New Dafnis vids are up at www.vicfirth.com
Really great feel and phrasing.. I love this latin stuff..
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New Dafnis vids are up at www.vicfirth.com
Really great feel and phrasing.. I love this latin stuff..
Yeah man !!!
Cameron, thanks for posting this !
Check Dafnis out. 4 great tunes with his quintette at the
Montreal Drum Fest last Nov. 13 !
i really should pick up his cd!
You may want to watch Ry Cooder?s "Buena Vista Social Club", an amazing film about living in La Habana, including some GREAT performances from some of the most influencial cuban musicians. A must see.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, personaly I think that the US Guys takes the music very very serioulsy.Quote:
Originally posted by Henry II:
[QB]Yeah, in Cuba, they take the musical arts very seriously (unlike the U.S.) QB]
I'm a big fan of the US musicians, like most of Cuban Guys who comes in NYC, Miami, LA... For learning stuff that you can only learn in the USA.
Peace.
Don't be so quick to think you know about Cuba.
In Cuba they don't have a choice.
Musicians have to play all day long, and they barely get paid for it.
They are forced to rehearse over and over.
In addition, their knowledge of American music is limited to the kind that's fused with theirs. Like Latinjazz.
They don't have the resources we do which is why drummers like Dafnis don't play backbeat with a deep pocket or the proper feel and approach.
Dafnis' musicality and approach in cuban music and latin jazz is amazing. It has nothing to do with music being taken more seriously. Cuban citizens listen to what's popular in Cuba just like Americans listen to what's popular here. They don't listen to that creative music that musicians like Dafnis play.
They DO NOT train kids about polyrhythms. They simply play, listen, and learn by ear. They don't have names like 3:4. Remember, Cuban music does not get into real complex polyrhythms, like the kind found in Bulgarian and Indian styles.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 25, 2005 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Groovesmitty ]</font>
I guess you are from Cuba and you know how hard is really the life there...
As I don't know Cuba and the life there, I stop here my opinion.
Peace.
Yes, I have been there several times. I am not from there. Americans can go through Canada.
It's something everyone who loves real latin music should do.
Another technically amazing player who suffers from " because I can syndrome". Give me Ignacio Berroa, Steve Berrios, or Alex Acuna anyday. His ideas were not seamless. Again the compositions are not great, simply composed to showcase the drummer. I need more musical content in an amazing musician. Solos that communicate and speak music. Grooves that sit nice and easy and don't rush.
Somone mentioned Ry Cooder. Dafnis can learn a thing or two about musicality and groove from that album. Notice, those are the old cuban musicians, and their groove sits in an amazing place. Makes you feel good. Dafnis groove makes me feel like I just snorted 10lines of coke.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They are more dedicated and systematic about music training, and from a younger age, than in the U.S. I wasn't talking about the general Cuban population. The government provides that opportunity to kids who show promise. It's the same with Cuban dancers, and the arts generally, as well as Cuban athletes.Quote:
Originally posted by Groovesmitty:
Don't be so quick to think you know about Cuba.
In Cuba they don't have a choice.
Musicians have to play all day long, and they barely get paid for it.
They are forced to rehearse over and over.
In addition, their knowledge of American music is limited to the kind that's fused with theirs. Like Latinjazz.
They don't have the resources we do which is why drummers like Dafnis don't play backbeat with a deep pocket or the proper feel and approach.
Dafnis' musicality and approach in cuban music and latin jazz is amazing. It has nothing to do with music being taken more seriously. Cuban citizens listen to what's popular in Cuba just like Americans listen to what's popular here. They don't listen to that creative music that musicians like Dafnis play.
They DO NOT train kids about polyrhythms. They simply play, listen, and learn by ear. They don't have names like 3:4. Remember, Cuban music does not get into real complex polyrhythms, like the kind found in Bulgarian and Indian styles.
<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ December 25, 2005 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Groovesmitty ]</font></font>
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 25, 2005 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I liked it. Thanks for sharing your opinion, I guess.Quote:
Originally posted by Paraflam:
Another technically amazing player who suffers from " because I can syndrome". Give me Ignacio Berroa, Steve Berrios, or Alex Acuna anyday. His ideas were not seamless. Again the compositions are not great, simply composed to showcase the drummer. I need more musical content in an amazing musician. Solos that communicate and speak music. Grooves that sit nice and easy and don't rush.
