about humanity.
I saw Jojo doing his 'reverse enginnering' at Drummerlive and I think it's a dead end artistically. (I must say he is an amazing drummer with great technique etc)

There is stuff that if you do it on the drums you are going to get critisized. It's the drum dogma!
This exists in both technique and groove. Groove used to be something seperate to time which was a musicians fingerprint. Now I hear drummers knocking players groove because their 'pockets not right'

For drumming to move forward these dogmas need to be questioned.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I appreciate your outlook Andy, but remember that the machines got it from the drummers (humans) in the first place. ie: James Brown, Meters, funk groove ect.. The machines might have de-humanized the feel a bit, but it also pushed the rhythms to new tempos, and helped create new phasing, which in return pushed the drummer to get better and not be over taken... It's all perspective. Whether you like the Jo Jo electronica or not, it's all an opinion and everyone's is valid. It might be a dead end art to you, but to others it will open many doors to new places. My goals and perspective is to take the DnB and Jungle ideas and re-humanize it. I agree and think that a lot of electronica is heartless and lacks a visceral element. Ad a human with technique and I hear possible new life? You may not feel it but that?s the beauty of music. It's art at the end of the day. Take it or leave it.
Peace, Sammy J [img]smile.gif[/img]

I don't think electronic music lacks feel or is dehumanised.
When sequencers were invented people began to push what they could do. Here in the UK certain dance producers started pitch shifting breaks up to the speed of House and beyond and a new style was born.
At the time in the early nineties Jungle was a very exciting music form and influenced me a lot.

But I once asked a a dance producer (who also loved jazz) why he didn't use real drummers. He said 'we don't need them, this music form is not about that. It's about pushing certain buttons in a club'

But drummers emulating drum and bass is seen in some quarters as clever. But this is not what this music form is about. Watching Jojo at Drummerlive left me feeling flat. But there is another point here. Talking to older players you get the feeling that live drumming was once valued by the business so there was a lot of work for drummers. Drum machines were seen as the poorer alternative. But look how everyone plays now. They try to get their playing as tight as possible, there sound as compressed and in your face as possible and if you can't do this Protools will do this for you.

We are putting ourselves out of business. Humanity it seems is not good enough anymore. I think it's time drummers stopped emulating the machines and do what we do best, sound like humans! That way songwriters and producers at least have the choice.

Lol, it's true though. It's a bit of a catch 22. Drum machines first emulated drummers, drummers now emulate drum machines, and probably someone somewhere is currently programming a live drummers complicated groove that the live drummer originally got from a drum machine anyway and so we're back to square 1. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Great topic, but one thing I will point out though. I think lumping Jo Jo with Virgil and Thomas or comparing them after hearing Jo Jo's link is a bit off target. Yes, jo jo can hang technically with those two and has done some over technical music, but the difference is that Jo Jo is actually pushing the musical barrier. Most times you'll usually hear these drummers playing fussion or really bad excuses of songs. Jo Jo is stretching the envelope of music by taking the electronica to the next level. I've yet to hear Virgil do that on any musical recording or such, despite his ability. When I hear Jo Jo?s band, I hear a dirty pocket, it's just a different style. The point... Jo Jo is taking all the chops and is using them to play a style of music that requires such technique which hasn?t been exploited yet (electronica done with real drumming). He's breaking down the wall of normality of some everyday music.
Chops vs. groove??? I?d rather be the guy doing something unique, what ever it is, period?
Peace, Sammy J [img]smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

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Originally posted by Andy Edwards:
Watching Jojo at Drummerlive left me feeling flat.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]eek.gif[/img]

I sat 3 foot behind him and was just in awe... I love the detail and vibe of this dude's playing...And, I love Drum And Bass...

MP

Quote:

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Originally posted by Andy Edwards:

But drummers emulating drum and bass is seen in some quarters as clever. But this is not what this music form is about.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with most of your views and I think we're on the same page about a lot of perspectives, but who's to say where a form of music should start or stop, or be about. With those views, we'd have never gotten to Rock n Roll because the Jazz pioneers had never intended for it to progress there. I think it's important to remember our roots and to stay pure to some degree but it's our job to evolve and find new ways to play different styles, no matter what form they were intended to be. I don't want to be left behind being bitter towards the future of music. The way I see it, you can let machines take over or you can learn to create that type of vibe. The human element will always shine through. Evolve or get left behind...
Peace, Sammy J [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 26, 2005 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Drumdawg ]</font>

[quote]Originally posted by Drumdawg:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Andy Edwards:
[qb]Evolve or get left behind...
Peace, Sammy J [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ November 26, 2005 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Drumdawg ]</font></font>

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Precisely Sammy! Too many in my opinion get left behind with old thoughts, values and judgements...things change!

Things do change, BUT...if I hear Andy, his thoughts surround the idea of humanity vs. machine, and a sub thought might be human vs. human?musical drumming against non-musical drumming. The non-musical form being clinics and WFD competitions as primary careers over playing in a band or doing sessions.

This really is a different topic with a lot of overtones. Musical evolution is one thing, but what comes to my mind when I read this thread is making movies with computers and 3-D figures over real people. It?s like watching a video game. Over time, people might wonder? ?What happened to real actors?? Like Andy said about the music producer on the dance floor, ?Who needs real drummers?? Well, believe me when I say there are directors who would like to manipulate their movie projects and say, ?Who needs real actors if I can create a movie on my laptop??

