Is Vinnie Past His Prime?

Just watching the Joan Rivers clips reminded me of how formidable pre-Sting matched grip Vinnie was. All the recent talk about the pending release of Vinnie's turn with the Buddy Rich band DVD reminded me of the fiery playing he was capable of back then: early 90s with Holdsworth, Corea, Cuccurullo, Big Drum et al. I'm not suggesting Vinnie is like an aging boxer who's lost his youthful punch, but there is a fire and energy that diminish with age. Also I am aware that currently Vinnie's moving his metric modulation thing forward, among other concepts, and has played some smoking live shit with Karizma and other ad hoc fusion bands early this century.

But did he have a prime?

If so, is he past it?

Or is it higher highs ahead?

Opinions, please.

looks like nobody wants to touch this one! [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/wonder.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

I think that in the past years Vinnie may have reached a point where he thought he has less to proove to his listening audience or even himself. While I have nothing to critisize about his playing at the moment, it could be that AT TIMES he settles for "less is more" and really focuses on the groove. Just my opinion.

I agree with suspiria. Vinnie has swapped the ferrari for a bentley ( so to speak).

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Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
Vinnie has swapped the ferrari for a bentley ( so to speak).

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's a great way to explain the situation.

i thought the same thing after viewing the JR tapes, and some of his older clinic stiff.i would have to say there is DEFINITLEY a drop off in his agression, fire, velocity in which he attacks the kit....no question. but i still here new 'chops' coming out of this guy. he remains like an 'open channel'..... streaming with endless creativity. just not hitting as hard.
i have to say (personally) that older stuff does bring my heart rate up just a bit more than the new while watching it. i love watching him be master of his domain....playing whatever the hell his mind can dream up.....damn!

A corollary would be Steve Gadd's current less-is-more-groove-I-don't-play-Nite-Sprite-licks-anymore. At the Gadd clinic last week in Dallas (really at the Richardson High School auditorium) Steverino demonstrated before a crowd of three or four hundred people that he still could damn well light 'em up whenever he feels like it.

Fortunately to this day Vinnie has not eschewed his chops; but it isn't like it was a decade or so ago.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 10, 2005 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Five Eight ]</font>

Personally, I love all the 'old' Vinnie stuff, but his newer stuff shows even more depth. I love what he played on that Cavemen record and the Richard Bona stuff too.

I don't think he has lost anything, but has definitely changed as a person, which is reflected in his playing. I actually enjoy the newer stuff like Jing Chi, Karizma, etc. to old Zappa stuff most of the time, but it's of course personal opinion.

The more I think about it the more I agree with Lennon's assessment of Elvis: "He was never the same after he got out of the Army." (Hear hear, John, I agree.)

Like maybe Vinnie was not the same after he got out of Sting's band. [img]confused.gif[/img]

Not that he didn't lay down some chops to be reckoned with once he took the gig with Stink. [img]wink.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
I agree with suspiria. Vinnie has swapped the ferrari for a bentley ( so to speak).

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree, or Lamborghini for a Rolls Royce.

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

All the studio work with the Nashville stuff as of late, and whatnot, may have something to do with it. Since he left Sting he has been on over 200+ albums... as opposed to the only 70 that he did in the previous 20 years. He has become more of a 'studio guy' and maybe that has changed his mentality a tad bit... well, it would HAVE TO in some little way if you did that much of a certain type of work in such a little amount of time.

Your approach would have to differ from before because this is the hat that you now are choosing to wear.

I think the point is that Vinnie has already done EVERYTHING he possibly could have to prove himself and what he is capable of to the world - many times over.

Now he has nothing left to prove. He is #1 and that's it... he can chill out a bit and have steady studio gigs... though I don't think he is "chillin out" at all! I am just saying the days of FURIOUS CHOPS circa '84 are behind him.

It's like if I... nevermind... [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

Ok Rudy, Suspiria and Cl War.

You guys are invading on my turf!! The automotive analygies are my job around here!! [img]wink.gif[/img]

I think Vinnie has gone from being a 69 Stroker Camaro with a 545 Cubic Inch Big Block to a Cadillac Escalade with a 1000HP twin-turbo'ed, de-stroked 348 cubic inch small block with electronic fuel injection. WHEWWWW!!!!

But lets not forget all the amenities like A/C, cruise control, electric windows, DVD player, killer stereo....etc. Lotsa more power yet so much more refined!!!

