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Does anyone know of a sure fire way to tell if an AG doll is pre or post mattel? My daughter has a Molly doll that I purchased after 1998 I can't remember exactly what year, but she has the softer vinyl and softer brown eyelashes instead of black. The dolls I have purchased more recently for my girls have black stiff eyelashes and harder vinyl. Can anyone help me here? I can PM photos if necesary. I guess it doesn't really make a difference, but I was just wondering.
Email me photos. I can tell for sure. I need her face close up and her body nakie.
I e-mailed you photos I hope they are clear enough.
Pre-Mattel, no doubt.
The eyes and lashes, the body type and the hair give her away.
If I had to date her I would say about 91 or 92.
She is gorgeous, congratulations!
Thanks!
How can you tell if a doll is Pre or Post Mattel?
<font color="#051E50" size="1">[ April 11, 2005 09:10 PM: Message edited by: dolllover ]</font>
I can tell by assessing a number of things:
body color
presence of body tag
hair color
eye overall look and color
eyelashes
hair cut (ends cut straight or tapered)
neck marks
overall look of doll.
I have a few of each vintage, for example a white bodied Molly, 1st issue flesh body molly, and new Molly and comparing them I can get a fair date based on my dolls.
Has anyone ever wrote a book about collecting these dolls and dating them, etc.? It would be great if someone did! There are a lot of knowledgable people right here! I wonder if Pleasant Rowland would ever be interested in advising on the subject. I really wish we were collecting when she was still running the company. I feel like we missed out on something really great! [img]frown.gif[/img]
Barbara, I feel the same way. But I try to concentrate on what we do have. We can't change the past. I did not have the interest or the money when Pleasant was running the company. I did not even know about these dolls till 1996. But I just try to focus on collecting a nice collection for me and my daughter. But mostly I just enjoy the dolls and enjoy watching Kaitlin play with her dolls.
Can you give more information on the neck marks? Mostly I want to know why this would determine age - I've heard many times that it does, but a look at our doll family leaves me in doubt:
We have 12 dolls, six of which I know are Mattel, and six I know are PM. I know this because of when I purchased them, as well as things like eye lashes. The neck marks vary on all of them. - here is the breakdown:
Felicity - last batch of PM fall 2002 - mark behind ear, medium company name preceded by copywrite. no numbers.
Felicity - 1st batch of M shipped 12/31/02 medium company name, preceded by copywrite , '10H9' below.
Josefina - M December 2003 - no ear mark, tiny company name preceded by copywrite no numbers
Kirsten - PM unknown date ear mark, small company name, copywrie above. no numbers.
Addy - PM unknown date. earmark. Large name with copywrite above and in front , and '17H9' below
Addy - M fall of 2003 earmark, Large name with Copywrite above and in front and 8H9 below
Samantha - PM -unknown date, earmark, small company name with copywrite above. no number.
Samantha - PM unknown date earmark, small company name, copywrite above, and no number.
Kit, - M, fall of 2002, no earmark, medium name with copywritein front. '55H9' below.
Molly, - M, december 2004, earmark, medium company name with copywrite in front, no number.
Kailey, - M Spring 2004, no earmark, medium company name preceded by copywrite, no number.
Some of the name marks are regular and even and some have letters that are wonky. Some are printed deeply and others only lightly.
From what I know about molds, the randomness of the above is par for the course. Molds are replaced as they wear out, and when a company is sold molds go with the move. Some companies use consistant marks to help guard against counterfieting, but either PC didn't do this or they have a more complicated system of recognizing counterfeits. I can't imagine how, because neither even nor jiggly letters indicates squat , some have ear marks and othes none, and the copywrite floats around anywhere near the company name. There is no consistancy within one type of doll, or one company or even within a single year.
For the record, all my dolls came directly from AG, or else from antique dealers who had AG furnishings that went with the doll. The one exception came from Maria of Just Magic, and obviously she's a trustworthy source.
The numbers probably indicate the mold number. Since head molds often are on a branch, there might have been 2, 3, 4, 6 or 8 heads on a branch, and maybe only the first head is stamped, for quality control. Since half or mine are stamped, I am guessing these would be a branch of two. Anyone else care to post their numbers and we can see if this is likely? Maybe we'll find some twins [img]smile.gif[/img]
Anyone have a better guess as to what the numbers mean? Okay, how about that ear mark? Is it the artist's signature? It's light enough it might not show up on all dolls but I have no half marks - they either have it or not. Perhaps it is a way of checking how well the details came out?
Interesting. So the tags have been around since Felicity was a newbie? Mine are all untagged, except for the M ones. This includes my late PM Lissie. Boy am I ever confused!
I'm sorry I am not better at importing photos. But maybe I'll improve and send some of my more myserious subjects at some point.
Thanks - what sort of things did your vendor make?
We did the color seps printing and mailing for the catalog and printed hang tags and product leaflets. I saw all of the color match samples and many protorypes used for photography, printing and proofing.
I have Lindsey and Kailey both purchased directly from AG. Sorry I can't remember exactly when I purchased them but think it was soon after each was released. Both have the "ear mark" along with the company name. Kailey has numbers 51C3 and Lindsey has 4H9.
Okay, now I am frisking the poor girls for their body tags and body color. They must have seen me coming and most dressed in one piece suits - overalls, and such. Tsk. Okay, here they are :
Felicity PM - no tag, dark yellow tan body -shy girl - had on both her stays and Josefina's undies, plus her travel dress. Sorry, Lissie!