Somone mentioned Ry Cooder. Dafnis can learn a thing or two about musicality and groove from that album. Notice, those are the old cuban musicians, and their groove sits in an amazing place. Makes you feel good. Dafnis groove makes me feel like I just snorted 10lines of coke.
Yeah, in Cuba, they take the musical arts very seriously (unlike the U.S.) and they train kids who want to play drums in polyrhythms as well as traditional rudiments from a very young age.
Obviously, he's been a huge benefactor of this kind of training.
These discussions appear often on HOD about which culture is the best for learning music.
The truth is that in North America (USA & Canada), we have such a melting pot of different cultures that we can "piggyback" on
and get the best of all styles of music to learn from.
Canadians and American musicians go to Cuba and other places to learn different ways of playing, sometimes only to add a fraction of these techniques to their playing. The same goes the other way around, where guys like Dafnis come to the States to add more to their playing .
Imagine how dull it would be if we all played the same style of drumming. Some us us groove more than others, some have the Latin thing down as if they came from a Latin Country, and so on.
The idea is to take as much information from musicians from varied cultural worlds. Drummers like Weckl play the Latin bag much better that 10 years ago. Why ? Because of the opportunity to hear so many styles coming together in our own back yards in recent years. Just ask Gregg Bissonette !
So, IMO, looking at the four video clips of Dafnis posted here, really gives us a chance to see and hear someone who is so different from most other jazz drummers.
Some think he is too busy when playing with his band, but hey, that's his style. I think that it's exciting to see someone of Dafnis' style, just like it was years ago with guys like Art Blakey.
And as in most posts here, do not judge a musician by a couple of video clips. The clips here are not balanced right, the drums come out too loud for the rest of the band. But, do buy the CD, About the Monks, where you will hear these tunes at their best.
And please don't bang Cuba. Our governments do not give us the truth about what is happening there !
Again, as knowledgable and technically proficient as he is, there are latin drummers with much deeper pockets. Negro for example.
Of course this is my opinion, but compare these drummers side by side and it's simple to hear. Give me more feel Dafnis! Something to hold on to. Some depth.
I wouldn't really say that Negro is the definition of pocket... now Ignacio, on the other hand, when i saw him live, his pocket knocked me out... he is so deep [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]
Joey Heredia, that is a guy with sick pocket too [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The truth is that, with few exceptions, the drummers that come out of Cuba blow American drummers away. Like it or lump it. I think I've explained the reason for it. I haven't met Dafnis Prieto, but, I have no doubt that the reason he left Cuba was not as much to expand his musical horizons as to escape Castro. And I for one don't rely on information from the Government about what is going on in Cuba.Quote:
Originally posted by Groovissimo:
These discussions appear often on HOD about which culture is the best for learning music.
The truth is that in North America (USA & Canada), we have such a melting pot of different cultures that we can "piggyback" on
and get the best of all styles of music to learn from.
Canadians and American musicians go to Cuba and other places to learn different ways of playing, sometimes only to add a fraction of these techniques to their playing. The same goes the other way around, where guys like Dafnis come to the States to add more to their playing .
Imagine how dull it would be if we all played the same style of drumming. Some us us groove more than others, some have the Latin thing down as if they came from a Latin Country, and so on.
The idea is to take as much information from musicians from varied cultural worlds. Drummers like Weckl play the Latin bag much better that 10 years ago. Why ? Because of the opportunity to hear so many styles coming together in our own back yards in recent years. Just ask Gregg Bissonette !
So, IMO, looking at the four video clips of Dafnis posted here, really gives us a chance to see and hear someone who is so different from most other jazz drummers.
Some think he is too busy when playing with his band, but hey, that's his style. I think that it's exciting to see someone of Dafnis' style, just like it was years ago with guys like Art Blakey.
And as in most posts here, do not judge a musician by a couple of video clips. The clips here are not balanced right, the drums come out too loud for the rest of the band. But, do buy the CD, About the Monks, where you will hear these tunes at their best.