It's kinda like he was raw with brute power and force in his earlier years, but now he's got even more of that power on tap, but he just doesn't have to work as hard to make the same Horsepower (i.e. the rough idling Camaro vs. the smooth idling, quiet, 1000hp turbo motor)

I still to this day think some of his best playing was with Patatuchi and his solo albums. Especially the one with Weckl on one side, and Vince on the other. The phrasing!!! ugghghhh!!!! Those tom licks that sound like little sprits of fireworks.

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Originally posted by JoesMechanic:
I still to this day think some of his best playing was with Patatuchi and his solo albums. Especially the one with Weckl on one side, and Vince on the other. The phrasing!!! ugghghhh!!!! Those tom licks that sound like little sprits of fireworks.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was just listening to the first Patitucci solo record today as a matter of fact, and yes, it really is breathtaking (as well as unavailable anymore).

Are you guys talking about SKETCHES or another one? I don't remember Vinnie AND Weckl on one together! [img]frown.gif[/img]

Vinnie is playing on a Mahavishnu cover disc...I think he's not going to play like Phil Rudd on that one.

Vinnie just mature in his musical aspect so much that as a matter of fact he knows how to talk with less words in the drum set, is like a modern or sophisticalted talk, is not a traditional music he's a genious... Period

Fine Mechanic. You win. Oh well, we tried to sound professional [img]cool.gif[/img]

I think the title to this topic is absurd.

I was driving around thinking about this yesterday. It seems to me that Vinnie is way better now than he was. On some of the live stuff with Sting, you can hear Vinnie get a little to agro. He's way more musically minded now.

Although all that Randy Waldman Stuff, IMHO,shows his best USE of his chops to date. I stress use because the stuff on those 3 albums hits you not only in the technical depth, but the pure genius of his playing. Some of his older stuff doesn't give as much to his Genius as much as it does to his raw ability.

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Originally posted by CLWarunki:
Are you guys talking about SKETCHES or another one? I don't remember Vinnie AND Weckl on one together! [img]frown.gif[/img]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The first self-titled Patitucci disc.

Wha-?...Sweet Mother of Pearl and Paradiddles...are you guys outta yer trees, or are ya jes bored?

[I'm both...]

Answer: NAAHH.

He'll be knockin' the drums dead into his old age, like many another [Buddy, Bellson, Haynes, Elvin, etc]...

The only prime he's passed is the "-rib" they pass him from the catering service on every touring gig or studio seesion...as a matter of fact, we here should all chip in & buy him a p-rib dinner for all the amazing hours of inspirational playing he's mind-scromped us with.

And these *great topical debates* [img]tongue.gif[/img]

And maybe while we're at it we should buy a Mickey-D's slap-happy-meal for all the peeps that get TO'd by us talking about how VC is da "king" all the time... [img]wink.gif[/img]

I'm going to go practice some more "bustin' sa' hard Vinnieeee" when I'm done here...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 11, 2005 02:31 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

I think despite the fact that his older, still is one of the most-in demand session drummers and did a recent recording with Megadeath is an indication of "We haven't seen it all yet"

Many probably thought the same of Vinnie when he began touring with Joni Mitchell?

the answer to that is HAIL NO!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

i was there during that short baked potato clip of vinnie in january of 2003 and he played way beyond any video of him i've seen in the past.

Well,

I see Vinnie's journey as more of an evolution rather than just a burn-out or "past his prime" thing.

His playing has calmed, or perhaps become more appropriate for the typr of music he's playing now. He is maturing, so is his style...

MP

Well said Mark.
Vinnie's playing has and keeps evolving unlike DC(sorry but i had to say that [img]wink.gif[/img] )for the best as far as i can tell.
I'd say, that you can still feel the fire burning inside whenever he plays,but it's not as outed as it used to.Obvious to me that the genius is still very much there,but as someone said,he doesn't need to prove anything to anyone anymore.

I also feel that,he plays more for the music now.Not that he wasn't doing it before,but he's probably less into the drumming side of things.And i like it even better as he gets older.
He'll sure be the next SG in the years to come.I'm quite convinced about that.

But hey,he can still be a bad mofo whenever he fells like it.And i sure do hope he won't ever stop amazing us with his overwhelming creativity.

