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No. If we truly love God, we will obey Him. And only truly believing and loving God will set you free.
1 John 2:3
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
1 John 2:4-6
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
All sins are equal in God's eye.
All Christians sin because they are not perfect.
So they're all not going to heaven?
They claim to know Jesus, but they sin anyway. So where is line, isn't purposely lying as bad as killing someone then? A lie slipping out wouldn't be as bad, because it's not intentional, right?
Every person on death row who has picked up a Bible and claimed to know Jesus after that is still not going to heaven?
People often ask why good people will still not go to Heaven or why doing our best is not good enough. Here's what I've found.
It is not enough to be good and help people, or even to do the best you can, because the best you can is not good enough. It is because even a little imperfection makes it impossible for us to live with God. And none of us is perfect. That's why the only way to get to Heaven is to accept Christ.
It's all summed up in John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
His blood cleanses us of our imperfections and makes it able for us to go to Heaven. Psalm 5:4 says, " You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell." (We being wicked. Romans 3:10 says, "As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;"). We can see this because of the law... which includes the 10 commandments. (See Exodus 20). Did you know that if you look at someone with lust, you have broken one of the ten commandments by committing adultery in your heart? It is also possible to commit murder in your heart. Do you always keep the Sabbath? Have you ever, even once told a lie, stolen, or said God's name in vain? I know I have. That makes us sinners, and imperfect, and unworthy.
Hebrews 9:14 says, "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" (Showing that Christ's blood cleanses us.)
This is all to say: we siners can be cleaned and then accepted into Heaven. It is up to us, though. It is our choice, and ours alone. 2 Peter 2:9 says, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." God does not want anyone to die!
Following human rules will not help us, either. Colossians 2:20-23 says "Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."
Under those same beliefs, it's a waste to spend most of your life doing your best.
You can go on a killing spree. As long as you see the err of your ways afterward and accept Christ into your heart, you're a good person. You go to heaven. Isn't that right?
No. You take everything and twist it around. That's not what is said at all.
It is simply thus:
Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Thus even people who have previously murdered will be saved if they truly repent and turn to Christ. But if you truly repent and turn to Christ, you will not continue to murder on purpose. You will try your best to do God's will. You will not always do His will, but you will try your best because you love Him and want to please Him. Were it not for the blood of Christ, though, we would not go to Heaven for we do all sin. Christ's blood has saved us and washed us clean of our sin. As we grow in Him we sin less and less because we are becoming more and more like Him. Will we ever stop sinning completely? Not on this earth. But we will naturally become better people because of our salvation.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
So, once you've repented and turned to Christ you will try your best and thus slowly improve. (Though beating someone up is an improvement over murdering. Still wouldn't want people doing that.) But before that it's still a free-for-all? I still don't get how "not always doing His will" as a devout Christian makes a difference between using His name in vain and blowing up a house. Couldn't sinning "less and less" just mean shooting people less often? Ok, so your simple statement isn't so simple for me. Someone who is very belligerent could be "trying their best" but still hurting people every day.
Gah! That seems so messed up to me to believe that hurtful people should be rewarded but kind people should be punished cuz they're not buddies with Jesus.
And the Romans quote, if it's eternal life with Jesus or simply death, does that mean there's no **** ?
When they say "death" they mean **** ...er...Hades.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry if I'm not explaining this right. Let me try again.Quote:
Gah! That seems so messed up to me to believe that hurtful people should be rewarded but kind people should be punished cuz they're not buddies with Jesus.
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY INTO HEAVEN. John 14:6...that way is Jesus. That is because of Psalm 5:4...no evil can dwell with God. We're all evil. Even the best person in the world is just not good enough. No one...Christian or not...deserves to go to Heaven. But God loves us. He does not want anyone to die (2 Peter 2:9). So He sent His Son for everyone. It is up to them to choose the one way to Heaven. Many people blame God for not letting the "good" into Heaven while letting the "bad" in or for not just letting everyone in. There is no one who is good. (Romans 3:10). There is no one worthy of Heaven. Psalm 5:4 says You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell." It does not say God does not want the wicked to dwell with Him, but that the Holiness of God demands that all who stand before Him are perfect. We cannot be perfect. It is impossible for us to be perfect and have free will. So... God died for us.
It is like this: God does not stop us from going to Heaven...we stop ourselves. God has flung the gates open wide, but we will not let ourselves go in. We will not accept the gateway so we will not go in. This is not God's fault. It is our own. Anyone who does not go to Heaven makes the choice not to go to Heaven. Of course, they have a little help...Satan is constantly working to convince you not to believe in Jesus. Satan wants us to die (go to **** ...Hades). God wants us to live. There are only two options here, and we must choose between the two. It is ultimately OUR choice.