And please don't bang Cuba. Our governments do not give us the truth about what is happening there !
Henry, are you out of your mind or just mentally challanged?
The drummers in Cuba blow American drummers away? At what? Cuban music, that's about it. There isn't one Cuban drummer who swings, including Ignacio. There isn't one Cuban drummer who can bring out the funk like Dennis or Derico. There isn't one drummer in Cuba who can handle the variety of music that session guys like Vinnie, Pelton, Jordan or Hass deal with everyday. Have you ever heard Dafnis play a second line groove? I have, and it sucked...Those guys kill their own music, but they can't even begin to be a top session player in NYC, LA, or Nashville.
That was the dumbest statement ever made on this board.
To say any group of drummers from one country blow another group drummers away from another is stupid. I want to see a Cuban drummer play a groove in 23 using 2-3 subdivisions like an all around american player. You'll never hear that. Your musical ignorance equalls your political ignorance.
And as far their dedication to music well, if Dafnis was learning all of those great musical devices at a young age in Cuba, I'd expect a bit more music, and a bit less cluttered silliness, out of him than what I've heard. Steve Berrios makes Dafnis look like a musical infant by playing one bar of Timba. Steve's a latino from Brooklyn. Giovanni Hidalgo is the best conguero in the world, he's Puerto Rican. Not cuban. He's also lived in the main land for most of his life.
You're also wrong about their systematic musical upbringing. There's very little system involved, and more about listening copying, and dancing. Go to Cuba Henry, sounds like you've never been. My third time will be this May.
On another note, I agree about the Dafnis groove, but those clips still killed me. He's a great latin drummer that never ceases to blow my mind in that style of latin.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 27, 2005 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]</font>
[img]graemlins/car.gif[/img] Run! [img]graemlins/plane.gif[/img]
Dafnis is great. I love him on the recent Caribbean Jazz Project stuff. I love that he doesn't play left foot clave and still sounds great!
I've seen him perform live with his group at the Zinc Bar in NYC, he played some of the music on these videos, I believe. I would label the music 'cerebral'.
He plays like the Cubans are coming to take him away, though, LOL!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Flab,Quote:
Originally posted by Flarobstix:
Henry, are you out of your mind or just mentally challanged?
The drummers in Cuba blow American drummers away? At what? Cuban music, that's about it. There isn't one Cuban drummer who swings, including Ignacio. There isn't one Cuban drummer who can bring out the funk like Dennis or Derico. There isn't one drummer in Cuba who can handle the variety of music that session guys like Vinnie, Pelton, Jordan or Hass deal with everyday. Have you ever heard Dafnis play a second line groove? I have, and it sucked...Those guys kill their own music, but they can't even begin to be a top session player in NYC, LA, or Nashville.
That was the dumbest statement ever made on this board.
To say any group of drummers from one country blow another group drummers away from another is stupid. I want to see a Cuban drummer play a groove in 23 using 2-3 subdivisions like an all around american player. You'll never hear that. Your musical ignorance equalls your political ignorance.
And as far their dedication to music well, if Dafnis was learning all of those great musical devices at a young age in Cuba, I'd expect a bit more music, and a bit less cluttered silliness, out of him than what I've heard. Steve Berrios makes Dafnis look like a musical infant by playing one bar of Timba. Steve's a latino from Brooklyn. Giovanni Hidalgo is the best conguero in the world, he's Puerto Rican. Not cuban. He's also lived in the main land for most of his life.
You're also wrong about their systematic musical upbringing. There's very little system involved, and more about listening copying, and dancing. Go to Cuba Henry, sounds like you've never been. My third time will be this May.
On another note, I agree about the Dafnis groove, but those clips still killed me. He's a great latin drummer that never ceases to blow my mind in that style of latin.
<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ December 27, 2005 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]</font></font>
First, I am supremely confident in my intellect and my political acumen. Second, I'm not going to argue with you about this subject. I'm speaking from personal experience and observation. However, I will say, in no uncertain terms, that you have no idea what you are talking about.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 27, 2005 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
I will say this. I saw him with Dave Samuels. The music was awful and cheesy, but Dafnis was awesome. I like that he avoids the left foot clave too.