Now that i think about it,whenever i get to watch the BRM tape and i see him with the hairstyle,opening the score he's about to read,i think:'He makes me think of Mozart'.Everytime!!
The way he looks,the attitude,just everything reminds me of Mozart.At least as he was shown in Milos Forman's movie. [img]wink.gif[/img]

drumaddix......

We should all be as lucky as Vince to have such a passion for what we do as he, regardless of the field of work we are in.

As I've posted once here before. Watching Vince record was like watching a kid at play. So natural, still having fun at what he is doing. Watching him goof off during breaks was probably the best. Because in my eyes I saw an un-inhibited boy that just REALLY REALLY liked to play the drums!!!

Think of all the energy and vinegar that we as kids and young adults had?? People that bring that level of energy to their adult lives are like Mozart. The music was the "thing". Well, I feel, Vinnie has that special quality.

I think a good license plate frame for Vinnie would be, "Speak softly, but carry a big stick!!" [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because in my eyes I saw an un-inhibited boy that just REALLY REALLY liked to play the drums!!!

Joe-just turned into words what is such a fundamental notion of this job.
We PLAY music right?
Which means we have to have fun doing it.You should never do it if you feel you're not gonna have a ball out of it.It's child's play after all.
That's why we should keep what we call in french 'son ame d'enfant'.Keep being a kid as you grow old basically.Try to have fun out of everything you do and keep a curious eye opened to everything around you.
Don't take things too seriously cos life is just a big game.Sthg like that.

We're lucky to do sthg we love doing,and being allowed to play and have fun just like when you were a kid is ,to me,a priceless thing. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Great post Addix. It's important to realize that this holds true for any profession you will consider in the long run. I'd say two key components are to always be one step ahead of the competition and have fun with what you are doing!

Thanks Suspiria. [img]wink.gif[/img]
it feels awkward to try to express those 'deep'thoughts in a foreign language,but i'm glad you got it. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

When I sat just a few feet from Vinnie at a small jazz club not that long ago, it was obvious that this guy is more on fire now than when I saw him the first time in '85.

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Originally posted by drumaddix:
Thanks Suspiria. [img]wink.gif[/img]
it feels awkward to try to express those 'deep'thoughts in a foreign language,but i'm glad you got it. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course man, I understood your point exactly. Nothing wrong with your english!

For all you thinking he's slipping or getting soft with getting older need to witness some of the recent Baked Potato shows or boot-legs of him. More notes than digestible and with a just as crafty and musical of an approach, (most of the time) Back me up Defields, Holmes, Bueller, Bueller... [img]smile.gif[/img]
Sammy J

I would argue that he's in his prime, because he has the facilty, tempered by greater knowledge and maturity that only age and lots of (learned from) mistakes can bring.

Obviously he's playing differently than he did pre-Sting and whether that's "better" or not would of course be down to personal taste.

Also it's worth noting that while drums are a physical instrument, if you have good technique and avoid injury you can play at the highest level well into your 60's or 70's at a minimum. Given that, Vinnie has got years to go.

From a conceptual standpoint, he's obviously way ahead of where he was and yes, boots from the last 5 years bear that out. The Randy Waldman gig last year (which a number of HOD members attended) was on par with anything I've heard from him in any era.

About the only thing worse nowadays is he doesn't record or gig as much music that I enjoy so I don't listen to him much anymore. I'm looking forward to checking out that new Bromberg recording Joe's Mech sat in on though. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Derek!!!

Just wait for the Jeff berlin CD!!! Recorded at Brians house. Vince said he had a great time. I can't wait!!!

Of course, the older one gets the less energy & raw power they have. That's just the obvious natural state of the evolution of things. But this doesn't kick in until the latter years in life [as DDF said, mid-to-late 60s, 70s, or 80s...]

So, the long-time adage, ..."like fine, aged wine" comes to mind... [img]wink.gif[/img]

On Joes' que; Rumor has it that Chambers might be slated to play the upcoming Jeff Berlin tour. Anyone else hear this?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 14, 2005 01:23 AM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

"Think of all the energy and vinegar that we as kids and young adults had??"--JM

Was this some type of recipe at Mrs. Mechanic?s home growing up--energy and vinegar? [img]wink.gif[/img] Sorry couldn't resist that one.

I saw Joe Porcaro with his band Calamari (Emil Richards) and he displayed a clinic on jazz music and technique. He must be in his late 70's by now, and flowed easily with the music...D Garfield on keys that night. Also, Earl Palmer plays the same club and can still lay it down with his band. Proper technique is KEY.