Do you think it will really help?
Is it true that only the ICAN bands $ go to Girls.Inc?
Is it true that the end of the relationship will be Dec. 26th?
Any other thoughts?
Thanks,
Tra
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Do you think it will really help?
Is it true that only the ICAN bands $ go to Girls.Inc?
Is it true that the end of the relationship will be Dec. 26th?
Any other thoughts?
Thanks,
Tra
AG rep told me there have been a lot of complaints.
I will just be honest and tell you this. I have spent over $ 6,000.00 over ten years (I keep painstaking records of every purchase I ever make lol) and I told them in no uncertain terms I will not be purchasing from them AT ALL because of this.
They are a big business. What they hear is money. If you discontinue being their customer they take notice of that.
Okay, maybe not if one person does it. But with enough people refusing to buy form them, they take notice. And it seems they have!
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 07, 2005 10:46 PM: Message edited by: StarTrekCaptain ]</font>
Wow! 6k... lol...sounds like a real addict. I think it is great of you to give up something you love so much for your beliefs... I just bought a doll b/c i thought it would be ok if I didn't buy ICAN... thanks for your views. They make a lot of sense. I won't be buying from AG anymore for a while...
One thing I have noticed is that for every company that gets boycotted, they will also gain free publicity. So while AG may have lost you as a customer, by repeated magazine articles and news shows covering the boycott of AG by some Christian groups, they are attracting new customers who disagree with your viewpoint and want to spend money just to make a point. You may not agree with being gay or abortion being legal (which has nothing to do with AG - their donations go to totally different programs, but I'm sure that's not important here) however there are a lot of women who do support abortion rights and have no problem with someone being gay, and they also have no problem buying these dolls for their daughters, and knowing that the company is facing a boycott could cause them to spend more than they normally would.
I heard on the news this afternoon that some Christian groups want to ban Target because their employees are required to say the more generic term "Happy Holidays" instead of Merry Christmas. What is wrong with that? If you celebrated Hanuakkah, would you want people saying Merry Christmas to you? Or reverse the roles - say you, as a good outstanding Christian citizen, were shopping at Target and they told you Happy Hanuakkah. Would you be offended? Hearing that groups like that want to ban a store that is trying to please everyone and make sure people don't get upset or bothered over a greeting make me want to do all my holiday shopping at Target.
I will proudly post here and on AGFB. I agonized over this decision for a while. I did buy marisol's collection...but i haven't purchased since. I keep waiting for the affiliation to end. I also think that protesting with graphic signs in front of the store is a bit too drastic. I don't know if that was done...but was discussed by some in the media. I should take that with a grain of salt!
I agree with other posts that Jesus loves those who sin. It is the sin that He doesn't like. And we all sin. It is just a matter of belief and forgiveness. That is the only difference between myself and someone else. I am no better...just forgiven.
Cleopatra...I see where you are coming from. I have had those same thoughts myself about the boycott publicity. I understand needing to take a stand too.
I think the whole happy holidays thing is a little off...but that is just MHO.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 07, 2005 11:12 PM: Message edited by: chrstnwmn7 ]</font>
Chrstnwmn7... [img]smile.gif[/img] great way of putting it. Thanks for posting on this board! You are so welcome here!
The Happy Holidays thing I dislike is that people are trying to do away with Christianity and anything to do with it. Instead of Merry Christmas...a Christian thing...people are saying Happy Holidays, which would be fine except for the reason people are doing it...to take Christian things off the public things. There is no reason to do this. People are so afraid of offending anyone with Christianity that they do away with it all together. What was that verse about being ashamed of Jesus, He would be ashamed of us before His Father in Heaven.... That's Just My Opinion...