Henry, you should quit while you're ahead. Everytime you attempt to support your invalid and ridicualous points, you look dumber and dumber. You have a lot of nerve. It's like comparing apples and oranges. The session drummers in the USA have no equals. That's why they are the most famous drummers in the world. Wake up man.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree...There have been quite a few far worse others over the last 3 years as well. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/party.gif[/img] [Don't ask me which ones they were...I've long been trying to forget...& I've succeeded greatly at it, including perhaps at least a couple of my own, much to my own pleasure. [img]wink.gif[/img] ]Quote:
That was the dumbest statement ever made on this board
Only on a public message board could a discussion about a muso [who's good at what style he excels at] turn into a borderline political argument...
I will say this to add to the [already] mix, though. Infidel Castro s*cks *ss, period. Much to the chagrin of the loony-tune-actors & the like who want to give he & the likes of him AWA Tookie a f'n Nobel Peace Prize. Yee-hawwww. There. Thanks...for my constitutioinal right to [reasonably [img]wink.gif[/img] ] unsanctioned free speech. [img]graemlins/party.gif[/img]
Dafnis is great at what he does. I also agree w the statements about the groove-feel sometimes feeling a bit wired. But guys like Tony & VC could be like this too in their coming up years...Horacio is also unbelievable. But again, he doesn't swing like Elvin, Hamilton, or Tain...but that's allright too; i also agree that DP is no joke, as do most in here.
I don't always see the need for looking for, finding, & pointing out a persons "shortcomings" in one area or genre when someone praises them in another for what they excel in, whether true or not. It kind of...well, i don't know...
To be honest, i haven't looked at the clips mentioned yet...is he trying to play swing in any of them?
Playing wise [more than curiousity or understanding wise], it doesn't matter to me what the circumstances were behind DP's expertise, as much as that he put the effort in playing enough to "get 'there'" [like anyone else who does so]. I would suppose that it's even more of a testament since life itself is apparently obviously not nearly as 'easy' overall in that country...
Everyone probably should automatically know that every guy isn't going to play every style or groove authentically pleasing to everyone's expectations or opinions %100. I said, probably should.
One man's treasure is another's trash.
To quote one of my fave past contributors to this board [PP; along w Pete Corona & many others]: "Eat the melon...spit out the seeds."
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 27, 2005 08:09 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not concerned about being ahead, Port. I said what I said because I think it's true, and I stand by every word of it. Further, other than ad hominem attacks, niether you nor any one else has said anything that refutes anything I've said. Certainly, the declamation that Ignacio can't swing doesn't support a credible argument. Comical maybe, credible, no.Quote:
Originally posted by PortJazz:
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
I will say this. I saw him with Dave Samuels. The music was awful and cheesy, but Dafnis was awesome. I like that he avoids the left foot clave too.
Henry, you should quit while you're ahead. Everytime you attempt to support your invalid and ridicualous points, you look dumber and dumber. You have a lot of nerve. It's like comparing apples and oranges. The session drummers in the USA have no equals. That's why they are the most famous drummers in the world. Wake up man.
Got_a_Match-Grip...
You said it all...
Thanks
Ah, thank goodness for HOD.
Otherwise I might never get to whatch "check out these cool videos" turn into a series of pointless personal attacks...
"Henry, you should quit while you're ahead. Everytime you attempt to support your invalid and ridicualous points, you look dumber and dumber."
"That was the dumbest statement ever made on this board"
"Henry, are you out of your mind or just mentally challanged?"
And, well, I dont even know how to describe statements like this:
"The session drummers in the USA have no equals."
- Sorry, I must have missed the 2005 'drummer rankings'.
"I want to see a Cuban drummer play a groove in 23 using 2-3 subdivisions like an all around american player. You'll never hear that."
- Ah yes, of course, playing in odd time signatures, a skill un obtainable by all of us born outside of the USA. I may aswell give up now.
Or perhaps not.
Now, i have never been to cuba. But even if I had been THREE TIMES! I probably wouldnt consider myself to be fully versed in the cultural and or political systems at work there.
Ahhh, HOD. I love it.
