Officiating

Fellas, and ladies, I hate to knock on my own "brethren" but I saw tonight at the RC/TS playoff game what some of you have been talking about this year. So far, I had not saw a game this season in which I thought things were uneven, or horribly called. The three fellas who worked the game, I know them from football, and have worked a game or two with a couple of them.

Tonight's display was just poor IMO. Especially in the second half. There were people who complained last Friday night, but I didn't think it was that bad. TS simply outplayed RC that night. I thought, as did a buddy of mine from TS who refs football with me, that calls may have went 60-40 TS, but nothing that made too much of a difference in the game.

Tonight, I just can't say the same thing. Fouls in the second half was 12-3, and RC only fouled twice IMO trying to stop the clock. A touch foul, or in one occasion a fly by, was a foul on one end, and a arm bar was nothing on the other although both teams were attacking the basket. I just don't know what to say fellas. It made me disappointed to be associated with those donning the stripes.

Quit your whining sore loser! [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Consistancy is the key. And the officials in the area are sorely lacking in that regard.

Well the fact that you put it on this forum away from piddly arguments, gets a thumbs-up from me. This is just another example of what I was talking with VT Hokie 22 and others about on the Sports Forum (TV beats Haysi by 40). Basketball officiating in this region spells doom for our teams upstate.

If we didn't have the officials to complain about, what would we complain about?

My hat's off to the guys and gals that do it, I used to ref basketball games years ago, didn't take me long to realize it was the fastest way in the world to make enemies.

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If we didn't have the officials to complain about, what would we complain about?

My hat's off to the guys and gals that do it, I used to ref basketball games years ago, didn't take me long to realize it was the fastest way in the world to make enemies.

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I can agree with that! I got there with 2 minutes left before halftime, and the fouls were at least even in the first half. I don't know if more should have been called one way or the other there, so I can't comment. I heard complaining on both sides.

In the second half I was mystified. Fouls weren't the only thing, but the biggest thing IMO.

Indian Dad that is the precise reason I put it here. No need to flame them out there for everyone to see, when it isn't going to accomplish anything, anyway. I was just really dissappointed in a game of that magnitude.

I saw games this year, where calls sort of escaped me I guess you could say. Overall though, in those games it was an evenly called game. I just couldn't say that last night.

I too have done the basketball ref thing a time or two, as well as coached. There's a certain degree of accountability to coaches. There should be that same degree to referees as well. I know that it's a tough job, but then again so is coaching.

Truthfully, thats what my rants have been about mostly. It's not just blasting away at officials. I know and appreciate the task that it is, but it has really had some poor examples the last few years at times, and instead of getting better, it seems to be getting worse.

I know that you're going to have some who gripe/complain no matter how even a game is called or how fair if they feel they don't get the right calls.

That's my thing too Rock...consistency. If you're going to call something a foul in the first half, call the same thing through the whole game. If something is a technical on one team, call it on the other team if they do it. I can understand if you're an official starting out, making horrible calls b/c you've not seen the game from an official's perspective that much and it takes court time to get good at it. If I tried to be an official, it would take me at least 5 years, if not longer, to get decent at it and be able to call a good consistent game...and even then I'd still make mistakes...BUT hopefully I would have improved.

That being said--there's such a thing as good experience and bad experience. If you're out there just calling whatever to your heart's content, and you're on a power-trip like some of these guys seem to be, then that's BAD experience. If you're out there honestly trying to call it down the middle and keep things consistent and within the rules, then that's good experience. Bad experience is what a lot of these officials around here keep getting...especially those 3 that reffed the Coeburn/Kelly game last week...if you've got to toss 1 or 2 rowdy fans out, that's officiating and keeping control. If you're stopping the game to actively scan the crowd to toss 3-4 more, then that's power-tripping and wrong.

Good experience means as an official yes you will make mistakes, you will get cussed, but you'll be improving as an official. Bad experience means you're making mistakes, but don't care one way or the other about getting better based on your mistakes--you're just out there for yourself, not for the kids. If you don't get better, you waste everyone's time and need to stop.

I think that one of the big problems that we have with officiating around here is that most of the officials are from this area, not that they aren't qualified, it is just that they all have their own prejudices, due to the nature of our small communities and the fact that they either live, work, or grew up in this area. It is hard when you are out there on the court to leave your personal bias behind completely, due to the fact that we are all human.

to a certain point, and towards certain officials i find this true......i know plenty of the officials and talked with some of them that went to local high schools, that say they have no ties with their old school, and call the game as fair as they can......

I agree, a lot of them can leave their past off the court, but for most ppl there are parts of the persona/psyche that are unconscious that influence "conscious" behaviors.

me personally think that when you sign up as an official you should have to put your alma mater, and should not be able to officite their games......no matter if you have any ties with them or not......in a close game, like you said the persona/physche could take over and make them make a call they normally would not make.......personally i don't see many refs making a call just to help a team out....but im sure its happened more than we realize....

UK5, I've seen games just this year where one official was scared to blow his whistle, and the other two seemed to assigned either the home or away team's violations/fouls. It's like they planned that out and gave that as an assignment to each ref--really really odd. I'm not saying that there were a few coincidental plays that happened, I'm saying this happened throughout the ballgame...at least until the 4th quarter, where consistency is of the essence anyways b/c you've reffed the game a certain way, and the coaches and players have had to adapt to what you called in quarters 1 thru 3...so why change in the 4th? Consistency isn't practiced enough.

And most of the time, in dealing with the officials and their alma mater, it's not a thing of trying to call a game to help out their HS of origin, it's a thing of having a beef w/certain schools or coaches and calling a game with that as a part of their basis.