I applaud people who can take a stand against companies whose values differ from their own and not buy their products. There are several companies I will not purchase from for various reasons myself. But I don't march or protest in front of their stores waving signs and yelling at the people who do choose to shop there, or call and verbally harass their employees who have no say in what the corporate bigwigs are doing. Sorry, but that's not going to help. Write a letter expressing your feelings and tell them why you've stopped purchasing. When you bring a lot of media attention to it is when things get out of control.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They're not trying to take Christianity out of the public, it's more of a case of trying to be more accepting to everyone. Face it, not everyone in this country is Christian. I am Catholic and although I celebrate Christmas, just out of common courtesy to people I say things like have a nice holiday or enjoy the holiday season, because it would be awkward to tell someone to have a Merry Christmas when they don't even celebrate the holiday. Do YOU as a Christian want someone to tell you Happy Ramadan? Would you like it if you were checking out at the grocers and the clerk told you Happy Kwanzaa? Instead of just focusing on one holiday by saying "Christmas," holidays/seasons greetings is just becoming more used.Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
The Happy Holidays thing I dislike is that people are trying to do away with Christianity and anything to do with it. Instead of Merry Christmas...a Christian thing...people are saying Happy Holidays, which would be fine except for the reason people are doing it...to take Christian things off the public things. There is no reason to do this. People are so afraid of offending anyone with Christianity that they do away with it all together. What was that verse about being ashamed of Jesus, He would be ashamed of us before His Father in Heaven.... That's Just My Opinion...
I'm not boycotting Target either...the point was not that, but to say that the kicking Christianity out of the public was wrong.
I will most certainly NOT boycott American Girl because
1) The money AG is donating is ONLY going to the Girls, Inc. academic and athletic programs.
2) They are only donating the money from the I CAN bands (which I plan on purchasing a few of within the next couple of weeks), along with donating $50,000 (which still only goes to the learning and physical education programs!)
Also, although I am a Christian (although not super religious), and I do celebrate Christmas, I feel that it is just fine to say "Happy Holidays!" For goodness sake, so many different winter holidays are celebrated in America, among the many different religions. Think about this. You are offended when someone says, "Happy Holidays!" ("holidays" includes Christmas, BTW) instead of "Merry Christmas!" Wouldn't someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas possibly be offended if everywhere they go, the stores, the parks, wherever, people are saying "Merry Christmas!" to them when it is a holiday that they do not celebrate? There are so many wonderful religions in this country, not one deserves to be left out when being wished some holiday cheer. That is why the employees at places like Target and Bookspan (where my mom works on the phone) have to wish people "Happy Holidays!" instead of "Merry Christmas!"
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 08, 2005 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Dreaming_of_Dolls ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good for you, Cleo. I am into physical fitness, but I decided not to go to Curves when I learned that a portion of their proceeds goes to support pro-life organizations. Instead, I chose Jazzercise, and what a great choice it was. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]Quote:
There are several companies I will not purchase from for various reasons myself.
I live in an urban environment and see first-hand the conditions that some children have to live in and the obstacles they face. If Girls, Inc. can help these underprivileged girls become smarter and more self-confident, well, then more power to them. These girls will need all the coping skills they can get to help them conquer an environment that tries to hold them back on a daily basis.
Oh, and last time I checked, Hannukah, Ramadan and Kwaanza are also celebrated at this time of year.
So "Happy Holidays" seems a lot shorter than "Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Joyous Ramadan and Gleeful Kwaanza."
Or perhaps we can just use "Merry ChristmaHannuKwaanza," like the commercial says. [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]
Hmmmm...I think my greeting of the day is going to be "Happy Hannukah," just for giggles.
Hello, I happen to *not* be a Christian. Thought you might be interested in my view.
I must say I'm impressed by the eloquent opinions expressed by Sangy and Dreaming of Dolls. Obviously you put a lot of thought into it before forming your opinions, rather than just mindlessly parroting a party line. Kudos to you both; you have my respect. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
Originally posted by StarTrekCaptain:
Our country wants to take anything Christian out of public eye. That's why I HATE when people say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas".
I can't remember the stats but one of my professors told our class that the majority of people in the US consider themselves Christian (this isn't syaing they go to church or anything like that, it is just saying what they consider themselves to be.)
You're right, the majority of Americans consider themselves Christian. And because this is true, there is really very little danger that Christianity is ever going to be taken completely "out of the public eye." It's a part of American culture. In fact, it's so deeply ingrained in our culture that it is pretty much *assumed* that everyone is a Christian.
Companies, etc. preferring "Happy Holidays" to "Merry Christmas" are merely trying to show some sensitivity and respect to those of us who aren't.