[img]tongue.gif[/img]
I think that you should also include this quote
"The truth is that, with few exceptions, the drummers that come out of Cuba blow American drummers away. Like it or lump it"
with the ones you've just posted
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're right. That was a dumb way to put it. I should have prefaced it with "IMHO."Quote:
Originally posted by bananajou:
I think that you should also include this quote
"The truth is that, with few exceptions, the drummers that come out of Cuba blow American drummers away. Like it or lump it"
with the ones you've just posted
yeah, that sounds a lot better, peace!
*sigh* Henry, thanks for not responding to the personal assaults.
Rob and Port, argue the topic please as opposed to insulting the posters. Groovesmitty managed to make some great points without the insults, try to do the same.
OT--I'm just reading one of William Gibson's recent novels (*Pattern Recognition*) in which one major feature is a hostboard much like ours, based about a mysterious set of video clips being released by an unknown artist. The novel concerns authenticity, orinality of art, the assimilation and commodification of new ideas and a lot of the 'freshness' debates we have here. It's actually hilarous; Gibson has nailed hostboard dynamics quite well, down to the particular kind of (sometimes) intellectual/aesthetic turf war flaming that goes on, and the shadowy lurkers watching the whole thing like a fishbowl.
I got a smile a couple days ago reading a passage where participant Parkaboy flames another, dubbed "Mama Anarchia" for starting a fight by spouting too much Po-Mo theory: "This always happens when we forget that this site is only here because Ivy is willing to expend the time and energy to keep it here, and neither Ivy nor most of the rest of us enjoy it when you or anyone else starts yelling." etc. Sound familiar? LOL
I won't touch the politics, but I liked Dafnis' playing a lot. Thanks for those clips. Yes, chopsy but not the same kind of chopsy I'm used to, and I would like to learn more about it. I love watching that particular way he plays. I *really* dig the sparkle kit in those clips too!
Peace all. [img]cool.gif[/img]
American drummers are better than Cuban drummers. There are more in America and they are better. American drummers are technically better than Cuban drummers playing latin styles, as there is a lot more research done in the states about it than in Cuba.
Blow me...
Hi,
Yeah, I must say that I like how plays Daphnis, I find him pretty fresh.
Thanks for the link.
Peace.
Haha, that's spot on Spaceotter. While nearly every member here (including myself) has been caught in one/many heated discussions, it's always useful to keep that quote in mind.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're a Dolphins fan too? [img]cool.gif[/img] Cool!Quote:
Originally posted by Rodge:
Hi,
Yeah, I must say that I like how plays Daphnis, I find him pretty fresh.
Thanks for the link.
Peace.
This talk about American drummers being better than whoever is, IMHO, malinformed. We do what we do and they do what they do, and hopefully it's all good. That's like saying English is better than Spanish. Nonsense -- they are just 2 different languages.
Those of us who are serious about the instrument know the roles Afro Cuban, as well as South American and West African, rhythms have on what we take for granted in our own playing.
Those of us who are serious, and who regularly deal with drummers who have come here from Cuba, soon become aware of their generally extensive legit musical education, as well as the greasy grooves they bring to the table.
Ignorance and arrogance are not conducive to growth. Those who persist in holding such attitudes would do well to contact Chuck Silverman on his web site and arrange to take some classes in Havana under his aegis.
OK, there were just too many "flamed" comments to get to the video. I don't want to say that any geographic drummer is better than another. although in my experience at PIT, the euros didn't have a big enough backbeat. other than that, they were a ton more deliberate in their playing and had a ton more knowledge about jazz drummers.
anyway, I'll go back and check out the video so I can bang on his playing...lol...kidding
Have you guys notices the frying pan on his right side ? In the firest video clip, you will see Dafnis playing on it !!!
http://stuff.dafnisprieto.com/welcome/dafnis_1_c.jpg
I thought all American kids started out on pots and pans.....
except for me... i started by banging on my thick high school text books with my paint brushes... but soon realized that i had to quit since I had snapped all of my brushes.... what an idiot. hahaha
[img]cool.gif[/img]
Happy B-Day Henry! And Happy New Year guys.
Hah! See there! Now when was the last time you saw an American drummer play the fry pan? (Run's for cover).