Becoming a Christian does not mean we stop sinning, just that our sins are washed clean. It does mean we try our best not to sin and to do God's will. We are to bear fruit. Good works do not lead to salvation; salvation leads to good works. Why don't good works lead to salvation? Because all of our good works are not good enough. Isaiah 64:6 says, "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."
No one is being "punished" if they don't deserve it. We all deserve it. The "reward" you are talking about is what is undeserved...but it is a free gift given to all. Some people return the gift unopened. Is that the fault of the One who gives it? Of course not!
As my Study Bible says: why are we angry about there being only one way into Heaven? We should be grateful that this way is sure.
And how are we saved? Romans 10:9-10 says, "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."
I think what you've posted justifies but does not explain the problem I see. Someone who gets into fights and otherwise makes life miserable for those around them can truly believe all the God stuff and go to heaven. Someone who devotes their life to building houses for the homeless but is not Christian is going to hades. What you've said tells me that this is the Christian belief. You're saying that because there's anyway of anyone going to heaven I should see this arrangement as a good thing. You're saying the alternatives is now who choose God go to heaven, or no one goes to heaven. I still think it's messed up. I think both those alternatives **** . I think for the most part, people are different and have their reasons for doing many things. I don't think anyone deserves either fate, really. But I especially don't think someone who does mostly good should go to hades.
I think that a true Christian is not going to always go around starting fights like you said. Even if they did, though, they would still go to gHeaven if they accepted Jesus...truly accepted Jesus...and tried to do His will. That is because their sins are washed clean. And all those good works anyone does are the filthy rags before God. Anyone who does "mostly" good things must also be doing some bad things. This means they are not perfect, thus they cannot dwell with God.
The point is: we all deserve to go to Hades. You, me, Mother Teresa, etc. But God lovingly gave us eternal life. So...it's really all up to us. No one has a reason for not believing in God that is legitimate. Likely the think they have a reason or they think that reason is legitimate, but in all likelyhood it was put there by the devil. The devil lies. Satan is evil. He wants us to go to Hades. God wants us to go to Heaven. God's system is perfect and is not at all messed up. It is more than we deserve. It is good.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 16, 2006 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Tra ]</font>
How do you explain that no one in North America was Christian before Europeans came here? You think an entire continent just ignored signs? And how were they supposed to get the Bible? Were there a few that just fell from heaven, but no one picked them up? Or did they all go to hades because they had the misfortune of not having written language?
Yes, I think there were signs that were ignored. Everyone had and has the opportunity to learn of God. It doesn't have to be through written language. It can be through dreams, visions, missionaries, etc. God is moving in the world. He will make Himself known to all nations before He comes again.
Revelations 7:9 "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."
Revelations 5:9-10 "And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
I'm sorry, I have a question.
What happens to those who can't accept Jesus as their savior? Infants who are stillborn or die very young, aborted fetuses, people who are severely mentally handicapped or in comas... do they not go to heaven?
I believe that these are still given a chance to accept Jesus. Basically, there is no one who "can't" accept Jesus. Babies who die (whether inside or out of the womb) are still loved by God. He wouldn't take them or let them die without letting them have a chance to know Jesus and be Saved.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Alright, let's obey god! Because his word is always true:Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
No. If we truly love God, we will obey Him. And only truly believing and loving God will set you free.
1 John 2:3
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
1 John 2:4-6
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20
"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5
"... the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecclesiastes 1:4
"... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2Peter 3:10
-
"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30
"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18
Or how about this? Ever sinned with your right hand, Tra? Maybe squashed a bug with it, therefore taking life? Did you ever see a guy with your right eye and think "Wow, he's hot." AH! LUST! Well, know you know what to do!
"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into **** . And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into **** . (Mat 5:29-30 NIV)
[img]graemlins/whatever.gif[/img]
Put those in context.
And know when something is a figure of speech.
That said: In context, you can easily explain anything in the Bible that seems to contradict itself. Even when the Bible "contradicts itself" it is true and right.
Why does no one ever talk about the consistency of the Bible. How, even though parts of it were written hundreds and thousands of years apart it still tells the same story? This is because it was all written with those filled with the Holy Spirit and guided by the hand of God.
As Tra said, though the Bible may seem to contradict itself in parts, on further reading, you will find the answers, and things will make more sense. Also, I have found that the are so few passages of the Bible that really contradict themselves, and so many that make complete sense, yet only the few contradictory ones are brought up claiming the Bible "doesn't make sense." But what about the many that do make sense. Are those to be overlooked? No! The Bible should be read as a book in a whole, and not tear it apart, just looking for the parts that don't make sense to tear the Bible down.