Aa member of the majority, understand you have a blind spot when it comes to relating to the minority. You don't know what it's like to exist outside the accepted Christian majority. You don't know what it's like to grow up as a non-Christian in this country, with some people constantly insinuating that you stand for what is bad or immoral simply by not being Christian. You don't know what it's like to constantly read opinions (such as those expressed on this board) that basically say: "oh, you non-Christians are OK people and all...but you ARE going to h*ll, you know!"
You and others have stated that you find it offensive when non-Christians make your important religious holiday into a secular celebration. You definitely have a valid reason to feel that way. What I don't understand is why you'd want a non-Christian to be forced to say "Merry Christmas." Obviously they are not going to have a lot of heartfelt meaning behind these words. It would seem to me you'd be opposed to this as a mockery of your faith and your sacred holiday.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is a very dangerous line of thinking.Quote:
Originally posted by StarTrekCaptain:
We are supposed to be democratic, right, so does it seem democratic that we don't rule in favor of the MAJORITY? [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img]
It is never the majority that's in need of protection from oppression--the majority's big and strong enough to protect itself, after all. It's the minority that needs protection.
Think about it. Should the majority really always rule simply by virtue of being the majority? Suppose the powerful majority in a country decides that Jews are less than human and therefore should be rounded up and exterminated. Suppose the powerful majority decides people with a certain skin color should be sold and kept as slaves. Suppose the powerful majority decides it's OK to treat women as lesser human beings. Suppose the powerful majority decides that people who don't believe the same thing as they do should be deprived of basic rights.
Is a strict Majority Rule society really the sort of society you aspire to live in?
Anyway, to back to the topic of the "I Can" band/AG boycott...I do respect anyone's right to stand up for their beliefs. If a boycott's your thing, then great for you.
However, I do find it interesting that so many of you Christians seem to think it's your place to harshly judge others. Again, I'm not a Christian, but that just doesn't strike me as a very "Christian" sentiment. I would think you would be concentrating more on loving your neighbors and letting those without sin cast the first stone--and leave the judging to your God.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hallelujah, Miss X! You seem to have grasped the fundamental principles of Christianity better than most of the Christians I know. [img]graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Quote:
However, I do find it interesting that so many of you Christians seem to think it's your place to harshly judge others. Again, I'm not a Christian, but that just doesn't strike me as a very "Christian" sentiment. I would think you would be concentrating more on loving your neighbors and letting those without sin cast the first stone--and leave the judging to your God.
I'm still wondering who's passing out all these "God told me I'm qualified to judge you" cards? They need some stricter quality controls on who gets one of those suckers. [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]
I try not to judge as well. I am a Christian. But, I respect others who don't share my beliefs. I do try to love others, and especially others who aren't believers. I am so afraid I will do something that will totally turn them away. I am not perfect...by any means.
I love Christmas. But I am also aware of the fact that others celebrate other holidays too. And I respect that. I have been taught to love others as myself. Sometimes this can be hard...but it is worth it in the end.
If I had someone in my family/circle of friends who was gay or had an abortion...I would try to show them the love of Christ. My DH's cousin died from AIDS and he was homosexual. I loved him too. It doesn't change the fact that I still love them & so does Jesus.
Our country wants to take anything Christian out of public eye. That's why I HATE when people say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas".
I can't remember the stats but one of my professors told our class that the majority of people in the US consider themselves Christian (this isn't syaing they go to church or anything like that, it is just saying what they consider themselves to be.)
We are supposed to be democratic, right, so does it seem democratic that we don't rule in favor of the MAJORITY? [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh now this really bothers me something fierce too. I mean, how can you take Christ out of Christmas?? That is absurd. As far as people saying "Happy Holidays"...er excuse me...but what holiday are we celebrating!!! That is like saying lets not say The 4th of July, lets call it Fireworks Day.Quote:
Originally posted by chrstnwmn7:
I think the whole happy holidays thing is a little off...but that is just MHO.
Jesus is the reason for all seasons!
[img]graemlins/island.gif[/img] prasnlrd in CA. [img]graemlins/island.gif[/img]
StarTrekCaptain...so true. [img]smile.gif[/img]
prsnLrd.... "Jesus is the Reason for all seasons"... YUP!!! [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] ... so true!!!!!