So again, the question is about being human and using humans over machines. The general public, like with pop music, simply goes along with the flow. There are always thinkers (someone like Andy who has a different attitude than just accept and go with the flow) who question the system, but in large part, the system wins. It?s like a TV commercial, most would say they are not influenced by them, but these commercials invade our homes like roaches and rats, making impressions daily until we forget they are there. We think they are not influencing us, but there they are and they never go away! Over time, we accept the new reality they pitch?and then, the unpredictable happens?this might be a White Strips or another anomaly for 15 mins of fame.

The human spirit is extremely deep and demands depth in some form or another. Sometimes art provides this, sometimes not. The John Holmes quote was on the mark and maybe the best example of this idea of human vs non-human?we have legitimized the illegitimate in pornography?Why have a real woman when you can have a fantasy? Many try to blend both. It?s all about control.

Eventually, like it was said (the human element will always shine through)--the illegitimate wears off and the desire for something REAL wins out. The next generation will be very interesting to me. They were raised on electronics and have been given the "perfect" in terms of machine like perfection. They live in a video game world and will be raised on more graphic images of fake vs real...so what will they desire to see and hear? Will they appreciate what is real or will that be the new fad?

This is really very deep philosophical stuff here that taps into postmodern thought.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Andy Edwards:
I once asked a a dance producer (who also loved jazz) why he didn't use real drummers. He said 'we don't need them, this music form is not about that. It's about pushing certain buttons in a club' [edit]
We are putting ourselves out of business. I think it's time drummers stopped emulating the machines and do what we do best, sound like humans! That way songwriters and producers at least have the choice.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Andy, don't you see we're putting ourselves back into business?! If machines do certain jobs well, the only way to wrestle gigs back from them is to do the same job as well or better.

And also, as a live d&b drummer (and I'm sure others on the board will agree with me), can I just go on the record and say Jojo Mayer is NOT
representational of live d&b or live d&b drumming. What Jojo does is amazing, and he has a greater facility than any other drummer working in the genre. And some of the stuff he does with Nerve is, from what glimpses I've had, fairly proper d&b with MCs and so on. BUT, really, you can tell he's a jazzer with a fusion background. He can reverse engineer a d&b beat better than anyone, but the stuff he plays along to negates all the hard work he's done because its too obviously to show off his drumming and, frankly, a bit naff a lot of the time (ie you'd never hear it in a club). Its a platform for his musical expression, whereas d&b is about dancing, not going to gawp at the drummer. Most live d&b does not have over the bar line soloing in it (mine does in rehersals but not the gigs!).

Furthermore, regarding using drummers in d&b: it is happening more and more, becasue the vitality of live drums (done well) in a d&b setting is just amazing, and makes even the most brilliantly produced records sound lame by comparison. So making d&b beats is big, funny & clever, its just that Jojo is doing it from a drummer's perspective, and the rest of us are doing it from a Dance-music perspective.

Firstly, I must say I love Jojos playing ever since I heard him on Lunar Crush many years ago. I think he is one of the worlds great drummers.

But when i saw him at drummerlive it was interesting how much he is taking his lead from dance music. In my opinion this is not wise for drumming

I worked for a long time in dance music as a producer (as the Wikkamen, we released a few tracks for Island and Warner Bros in the lae nineties.)
It was jungle and drum and bass that got me into dance music,I remember seeing Clive Deamer with roni size and he blew me away (and now has my old job in Robert Plant's band!) but by I was progrmming (early nineties) drum and bass was a spent force and a lot of the producers had moved towards House and Garage.

Drum and Bass now is a fring activity at best so it is interesting that it is still alive in the world of drumming.

But I realised when working in this world that drummers were always playing catch up. A dance producer only uses a drummer because of whata drummer can do but even then only uses us for loops. But most likely they will go back to a time when men where men and drummers played drums for their loops!

Isn't it about time we stopped trying to sound like out of date dance music and played some REAL drumming! (something computers still can't do...real drum sounds in real rooms with a bit of human feel)

Andy, "Wikkamen" sounds familiar...is the Wikkamen project the same as the Wyka Men who did a track called "Basket?" Got that track on a Terry Mullan house mix (when he was still outta Chicago) and it's a tasty one if so.

I understand your point AE about feeling that there is something lost in trying to emulate machines. Part of me says, let the machines do what they do best and let live drummers do what they do best. On the other hand, I don't see the problem with learning new things and ways of looking at playing as long as we don't kill our best work in the process.

It's well established that drum machines have foisted standards of perfect time and cleanliness--or at least machine time and cleanliness--on flesh and bone drummers, and that is not where the heart of music lives. One can get obsessed with these standards at the expense of a feel that is more human, a little ragged around the edges. But Ned's point about how vibrant that scene can be is also true. Dance music can be vibrant and visceral; at times it is moreso than other live music. There's a lot that is stale out there--in all genres--and that was reflected by the rise of electronic music in the 90s. You just don't see thousands of people slam dancing to fusion these days, and I don't think it's just all some "marketing" thing. House, trance and d&b parties weren't forced upon consumers by the industry here on the West Coast in the 90s and they blew up anyhow. People went to them because the connected with the music and scene (or wanted to get laid or high or all the things that are usually associated with partying [img]wink.gif[/img] ). Why wouldn't live musicians want to cash in on some of that vibe?

I do agree that electronic music is a little spent in general at the moment. So where is the major creative energy push these days? If it's all been done, then where is the vibrance? To quote Roberta Flack, "Where is the love?" (jk)

We've strayed a bit form the "Technical vs. Creative" thread. But maybe not so much? A machine can perform a lot of functional and technical pieces of drumming. People can make drum machines groove these days...check out some neo soul (Erika Badu, Me'Shell, etc.) if you need evidence of that.

Perhaps the question is what makes your playing, your particular music voice special or worth playing/recording/selling?