~Emma
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But it doesn't... the only stories in it that are consistent are the ones written by the same author. You of all people should know that.Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
Put those in context.
And know when something is a figure of speech.
That said: In context, you can easily explain anything in the Bible that seems to contradict itself. Even when the Bible "contradicts itself" it is true and right.
Why does no one ever talk about the consistency of the Bible. How, even though parts of it were written hundreds and thousands of years apart it still tells the same story? This is because it was all written with those filled with the Holy Spirit and guided by the hand of God.
No...it's all consistent...of course it was all really written by those guided by God, so your statement that the consistency is in those things written by the same author is true, I suppose.
Have you even read the Bible? ALL of the Bible? Have you read Acts where Stephen talks about the History of the Jewish people and it is all consistent with what happened in the Old Testament? How about the Gospels where Jesus fulfills ALL the prophecies found in Isaiah or Jeremiah?
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 12, 2007 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Tra ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*pictures "God" guiding someones hand* BWAHAHAHAHA!Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
No...it's all consistent...of course it was all really written by those guided by God, so your statement that the consistency is in those things written by the same author is true, I suppose.
And what if those people who wrote the bible aren't guided by God? You have no proof that they are.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 12, 2007 09:49 PM: Message edited by: zozey ]</font>
I know they were guided by God. I have faith. I have NO doubt.
I have doubt. And the fact that you have no evidence makes me have even more doubt.
What exactly do you want? A neon sign in the sky? (Oh wait, the sunset.) A written letter from God? (Oh wait, the Bible.) How about seeing God Himself (oh wait, Jesus was seen by many many people).
Faith.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right, right. Because there could only be a sunrise if there were a God. Because there's definite proof that Jesus not only existed but was the son of God.Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
What exactly do you want? A neon sign in the sky? (Oh wait, the sunset.) A written letter from God? (Oh wait, the Bible.) How about seeing God Himself (oh wait, Jesus was seen by many many people).
Faith.
Please.
Yup!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That proof being...?Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
Yup!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That proof being...?Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
Yup!
*crickets chirp as we wait for an actual answer from Tra*
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by the happy heathen:
*crickets chirp as we wait for an actual answer from Tra*
Tra is right. The Bible is full of proof that Jesus is the Son of God and the savior of the World. I have posted some information on this in the Evidence post. And it is true that if there were no God, there would be no sunset, there would be no earth, there wouldn't be anything. While you may find that hard to believe, it is the truth, and I am really hoping and praying that you will be accepting of this and open your mind to this, and be willing to really hear the truth, and accept it.
~Emma
There is no God. There are no devils, no angels, no heaven or h/ell. There is only our natural world and we can choose to make that world a better place by living ethically or make it a worse place by being intolerant, bigoted, irresponsible, and closed-minded.
While you may find that hard to believe, it is the truth, and I am really hoping that you will be accepting of this and open your mind to this, and be willing to really hear the truth, and accept it.
Funny, ain't it? how I can use the exact same words to show you MY truth.
Except your truth isn't backed up by any proof. Ours is backed up by the Bible, nature, and faith.
Tra, I realize you have a cement block around your brain and everything I say to you is pointless, but I'm going to say this anyway. Having "faith" that your opinion is true does not make it true. Jeez, if the world worked that way, imagine the courtroom scenes. "Your Honor, I have no evidence, but I have faith that my client is not guilty." "Oh okay then. Let him go free."
Having "faith" that the bible is true does not make it true.
Fitting the laws of nature into what you want to be true does not make your statements about "intelligent design" valid.
And you know what? Even if your whole ideology is true, I'd still reject it. There's just too much in your holy book I don't agree with, and I think standing by my moral convictions is far more important than appeasing some dictator God.
<<< There is no God. There are no devils, no angels, no heaven or h/ell. There is only our natural world and we can choose to make that world a better place by living ethically or make it a worse place by being intolerant, bigoted, irresponsible, and closed-minded. >>>
So, if you believe that where do you turn when the whole world turns upside down on you? What did you do on 9/11? What did you do when the life of someone you loved hung in the balance? Who was there for you when all humans failed you?
I feel truly sorry for Atheists. It must be a very lonely life with no one to count on, and no hope for a better tomorrow. [img]frown.gif[/img]
So, if you believe that where do you turn when the whole world turns upside down on you? What did you do on 9/11? What did you do when the life of someone you loved hung in the balance?
I turn to people: people I know, and artists who make life beautiful and tolerable in spite of its harshness. You can tell me you can't always count on people, and that's true--but you can't always count on your God, either. After all, he just might sweep you away in a hurricane if it's on his "to do" list that day.
I feel truly sorry for Atheists. It must be a very lonely life with no one to count on, and no hope for a better tomorrow.