Prasnlrd, that is so true..
and it made me laugh too, how you said "excuse me, what holiday are we celebrating?" LOL i never thought of that way...
maybe Easter should be "Look For Plastic Eggs in the Backyard Day"
and Thanksgiving can be "Get Really Full and Loosen Your Belt Day"
LOL
Christmas has a meaning behind it and it is so stupid for people to pretend it isn't there...here's the REAL question...
"If you are not a Christian and are not celebrating the birth of Christ, then why do you celebrate Christmas?"
And people would say, "because we want presents, and the tree with the star on it just looks so darn pretty"
My feeling is, if you are not Jewish, you don't celebrate Hannukkah, and if you are not Christian then why are you celebrating Christmas?
Christmas is a RELIGIOUS holiday, people, just like Hannukkah!
On that note, I got these really great Christmas cards to send to people this year. They are of Baby Jesus lying in the manger, and Santa Claus kneeling before Jesus with his head bowed.
I know Santa Claus was not at Jesus's birth lol but I thought it sent a good message...you know, because people tend to "worship" Santa Claus, and this card has Santa Claus bowing down worshipping Jesus.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Two excellent point made here! Christmas is a Christian Holiday! YES, YES, YES!Quote:
Originally posted by StarTrekCaptain:
Christmas is a RELIGIOUS holiday, people, just like Hannukkah!
On that note, I got these really great Christmas cards to send to people this year. They are of Baby Jesus lying in the manger, and Santa Claus kneeling before Jesus with his head bowed.
I know Santa Claus was not at Jesus's birth lol but I thought it sent a good message...you know, because people tend to "worship" Santa Claus, and this card has Santa Claus bowing down worshipping Jesus.
Reagarding the Baby Jesus and Santa. I have a beautiful figurine of this I display every Christmas. I also have a Christmas Tree ornament of this that I have on an ornament hanger sitting next to the figurine.
[img]graemlins/island.gif[/img] prasnlrd in CA. [img]graemlins/island.gif[/img]
LLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!! I agree I agree I agree... [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 08, 2005 12:43 AM: Message edited by: Tra ]</font>
OK so target has said people needed to say Happy holidays? wowwie. Missed that report. Would I boycott them? Probably not.
I am a Christian.
I really had to think about the whole issue with the ICAN bands. My mother called me when the news reports really started up on it. My husband and I really took the time to look over the materials that Girls Inc were making available.
I was disappointed that so much of the material was about Lesbianism. I won't deny that. However I began to really think about the overall mission of this foundation. They started back in the Victorian Era when girls and women were not free to speak about sexuality in general. When an ****** was oppressed. When a woman couldn't see a doctor for fear that she might not social be accepted anymore. I thought about how they have supported the medical community and taught girls about their bodies and how to stay healthy and active. How to spiritually support themselves.
I sat and thought about ALL of the rolls wemon face today. I thought about how women have been oppressed in the past. Lesbianism IS something that some girls need to learn about. They aren't there to make a moral statement but a social and educated statement. Only when a girl can understand her body can she work with it and work on what she needs to be doing for herself.
That is what Girls Inc supports. Girls learning and doing for themselves. Can I support that? Sure. Do I see whay AG wanted and affiliation with them? Sure.
I don't believe my boycotts will make a darn difference. I am gald you guys are having the discussion here though.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh now this really bothers me something fierce too. I mean, how can you take Christ out of Christmas?? That is absurd. As far as people saying "Happy Holidays"...er excuse me...but what holiday are we celebrating!!! That is like saying lets not say The 4th of July, lets call it Fireworks Day.Quote:
Originally posted by prasnlrd:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by chrstnwmn7:
I think the whole happy holidays thing is a little off...but that is just MHO.
Jesus is the reason for all seasons!
[img]graemlins/island.gif[/img] prasnlrd in CA. [img]graemlins/island.gif[/img] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What holiday are we celebrating? Well about 10 million people in the United States are celebrating Hanukah. Saying "Happy Holidays" is simple good manners and courtesy when you don't know for certain the faith of the person to whom you are speaking.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And, if you take a moment to study this website on American Ethnic Geography, you'll see that no congregation can claim to be the "majority" everywhere in the U.S.Quote:
Well about 10 million people in the United States are celebrating Hanukah.
http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/geo/cour.../religion.html
So, the emphasis on religious holidays can vary strongly, depending on what area of the country you're in.