Felicity M - tag, says 2008 medium fleshtone body
Josefina, M 2 tags sewn together one says 3371, and the other is stamped HO3 (an inspector tag? )dark fleshtone
Kirsten PM no tag yellow body
Addy PM - no tag light putty (almost beige) colored body
Addy M - tag says 2008 dark almost pink cocoa colored body
Samantha PM - no tag med pinkish beige body
Samantha PM - no tag, light yellow beige body
Kit M tag says 2008 med pinkish beige body
Molly M no tag darkish yellowish tan body
Kailey M - tag says 2008 med pinkish beige body
12 dolls, and 12 different shades of flesh. the closest were a PM and two M's bought several years apart. My guess is they don't try to match skin tones much, and that they buy a broadcloth that noone tries to match dye lots on.
My verdict - neither of these is such a good way to date either. It looks like PM did not tag, and M did, but our Molly has none, and she is the most recent purchase. Must have skipped that step. I would say not to trust that just because a doll has no tag it is PM.
What aboutthe bdy color though? I know the firwst ones were white, but what about once they tinted them - is there any way to date them then for sure? I woudl not trust a handful of examples, based on my 12 - too many variables.
What is the hair cut difference? I two PM Sam's with blunt cut hair. oOn one it's also quite short, but does not look like anyone cut it - it's feathered on the ends, not a scissor look. The other has shorter hair than the new Sams.
The big wig difference I see is texture. Mattel wigs are shinier and more combable - they look better longer. They do not get brittle and look like straw, like some of the PM wigs. Some - Kirsten's, Samanthas, and Molly's seem to be worse in this respect from whatI've seen in our own and all the dolls of people we know. We maintain ours wiht baby oil, but that attracts dust and probably could attract dust mites that might eventually eat the hair - I think it'is best to shampoo hair that is oiled occassionally.
Since suppliers change in any business, it is reasonable to expect things like eye color also might have changed over the years even before M took over.
The head of CS told me they use a great number of factories and each makes dolls that look a little different. She also said the real expert on these dolls ( in part because she sees all the flaws, booboos and quirks) is the head of the hospital. Her name is Natasha, if anyone wants to write her a letter. I guess you'd address it to the PC hospital.
Can you give more information on the neck marks? Mostly I want to know why this would determine age - I've heard many times that it does, but a look at our doll family leaves me in doubt:
We have 12 dolls, six of which I know are Mattel, and six I know are PM. I know this because of when I purchased them, as well as things like eye lashes. The neck marks vary on all of them. - here is the breakdown:
Felicity - last batch of PM fall 2002 - mark behind ear, medium company name preceded by copywrite. no numbers.
Felicity - 1st batch of M shipped 12/31/02 medium company name, preceded by copywrite , '10H9' below.
Josefina - M December 2003 - no ear mark, tiny company name preceded by copywrite no numbers
Kirsten - PM unknown date ear mark, small company name, copywrie above. no numbers.
Addy - PM unknown date. earmark. Large name with copywrite above and in front , and '17H9' below
Addy - M fall of 2003 earmark, Large name with Copywrite above and in front and 8H9 below
Samantha - PM -unknown date, earmark, small company name with copywrite above. no number.
Samantha - PM unknown date earmark, small company name, copywrite above, and no number.
Kit, - M, fall of 2002, no earmark, medium name with copywritein front. '55H9' below.
Molly, - M, december 2004, earmark, medium company name with copywrite in front, no number.
Kailey, - M Spring 2004, no earmark, medium company name preceded by copywrite, no number.
Some of the name marks are regular and even and some have letters that are wonky. Some are printed deeply and others only lightly.
From what I know about molds, the randomness of the above is par for the course. Molds are replaced as they wear out, and when a company is sold molds go with the move. Some companies use consistant marks to help guard against counterfieting, but either PC didn't do this or they have a more complicated system of recognizing counterfeits. I can't imagine how, because neither even nor jiggly letters indicates squat , some have ear marks and othes none, and the copywrite floats around anywhere near the company name. There is no consistancy within one type of doll, or one company or even within a single year.
For the record, all my dolls came directly from AG, or else from antique dealers who had AG furnishings that went with the doll. The one exception came from Maria of Just Magic, and obviously she's a trustworthy source.
The numbers probably indicate the mold number. Since head molds often are on a branch, there might have been 2, 3, 4, 6 or 8 heads on a branch, and maybe only the first head is stamped, for quality control. Since half or mine are stamped, I am guessing these would be a branch of two. Anyone else care to post their numbers and we can see if this is likely? Maybe we'll find some twins [img]smile.gif[/img]
Anyone have a better guess as to what the numbers mean? Okay, how about that ear mark? Is it the artist's signature? It's light enough it might not show up on all dolls but I have no half marks - they either have it or not. Perhaps it is a way of checking how well the details came out?
I have seen well over a thousand dolls working for a vendor of PC and have gotten good at dating them based on what I have seen from 1986-1992 and as a consumer thereafter. My only expertise is in telling PM's from M's and rough dating. The bodies went from white to light tan to an orangy tan to a beige color and were fairly consistent from 1990-1992 in that progression, Care is taken to match limbs to flesh. Tags came about with the introduction of some early Lissie's and have a West German origin mark on them. I think at some point they used multiple factories and the consistency sort of went out the window. The best indicators for me are the face, face paint and the overall look of the doll.
If you send me pix I can see what I can do.