And I feel sorry for people who are so pessimistic they don't recognize or appreciate all the goodness in THIS life, THIS world and so many of their fellow humans. Human beings can actually accomplish things to make a better tomorrow. A God who needs to be worshipped, placated and pleaded with before he'll agree not to crush you with a tree today isn't so dependable.
Furthermore, it seems to me the epitome of loneliness = spending your time talking to some Guy in the Sky who isn't even there.
<<< I turn to people: people I know, and artists who make life beautiful and tolerable in spite of its harshness. You can tell me you can't always count on people, and that's true--but you can't always count on your God, either. After all, he just might sweep you away in a hurricane if it's on his "to do" list that day. >>>
While I also turn to art, especially the written word, to heal the wounds of this world, there has to be something to give you hope that beyound all the bad is good and reason. And He's not "MY" God, God belongs to everyone, even people who don't believe the way I do. I think somewhere along the line you got a very misconcieved idea of God. In my view, it's because of God we can weather the hurricane and know that these obstacles put in our way are not in vain, nor are they insurmountable.
<<< And I feel sorry for people who are so pessimistic they don't recognize or appreciate all the goodness in THIS life, THIS world and so many of their fellow humans. Human beings can actually accomplish things to make a better tomorrow. A God who needs to be worshipped, placated and pleaded with before he'll agree not to crush you with a tree today isn't so dependable. >>
Again, you have a misconception of most Christians there. By and large, it's the Christians I know that are the happiest people. And I find your statement kind of offenisve because I think there is SO MUCH beauty and goodness in this world. And I do think one person can make a difference. Can I use one of my all time favorite quotes on faith here? Trust me, once you see where it's from, your head won't explode and you can truly appreciate it [img]smile.gif[/img]
"If life teaches us anything at all, it teaches us that there are so many happy endings that the man who does not believe in God needs his rationality called into serious judgement."
- Stephen King, from the novel "IT"
Isn't that just awesome? Then again, I am a HUGE King fan, so obviously I love it. [img]wink.gif[/img]
<< Furthermore, it seems to me the epitome of loneliness = spending your time talking to some Guy in the Sky who isn't even there. >>
How do you know God isn't there?
This is why I believe and have always believed in God, it's just been the religious part that has changed with the years really: You can take science and argue the universe down to a single grain of dust or a single atom or molecule that started the universe, and then you have to ask: How did it get there?
So honestly science doesn't come in conflict with my faith because they could prove the universe's birth a million times over with a definitve answer why the universe began in hte first place.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh-ho! Great the BIBLE!Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
Except your truth isn't backed up by any proof. Ours is backed up by the Bible, nature, and faith.
Emma, do you realize that you haven't actually quoted any evidence from the bible? What is it?
I notice no-one's replied to my thread since I last visited. You know why I bet that it? BECAUSE YOU CAN'T THINK OF A RESPONSE. READ IT. There's no reason we couldn't have a sunset without a God.
Ok, on the one hand you are arguing that there is no God (or if there is He's not all-loving)because of all the evil in the world. On the other hand you are arguing that we Christians don't see the good in the world now. Hmm...
As for faith...no, faith does not make anything true. Something that is true is true, regardless of what anyone thinks about it. Like God and the Bible.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1. I'm not arguing that there's no God because of all the bad. I'm just saying you're wrong that there's SO much good in the world!Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
[QB]Ok, on the one hand you are arguing that there is no God (or if there is He's not all-loving)because of all the evil in the world. On the other hand you are arguing that we Christians don't see the good in the world now. Hmm...
2. Come on! When did I EVER say that Christians don't see the good in the world?
<< 1. I'm not arguing that there's no God because of all the bad. I'm just saying you're wrong that there's SO much good in the world!
2. Come on! When did I EVER say that Christians don't see the good in the world? >>
1. I don't think Tra is wrong, I think there is alot of good and beauty in this world. Some moments I find so much beauty around me that I feel like crying. Sometimes it's just driving through town with all the lights on at night and singing along to my favorite song, other times it's sitting around the kitchen table with my family eating and laughing. Honestly I think we're conditioned to see the evil in the world because there certainly are some very bad things happening on this planet.
A quote...no it's not the Bible or anything to be taken as gospel, but it sums up why I believe and I think it's one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. Definetly something I try to remember:
"If life teaches us anything it all, it teaches us that there are so many happy endings that the man who believes there is no God needs his rationality called into serious judgement."
- Stephen King, as written in "IT"
Now, I know King's not a religious icon, but he's one awesome guy and guess what...also a Christian! Methodist, to be exact.
2. No, you didn't say Christians don't see the good in the world. The Happy Heathen did make some noises to the effect though, which was what I was responding to above. [img]smile.gif[/img]