Once again, thanks for keeping it civil here.
I must say, though, that I am tired of non-Christians calling all Christians "judgemental" just because they believe something is wrong. I don't stop loving a person just becuase they do something worng. I judge their actions and not the person. God would have stopped loving me a long time ago if He stopped loving people as soon as they sinned. That's not what Christianity is about. You can love someone, certainly, without believing that everything they do is right. No one here has said anything that makes me think that they have stopped loving anyone.
Keep posting, guys
Thanks,
Tra
Wow, all of a sudden I'm a Nazi, a supporter of slavery, and an oppressor of women. [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img]
StarTrekCaptain,
I am certainly not accusing you of being a Nazi, a supporter of slavery, or anything else ridiculous like that.
I am simply stating:
What is right is not always what is popular.
What is popular is not always what is right.
I encourage you to have the integrity to stand up for your opinions because you believe they're right. If you give real *reasons* why you believe what you believe, I'll respect that.
"Defending" your opinions only by claiming lots of other people agree with you is not a very compelling argument.
Just something to think about.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 08, 2005 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Miss X ]</font>
I also belive that the general idea of majority rules is dangerous. I have had countless stories about how the jews were rounded. The "majority" didn't do a darn thing for them. They stood back in fear of what they were seeing. I don't believe the majority of germans wanted the jews gone. Most were to scared to do anything to the ones doing it. The lived in fear in a non religous society where freedom of speech was squashed. Where choice wasn't allowed. Sometimes it is easier to do and follow what everyone wants. But it isn't always the right thing.
Majority doesn't rule. What rules in society is fear.
Fear of being made fun of
Fear of being undereducated
Fear of being hurt
It is unfortunate but something that anyone can overcome. I think the fact that these things are being discussed here is kind of fun.....like an adult centered AG board. Wonder where I have heard that line before.....
[img]wink.gif[/img]
Ohhhh and I forgot.....
Christ was not born in December. The reason we celebrate the birth of Christ in December is because originally Emporer Constantine converted to Christianity and when he did so he change the original cellebration that was on the 25th. It was mithraism and that was the god of the sun. "Light of the World" followers of the religion were called "Soldiers of Light". Hence the easy change to "Soldiers of Christ". With Constantines conversion to the teachings of Christ the entire state changed to Christianity and the date was set in place.
Still Many belive that the birthdate of Christ may have been the 6th of January. That is usually called 3 kings day in some countries.
The "LDS" or Latter-Day Saints believe that the birth of Christ was closer to spring and around Easter. However still celebrate it with the "Christians" on the 25th of December.
Happy Holidays or Holy Days are just as applicable to the "Christians" as it is to any other faith out there.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe that I also said that I found many Christians to be judgemental. And, while I may not share the views of everyone on this board, I am Christian.Quote:
I must say, though, that I am tired of non-Christians calling all Christians "judgemental" just because they believe something is wrong.
Even if you love the sinner and hate the sin, you are still judging.
I agree Ann. The mere fact that you are saying what they are doing is wrong is judging them. You are placing your religous beliefs upon them to decide what is right or wrong. Im not saying that I think you deep down hate that person, but you are judging them. The whole basis for homosexuality being wrong comes entirely from religion and that is why I have an issue with passing laws that restrict their rights. As far as Im concerned, you are combining politics with religion on that one. I am truly scared for where this country is heading if this continues the way it has on many issues.
As for Christmas, I cant help but laugh every time I hear someone say, 'lets bring Christ back into Christmas'. First of all, bringing Christ back into Christmas means bringing your lord and savior back into the materialistic and commercialism mess that is modern day Christmas. Seems funny that anybody wants that. Second, other than the nativity scene, nearly every Christmas holiday tradition we have is descended from pagan winter solstice celebrations. December the 25th was picked as the day for Christmas because it was the sun gods birthday in Roman mythology and was a huge celebration. It was their way of keeping one of their greatest parties when they switched from 'pagan' to Christianity. It simply made the transition easier. The traditions that followed mostly came from northern Europe where their religion was entirely based around nature and they had a huge celebration during the winter solstice which occurs December 21, right around Christmas coincidently! From the evergreens which were honored for the seeminly magical ability to stay fresh and green throughout the dead of winter to fruit which celebrates life. So as you can see, modern day Christmas the way it is CELEBRATED, not necessarily how it is viewed, today actually has very little to do with Christ.