I agree with you.....I watched the Pound/Clintwood game at Pound about a week ago, and i won't mention the refs names, but quarters 1 and 2 they got away with bloody murder......well they come out at half time, and they called [censored] fouls.......so yeah i agree how does a coach adjust at halftime or during the course of the game? he can't because of so much inconsitancy.....

and about having beef with certain schools.......schools are allowed to black ball refs......which i think is some of the problem......you get in good with the association and then you can get who you want.......i don't think they coaches should have an option.......but i do believe officials need to be evaluated, and the ones with the higher evaluations get the games that actually have significant meaning to them.....like the rye cove and twin springs game lastnight.

I think that evaluation is a good thing, but then you run into the problem of who does it? Do the fans or the principals? How do you ensure that it is reliable and that it accurately reflects performane in the game?

I think the association should be the ones who evaluate the refs.......I think they should have someone who travels for them and evaluates atleast 5 games of the official, and then they receive the score, and the top officials should get the tournaments.........thats just my personal opinion......

I understand where your coming from as well.........as well as the Craziefather, if you let the principals/coaches do it, they might give an official that does a fine job a bad evaluation because they have problems with that certain official............

Like I said before, the blackball is a nice tool but not really that useful in practice since you only control your homecourt and then not completely. If someone has to cancel, they take who they can get and its amazing how someone who knows a place doesn't want them there is awful quick to volunteer to go there [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'll mention one name that makes me mad, is seeing Robbie Perry ref a Gate City ball game, hell the man helps coach baseball there, and to me i don't think that is fair........

I agree 100% w/ u on the evaluations, really. It's just that there are a lot of logistic difficulties that arise when you try to tackle it.

Yeah I understand what your saying.....another problem that arises with the evaluations, is what if the person that evaluates you has some beef with you....of course your not getting a good rating......

really no chance of getting all the kinks out......just something we will have to [censored] and moan about and get over haha....

Yeah, its just hard to do anything around here b/c everyone knows everyone or knows something about everyone or has heard something about someone. Instead of six degrees of separation, we have like three. lol

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I'll mention one name that makes me mad, is seeing Robbie Perry ref a Gate City ball game, hell the man helps coach baseball there, and to me i don't think that is fair........

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I would agree, and luckily it is extremely rare for Robbie to ever have a GC game. I only know of one softball game Robbie has worked for them in years.

As for the grading system, I know the problem for that in football right now is a lack of officials overall. That was done, and still is when we have fewer games, and a few senior officials will go observe games.

I don't know if this is the case in basketball or not.

I agree that you should not officiate your schools games. I would not want a PV game for no man's money. I have to live in that town. Phil would not want me out there either simply because of the familiarity and the appearance of a 'homer'. I always put them down as a team that I do not want to work. I have enough problems working an Appy game because of the closeness to BSG and I go to church in that town. Anywhere I go though most know me because I have been doing this for a long time.

It just makes it difficult when you are trying to be fair and impartial when you know you are going to have ppl come up to you after the game somewhere and question your judgement. Officiating is one thing I hope that I never have to do again. I did it one time in Little League basketball and it resulted in a long scratch down the side of my dad's vehicle.

I know I couldn't do it and be fair. I'm too biased and I hold a grudge.

I try to respect those who can do it, and actually am much better than I used to be at questioning officials or making plans to burn them.

I could work any school in the area and know that I would not be biased for one or another. Often when I am doing a JV game for PV they get on me because I may be a little too tough on them. I try to be fair because these are kids and the petty junk of hating another team because of where they are from or who there coach is does not come into my mind. I am out there for the kids and no one else. If I have to get even with a coach by screwing his team then that does not make me much of a man or christian.

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I did it one time in Little League basketball and it resulted in a long scratch down the side of my dad's vehicle.

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see it's things like that, that is just rediculous. Parents take this stuff to seriously, I don't know if it's because they are living their glory days through their children or what but some take it way to seriously. That reminds of one time when I was helping coach little league football, I had this kid who I put at tight end, well his dad thought that he should be playing quarterback and he came over and got in my face calling me everything under the sun, at one point I actually thought the dude was going to hit me. But after the season the dad actually apologized for the way he acted, and his son was our best tight end.

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I agree that you should not officiate your schools games. I would not want a PV game for no man's money. I have to live in that town. Phil would not want me out there either simply because of the familiarity and the appearance of a 'homer'. I always put them down as a team that I do not want to work. I have enough problems working an Appy game because of the closeness to BSG and I go to church in that town. Anywhere I go though most know me because I have been doing this for a long time.

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I know what you mean there. I have had to work 3 RC games in the past. Two weren't that big of a deal, but 1 was against Honaker, and my cousin was so mad because I called PI on him. We were scheduled to do the RC/TS game year before, before being moved at the last minute to Pound/CW.

This being a crew with one from RC, one from TS, 2 from GC, and one from DB. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I could work any school in the area and know that I would not be biased for one or another. Often when I am doing a JV game for PV they get on me because I may be a little too tough on them. I try to be fair because these are kids and the petty junk of hating another team because of where they are from or who there coach is does not come into my mind. I am out there for the kids and no one else. If I have to get even with a coach by screwing his team then that does not make me much of a man or christian.

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I agree whole heartedly there also, and feel the same way.

I think that when it comes to LL that parents loose all sense of sanity. I mean my dad works with LL right now and it is insane the things that parents do and say and then they later come and apologize.

I think the officiating is pretty good except for that Edwards guy! He calls some of the worse calls I have ever seen! [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]