People who are Christian will keep Christ in their personal celebrations and that is fine. But he does not need to be involved in everyone elses. I view Jesus as a great prophet but not a savior. I was raised Catholic but claim no religion now. But I still participate in Christmas because I love the history behind the holiday and still think Jesus' birth should be celebrated. Therefore, I dont think that we should assume everyone wants to hear 'Merry Christmas'. There are many holidays going on at this time of year and we should be respectful of everyone.
However, if someone says 'Happy Holidays' to me on Christmas day, Im going to call the PC police on them [img]wink.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 11, 2005 02:05 AM: Message edited by: *shortie* ]</font>
Because Christmas has become such a mainstream holiday, that is why so many people practice it. Obviously if you are Muslim or Hindu or Jewish you wont be. But there are many people who dont really accept any religion, such as myself, who simply part take in the cultural aspects of the holiday. That being Santa Claus, Christmas trees, etc. Those things have nothing to do with the birth of Christ. They are the cultural celebration of Christmas and I see nothing wrong with people who are not Christian celebrating that.
As for believing your religion is the one true religion means having faith in your religion, well, I disagree and agree [img]confused.gif[/img] On hand, part of disgusted attitude I have with organized religion of all kinds is that people will follow the parts they choose and ignore others because, "well thats not modern anymore so we dont do it or believe it." Well then really, whats the point in following your religion? So in many ways, I agree more with the hardcore religous people and how they practice, then the every sunday and thats it crowd.
On the other hand, I truly believe that living a good life filled with love and compassion for others is what ultimately matters more than any faith or religion. I really cant believe that a homosexual, agnostic person who lived a wonderful life of compassion and love is going to go to 'h*ll' for simply being gay or not having a defined faith. If you are a good person-because basic morals dont come from just the bible-then does it really matter if someone practices, Hindu, Islam, Judaism, or Christianity. Or for that matter, protestant vs Catholic. I was raised the latter and even though I disgree with much of it, I am sick to death of ignorant stereotypes and how protestants often parade around as they 'discovered the truth' and Catholics are wierd and scary and very wrong people.
Anyway, the concept of 'one true faith' really confuses me. Since I know more about Christianity I will use that as my example. The Catholic church was the first Christian religion. From the beginning I believe Jesus' teachings were warped by people who created an organized heirarchy and twisted his message into a very structured practice. Centuries later you have the Protestant Reformation. To me, this even worse because all it is someone disagreeing and starting a religion based upon 'truths' they have supposedly discovered. How are they any more right than the original Catholic church? Everything has become so twisted and changed and structured from what Jesus actually preached. Which was simply to have love and compassion for everyone. THAT was his message. Plain and simple, no frills. I believe anyone can intrepret the bible anyway they want, I just dont think that someone should start a religion based on how they see it. Which to me, is all Christianity has become.
I know my views are radical, especially on a board like this. But that is simply how I feel. I consider myself a deeply spiritual person, more so than the many people I know who consider themselves devout Catholic or devout Lutheran. My frustrations come from a combination of Christians acting as the victims as of late even though they are still the majority as well as the constant critisism of Catholicism by people who usually have no idea what they are talking about. In the end, I just wish people would realize that being a good and compassionate person who is so much more important than any religion.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 11, 2005 01:01 PM: Message edited by: *shortie* ]</font>
StarTrekCaptain--great way of saying it. They way the worldd has become today is "everything is acceptable...don't judge anybody." Someone on this board said fear rules, not the majority. I think that if you live your life saying that everything is ok because of your FEAR of being called a hypocrite, then you are really letting fear rule your life.
If we didn't judge anybody, then there would be no jails, no laws, no government, no nothing. Murder would be ok, because, after all everything is accpetable. I'm sure the murder had a good reason for killing another person...blah blah blah. Stuff like that makes me sick and I really really fear for the future of the world if the world continues in this way.
As for Christianity being the only right religion. It is. Period. the end. There is no other way. Compassion, etc... you can be the best person in the world, but you are still a sinner, and without Jesus Christ you are not going to Heaven. Read John 14:6... Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE goes to the Father except through Him.
Thanks for keeping this civil, guys. This is a fun place to discuss these kind of things and I'm glad you are all posting here.
Thanks,
Tra
I understand that you believe Christianity is the one and true religion, but please say "I believe..." before such comments because not everyone feels that way. I happen to strongly disagee. I find it a tad insulting as it is a backhanded way of saying that I myself will be going to h*ll because I do not think of Jesus as a savior. I also dont believe most of what the bible says because it was written by simple men. Not Jesus, not god, men. The bible contains many contradictions within itself and is a product of its patriarchal time.
I understand what you saying about judging when it comes to the law. No there is no excuse for killing a person and Im not the type to make one up. Im very conservative when it comes to the law and punishment in fact. However, I have a problem with using religion in law, such as the outlawing of gay marriage. That is a mixture of religion and politics. Our founding fathers are rolling in their graves. Most of them were agnostic at best, contrary to what most people think today. Christianity WAS the common religion of the land that is true. But it doesnt take any faith or religion to realize that murder, theft or lieing is wrong. Judging people in accordance with the law is not the same thing as judging a person for who they want to marry. Marriage was almost always kept as a civil act, not one related to religion. I can understand-even if I disagree with it-some peoples view on not allowing actual marriage in the church if it is what their religion preaches. But to deny civil unions is something I dont understand. It is a legal union and nothing more.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 11, 2005 04:46 PM: Message edited by: *shortie* ]</font>
The Bible was written by men FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. So in essence, God did write the Bible.
As for judging people based on law and not religion, where do you thing the law came from? Where do you think our society got its laws if not from the Christian religion. I mean, in some socieities it is ok to kill a person if they insulted a member of your family. Why don't we have laws like in those places as opposed to the laws we do have?
How can one be 'filled with the holy spirit'? I have heard this before and have a hard time digesting it. If that is the case, then shouldnt the koran also be true? Were they not filled with something 'holy' when they wrote their ideas down? How can the Christian bible be any more true than the Islamic koran? In Christian Science, Mary Eddy Baker's book on science and health is held up in nearly the same esteem as the bible because it was her 'divine discovery' that she made through the 'lord'. Now most people look at that as a bunch of hooey and to each his own I say. But then, are the reasons for why the bible was written much different? That is why I only take any religious book at face value.
As for the law thing. Yes, some of the laws we have today are influenced by our religion, but not all. And this goes back to the time when religion is what ruled the land. Now I think we can all agree through what has happened in the middle east to the way things were in Europe centuries ago, that theocracy is not a good thing. So many of these religious influenced laws have simply become part of Western Civilization and are more a cultural thing than they are a religious idea. The world has evolved in a way that we have realized that combining religion with government is a terrible idea. And to promote it is a giant step backwards.
In my humble opinion that is [img]smile.gif[/img]
I totally disagree with everything you just said. First of all,, the Koran was not written by people filled with the Holy Spirit. Mohammed and the Koran directly contradict the Bible (from just the small parts I've read of it). Thus, they could not have been filled with the Holy Spirit.
You just have to have Faith in the Bible.
I don't think there is anything wrong with theocracy if it is done correctly. You can't persecute or kill anyone because they don't believe in your religion, for example.
Also: separating church and state does not mean ignoring religion all together. I mean, everyone is always trying to take religion out of EVERYTHING. That's one of the problems with this world, one of the many problems.
And that's just my opinion [img]smile.gif[/img]
Hehehe. And this is where I think religous arguements, especially when each side is at the way far end, never accomplish much. Religion is based totally around the concept of faith. Anything that can possibly counter it doesnt matter because one has to have faith. And science and logic dont recognize anything that cannot be explained or just assume they havent discovered the cause of it yet. You can use any bit of science to disprove nearly any religious idea but those that follow will simply profess their faith. Its a no-win discussion and makes me head feel like its going to implode [img]eek.gif[/img] LOL
Still, despite the fact that I too disagree with everything you said, Im glad we have kept it fairly civil. Although I would appreciate if someone out there who agrees with me would pipe in, I know Im not the only one out there with such opinions. Its lonely on this end [img]redface.gif[/img]